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Post by kaima on Mar 29, 2007 15:20:36 GMT -7
Why does everybody have a problem accepting child soldiers today? It is quite natural and common that children get out and kill along with older adults, and I believe it has always been so since our ancestors were spear chuckers. How many societies do not have some kind of ceremony marking the advent of adulthood at ages 12 or 13? There are barmitzvahs and confirmations and innumerable 'coming of age' ceremonies in many, many cultures.
One friend told me about her young boys "all boys are indestructible at 12". I remember being much the same way, knowing I was quite capable of most everything an adult could do, lacking physical strength but having the advantage of quick, small body and fast reflexes and an approach to doing things that would beat an adult. Them when I was 21 and drafted and met the stupidity of the military, it was obvious to me that they should have drafted me when I was 12 and not 21. By 21 I could easily recognize stupidity. At 12 I would have been much more of a true believer in whatever propaganda was handed to me. If I were a 12 year old in Iraq right now I would be interested in popping off a few of those unwelcome foreigners, or if I were a 12 year old Israeli or Palestinian, I would be happy to pop off a few of the SOB’s on the other side …. No big deal. Death is a part of life and there is a lot to be said for fighting for your ideals.
Kai When I was drafted
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Post by hollister on Mar 29, 2007 16:09:32 GMT -7
Pawian, Have you ever heard this sentiment/poem? - I am especially interested in your view of the version under the "New England Memorial" heading. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came... This poem in all its versions is often recited or reference in the US as a warning to people. Do you see this as an example of the over sentimentality you mention so often when discussing the Warsaw Uprising? Is this just a way for people who were not forced to make the choice to ease their guilt over the fact that they were spared that decision? Or is it truly a warning to us? and Kai, Yes the "invention of childhood" is a modern phenomena. It is only in very recent history that children have been allowed such a long period of idleness. Because we as a race can now afford such a thing. In fact in the USA it is only the last 100 years or so that children grew up in a household where they were biologically related to their parents!. Meaning a man would taker a younger wife - she often died in childbirth - he would remarry so he had someone to take care of the children - he would die and she would remarry. We have the luxury of thinking of childhood as a time to play and learn with little or no responsibilities. I guess one can argue (as seen in another thread hear on the boards) that children have too much time and due to lack of parental, school, and societal, supervision are acting out in violence.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Apr 10, 2007 14:53:04 GMT -7
Oh Dear Pawain These are children! Why for they are in combat? For they should be only in school! It is murderess to send children into war as combatants. For I am sorry my friend, but, our children need to be home and near their mothers arms, that is where they need to be.... Charles I am afraid adult Poles too often thought that children had to sacrifice their blood too in order to rescue the motherland. I believe this is a completely facked up concept. This is a re-enactement of Warsaw Uprising fight. Pay attention in in 3.30 minute. The kid is trying to collect a wounded German`s machine gun. Really heart-rending scene.
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Post by joanzaniskey on Apr 10, 2007 20:43:06 GMT -7
Pawain, This you tube film of a re- enactment of the Warsaw uprising is ridiculous. The cable spools were not in existence at the time and the kid was used as a symbol. Have you any documented evidence that children were used as freedom fighters? I know that teenagers were servicemen during WW II on both sides, but what reasonable adult would allow a CHILD to enter a combat zone? The film is amateurish and panders to negative emotions that should be resolved by more constructive methods.
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Post by Pawian on May 2, 2007 12:57:45 GMT -7
Pawain, This you tube film of a re- enactment of the Warsaw uprising is ridiculous. Hmm, to be frank, all re-enactments, whether concerning WW2 or medieval times, are ridiculous. You will never achieve this reality level which was in original. I must disagree. Germans used to put cables from Berlin to Eastern front. How were they stored? Not on spools? Besides, I don`t suppose the guys responsible for the re-enactment tried to distort or ignore history. Unfortunately it wasn`t a symbol. You were not attentive when I posted a few pics presenting boy insurgents. I feel obliged to show more: The girl nurse Corporal Witold Modelski „Warszawiak” - born on 11 November 1932 so he was only 12 in 1944. For his outstanding courage he was awarded The Medal of Honour. He is killled in action on 20 September 1944 roku, defending one of the last stands -a house at 1 Wilanowska street His grave To see more photos click Children on this site. www.warsawuprising.com/photos.htmApart from photos, there are multiple reports, documents and diaries from the time. That`s what happened and that`s why I put it in the thread Polish controvercies. Of course the film is amateurish. It isn`t a hit war movie "Saving Private Ryan" by Steven Spielberg or George Lucas. What do you mean???
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Post by Pawian on Jun 27, 2007 12:40:58 GMT -7
I want to sum up the discussion on fighting children and finish the topic. I don`t like throwing books away. Even the most boring and silly ones will always find their place on my shelves. I have an old textbook for Polish classes in primary school. It was reprinted in 1975. I didn`t use it at school because we had newer publications. But I always liked reading it at home. Apart from a few openly socialist texts and poems (About Lenin, of course), the rest of the book was "neutral." I loved some of these texts, I used to read them very often. One of them was "Giant" about a boy who fought in the Warsaw Uprising. Let me translate some passages: "" Those who lived in Warsaw during the Nazi occupation surely remember this tall building on the corner of Independence Avenue and Odyńca Street. It was very popular, especially well- known among residents of Mokotów district during the Uprising. The house was chosen by a group of young insurgents for their defence post. Several times during the day the tanks crept with a rattle towards the tall building, chipped the walls with shells and were pushed back by the boys who had just learnt how to use their arms. The tiny group of insurgents had Molotov cocktails, machine pistols and grenades as their only weapon against tanks. Tanks, artillery, rocket launchers and Stuka bombers.
Defenceless against machine fire, helpless under the hail of bombs dropped from planes - the insurgents held their post with stubborn perseverance, having their machine pistols and Molotov cocktails.
In the group there was a 14 year old boy. I don`t know his name. I don`t even know if he survived. They called him "Giant". You should know that he was short, skinny and had a high-pitched voice of a child.""I am writing about this to show that even cummunist rule didn`t change certain Polish concepts on children in war. It seems that Poles for a long time during 20th century considered children warriors as something patriotic and normal. The motherland in need required sacrifices, even from children. I was brought up in the same romantic atmosphere, I was infected with those concepts too. It took me a lot of time to reason it out with myself but some traces of the infection still remain in me, I am afraid. The illustration from the book.
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Post by leslie on Jun 27, 2007 12:59:01 GMT -7
Kaima (and Pawi if he's interested) Just as a point of information, boys and girls used to 'come of age' in the UK at age 21; it is now treated as 18 - this is the age at which they can now vote, so on that basis they are no longer children but adults! Leslie Just as another point of interest, 16 is the minimum age when sex is legal - so watch it if you come to the UK!!
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Post by Pawian on Jul 2, 2007 7:43:59 GMT -7
Just as another point of interest, 16 is the minimum age when sex is legal - so watch it if you come to the UK!! 15 is the minimum age in Poland so watch it when you come here!!!
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Post by Pawian on Oct 31, 2007 13:27:08 GMT -7
Controversy 3
Today Russians are releasing an epic movie about their Troubled Times when the Polish army led by Polish nobles captured Moscow, occupied it for 2 years at the cost of unspeakable atrocities (cannibalism!) and finally was ousted by the Russian common uprising.
The trailer of the film.
One funny scene in it: Polish winged riders appear on the horizon and a Russian girl cries out: Mummy, angels!
Poles can feel proud because only the French repeated this stunt of taking Moscow. Even Hitler, though he had the best army, couldn`t do it.
But seriously speaking, the film should remind Poles that they weren`t always victims of Russian imperialism. Once it was Poles who tried to subjugate Russia.
Two powerful countries were engaged in wrestling which finally ended with a victory of one side. It wasn`t Polish side but we shouldn`t complain or bear a grudge against Russians today.
To be honest, if they hadn`t subjugated Poles, it would have been the other way round. Russians were fighting for the greatness of their country in the same way as Poles did.
The wrestling was a fair deal - two contenders tried to defeat each other with all they had. Poles lost the fight because they were inconsistent and messy. Russians won because they were better organised and persistent in conquest.
I don`t understand why some Poles are so fervently anti-Russian today? There is no reason for it - we are ancestors of Poles who once happily joined the wrestling fight and, unfortunately, lost it. We should accept the aftermath results too - the lost contender was subjugated with all the consequences: occupation, partitions, wars, lost Risings, Katyn.
Say something if you think I am wrong.
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Post by Pawian on Jan 3, 2008 14:51:51 GMT -7
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Post by valpomike on Jan 3, 2008 19:37:18 GMT -7
Children need to be given a chance to grow up before going off to war, unless, there is no choice. Only after all the men are used up.
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Post by Pawian on Jan 4, 2008 2:23:53 GMT -7
Children need to be given a chance to grow up before going off to war, unless, there is no choice. Only after all the men are used up. But, after all adult men are used up, can children carry any weight? Will their participation change anything?
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Post by valpomike on Jan 4, 2008 8:02:22 GMT -7
It has in the past, in many places, and still does in some places now. How old are children?
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Post by Pawian on Jan 4, 2008 13:47:05 GMT -7
It has in the past, in many places, and still does in some places now. How old are children? 12?
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Post by Pawian on Jan 6, 2008 4:00:45 GMT -7
Pawian, Another observation on the exploitation of children during desperate circumstances even if they are willing. No blame intended. I know now that "child soldiers" were a part of many wars, and they were willing, but that does not forgive their use by adults to satisfy adult inabilty to fulfill success/victory without them. No matter that the succes/victory was war or sex. I can put my signature under this opinion without hesitation.
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