Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Jul 31, 2007 16:04:44 GMT -7
They're all politicians, to me. I don't discriminate. I still cherish certain ideals. To me, a good priest or a monk should possess those features I have mentioned before: tolerance, forgiveness, humility, modesty, honesty. If not, he isn`t a clergyman, he is a politician or a businessman and all his talk about God and faith must sound suspicious, mustn`t it? That`s how I receive Father Rydzyk: I am highly suspicious of him. I agree with this notion too. I agree with you here too. I have never written that Radio Maryja should be closed down. Apart from those controvercial programmes, most of its contents is purely religious with mass services broadcasts, for example. Millions of people listen to them, that`s all right with me. What I have always meant in my discussions and criticism of Radio Maryja is the feeling of sadness that the word of God is abused there too often and the beautiful notion "love thy brother" is too often forgotten. Instead of propagating messages of love and peace, they propagate hate. I also didn`t like Schindler`s List, I preferred the Pianist by Roman Polański much better. But it`s not the case of titles. I gave the quote to exemplify the typical reaction of Radio speakers to the news that some Jewish topic receives positive reactions somewhere in Poland. In this case it was Schindler`s List, in another it could be The Pianist. Not always. The Pianist is a faithful rendition of a book by a Polish Jew who avoided Holocaust. Few? How many have you heard of? I have read about quite many. One pogrom in Kielce after the war is enough. When it`s too late? The thought of antisemitism has already proved how deadly it can be. We don`t need to wait for the act to know if this kind of thought poses danger or not. We know it already from WW2 experience. Personally I accept and respect it. It was Nazis` plan to get rid of Jews that`s why I use the term. Of course, ordinary Germans also took part in it. As for Polish antisemitism, I am pretty sure that nobody in the wild bloodthirsty horde which murdered Jews in Jedwabne or Kielce ever belonged to Endecja. They were simple antisemitic Poles. I don`t feel uneasy when I see some people disagreeing with me. When I observe them and see their intolerance, fanatism and hostility towards others, I am only more convinced that I am right. And the other way round - when I read or listen to people who disagree with Father Rydzyk and I see how tolerant, noble and humane they are, I am even more convinced that I am right. That`s good. The only problem is that you could appear too late to save them hahahaha. I don`t advocate any police. I am just critical of Father Rydzyk, I don`t agree with his opinions, that`s why I don`t listen to Radio Maryja and I am sickened with its contents and Father Rydzyk`s activity. I simply deeply regret that the station which deems itself catholic can be so unchristian. That`s all.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Jul 31, 2007 16:20:41 GMT -7
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Post by ludikundera on Jul 31, 2007 16:25:45 GMT -7
Ah, now I understand. You are disappointed with Radio Maryja because you think it pretends to be a Catholic radio station while it actually propagates un-Catholic views. Thank you for the clarification. That's something I can understand.
Although this of somewhat off-topic: I'd still argue with you about using movies in classrooms. The Pianist is as fake as Schindler's List. Its images are created now, they are not real images of an event, and sometimes they're digitally manipulated to divorce them from reality even further. Yet when a movie becomes popular, its depiction of an event can become the official depiction: the Normandy invasions in Saving Private Ryan or Solidarity in Wajda's Man of Iron. In each case, there's a motive to making these depictions (besides money). In the first, it's to glorify the American soldier; in the second, it's to glorify Solidarity (and it's even worse here, because Wajda intentionally mixes characters with real people playing themselves).
It's a bit silly, but I know that one of the first images that comes to my mind when I think of D-Day is Tom Hanks! I don't think people should think of Liam Neeson or a little girl in a red coat when they think of the Holocaust. Or, if they do, they should know that what they're thinking of is fiction. Which is often something that can be done, if teachers introduce movies as movies. When I watch Schindler's List in class, it was introduced as nearly hard fact.
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Post by ludikundera on Jul 31, 2007 16:27:08 GMT -7
And, yes, I did miss that discussion. Reading it over, I see that you and I don't think so differently after all!
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Post by kaima on Jul 31, 2007 22:06:04 GMT -7
I vote for him being a villain. No one in religion should mix in politics (and politics should not mix in religion). Any "religious' person who preaches hatred and intolerance, as he reportedly does, should be the first to be burned at the stake when this punishment is revived with the coming of the New Dark Ages.
Kai
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Aug 1, 2007 1:40:05 GMT -7
Thanks for the links. Yes, yes, I realize you don't like Radio Maryja for stirring up anti-Jewish sentiment. That part I understand very clearly. I'm just unsure of what it is about anti-Jewish sentiment that makes you so sick. I don't mean to attack you or make you angry, I'm just curious and want to understand your point of view. And murder is murder, no matter the motivation or the victim. And talk is just talk, and thoughts are thoughts, and shouldn't be punished or made illegal. When you explain that you don't like anti-Semitism because it makes you sick, I have trouble processing that because anti-Semitism doesn't make me sick. Peanut butter makes me sick, but there's a biological reason for that. The sickness remains a mystery. What I do understand is that you don't like Radio Maryja because it is anti-Semitic, and Polish anti-Semitism makes you sick. You must be very curious to ask such questions hahahaha. We simply like certain food or not because it either appeals to our senses of smell or sight or not. Personally I love peanut butter and I don`t understand how somebody may feel aversion to it. I could ask you the same question: can you explain why you don`t like peanut butter? Have you made a scientific analysis which ingredient of peanut butter makes your senses uneasy? And why? My aversion to antisemitism is caused by the same unknown reasons. It is deep in my psyche that everywhere I hear antisemtic remarks in which Jews are debased and treated like dehuminised rubbish which can be killed, gassed and burnt easily, I recall all the Jewish victims, not only those from holocaust, but also before (pogroms were not the invention of the 19 century, they had started much earlier). Most of these victims died at hands of Christians who presumed it was a pious act to kill Jews, enemies of Jesus. Today as a Christian I feel obliged to pay respect to all those victims. Objecting to acts of antisemitism, in whatever form they are, even in words or talk, I respect the memory of all Jews who suffered innocently in the past. Something like that. I accept the freedom of speech. I repeat: the atmosphere in Radio Maryja makes me sad but I don`t want to limit them in any way. It is their business, I am not going to listen to it, even when I am older, scared of passing away. I consider them false prophets who deceive many.
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Post by ludikundera on Aug 1, 2007 3:12:04 GMT -7
Actually, I'm allergic to peanut butter (peanuts, in general). That's what I meant. Guess it's the allergens that make me sick...
;D
Thanks for the yet-more-thorough explanation. I still can't say I understand, but I guess the fault is mine. I'm like a dog: you keep explaining and probably saying all the right things, but all I hear is some human making noises. I'll go back to chewing on my rubber toys now.
It has been an interesting discussion, though.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Aug 1, 2007 8:24:05 GMT -7
Actually, I'm allergic to peanut butter (peanuts, in general). That's what I meant. Guess it's the allergens that make me sick... I am allergic to Polish xenophobia, racial prejudice, bombastic nationalism and filthy antisemitism. That`s what I meant. Guess it`s the utter ignorance and stupidity in it that makes me sick..... OK, I will be more brutal in my explanations. When someone abuses your mother or wife or your family, calls them names and wants to fight, you probably feel bad about it and react in a proper way. Suppose that someone, surprised, asks you a question: why do you behave like that? Why are you overreacting? Wouldn`t you consider it silly? The same with my reaction to antisemitic acts. When Jews are abused only for the reason of being Jewish, I feel as if my family was abused. Any questions why I feel like that sound a bit silly. Sorry.
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Post by ludikundera on Aug 1, 2007 11:58:22 GMT -7
Whether xenophobia, nationalism, anti-Semitism are ignorant and stupid is subjective. The existence of allergens is not. That's what I meant.
Ah, so you are Jewish or have Jewish family members. I see. So it's like a personal insult. I can understand that. If I were Jewish, maybe I'd feel the same way. Plus, coupled with your belief that religious leaders shouldn't abuse religion for their own, hateful, ends, I begin to sense why your feelings are so strong. I just lack your motivating factors; that's probably why I'm not as affected.
(Perhaps we also have a different interpretation of Polish history, which changes how we feel: where you see pogroms and hate and prejudice, I see a European refuge and years and years of living together.)
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Aug 1, 2007 12:29:52 GMT -7
Whether xenophobia, nationalism, anti-Semitism are ignorant and stupid is subjective. Really? You should explain it because your reasoning is becoming more and more puzzling to me here.... hahahahaha Don`t imagine too much. No, I am not Jewish and I don`t have any members in my family hahahahahaha. But I certainly wouldn`t mind that at all if I had. What are you more affected by then? Are you human at all or are you a cyborg? hahahahahahahaha Yes, throughout centuries Poland was a shelter for Jews expelled from other parts of Europe . Poles hosted the forlorn nation and in some way we can be proud of. But not to the end. Beside blatant antisemitism of individuals there was another attitude cherished by the Polish majority - indifference. Centuries- long coexistence didn`t make Poles believe that Jews were part of the nation. It was clearly visible during the war when most Poles expressed their uninterest in Jewish problems. It was visible in 1968 when most Poles didn`t refuse to join the antisemitic campaign incited by communists.
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Post by ludikundera on Aug 1, 2007 13:33:33 GMT -7
What do I have to explain? If I say that trees are good, that's a subjective statement. It's not an objective truth. Sure, trees may be good because they allow us to breathe; but, on the other hand, they can be bad because they create shade and prevent sunlight from reaching other plants, or they can fall over and wreck homes, or they can get in the way of building a home. It's possible to argue both cases.
Now:
When I say that I'm allergic to peanuts, that's not a subjective statement; it's objective.
When you say that "Polish xenophobia, racial prejudice, bombastic nationalism and filthy antisemitism" are utterly ignorant and stupid, that's subjective, like trees are good.
Cyborg, if to be human means that one must have a faith in religious institutions and a familial closeness to Jews.
Let me 'splane:
I'm white. If someone calls a black person a n*gger, I can't say I'm anything other than indifferent. I don't get offended, I don't join in the ridicule or the defense.
I'm not a Jew. If someone calls a Jewish person a greedy kike, I can't say I'm anything other than indifferent. I don't get offended, I don't join in the ridicule or the defense.
I'm Polish. If someone calles me a dumb pollack, I'm no longer indifferent.
Why?
Because the insult is directed at me, and because I'm Polish.
As to the first part of your question:
I'm affected by a good argument, something that makes sense to me. Usually, this argument that makes sense to me includes things a cyborg like me can process: logic, facts, and other inhuman factors.
That doesn't make me proud, any more than Jedwabne makes me ashamed. In hindsight, I'd say both were mistakes: one on a national scale and one on a village-scale blown into national scale.
Let x be assistance, y be indifference, and z be hindrance.
x = +1 y = 0 z = -1
Therefore, I see indifference as a neutral position: neither good nor bad.
I believe in the value of selfishness, you could say: that the pursuit of my own well-being is the most important thing. Therefore, I try to stay in my 0 position as long as I don't have a self-serving reason to either add or subtract 1. If I go up, and assist someone, it's purely for my own gain (like when I argue for the important of free speech: I do this because I want free speech). If I go down, and hinder someone, it's, again, to help myself somehow, and I have to decide what's more important to me: dealing with my conscience, or reaping the benefits.
The irony is: this is what some people (the "anti-Semites") would call a Jewish mentality! Although I if I said it, it would be philo-Semitic rather than anti-Semitic!
If a cyborg can be either... I'm not sure.
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Post by kaima on Aug 1, 2007 13:48:58 GMT -7
I vote for him being a villain. No one in religion should mix in politics (and politics should not mix in religion). Any "religious' person who preaches hatred and intolerance, as he reportedly does, should be the first to be burned at the stake when this punishment is revived with the coming of the New Dark Ages. Kai You guys are going to jabber the guy to death! Let's be merciful, declare his trail fair, ended, and get on with lynching the fellow! Eh, what? Kai
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Post by Jaga on Aug 1, 2007 13:51:51 GMT -7
I do believe that father Rydzyk is more villain than a saint also, although I am still for a freedom of speech. His very strange "poems" are available on the internet. You can try to translate it if you want.... especially the women about women who throw themselves into him.... serwisy.gazeta.pl/kraj/1,34317,4324430.html
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Aug 3, 2007 12:28:16 GMT -7
When you say that "Polish xenophobia, racial prejudice, bombastic nationalism and filthy antisemitism" are utterly ignorant and stupid, that's subjective, like trees are good. I don`t care if they are subjective or objective statements. I believe so and that`s enough for me. If it isn`t enough for you, it`s your problem, not mine and I can`t help you more than I did with my explanations. Than we are very different because I would feel offended on behalf of my brother and probably I would react. It`s too late, my dear. You should be offended before when niggers and kikes were used. It is always so that after niggers and kikes there is Pollack, spic, wop and other. Don`t you really understand it? I don`t believe it after reading about the Rising hahahahaha Mistakes? I thought they were crimes. Sorry, it is completely lost on me. I was always very poor at maths. I preferred humanities. We are really very different. I am not like that but I know there are such people. It`s an attitude which I don`t share. [/quote]
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Aug 3, 2007 12:40:03 GMT -7
His very strange "poems" are available on the internet. You can try to translate it if you want.... especially the women about women who throw themselves into him.... serwisy.gazeta.pl/kraj/1,34317,4324430.html They are not real poems. They are fragments of his lectures which were given a form of a poem by a professional poetess, the wife of Stanisław Barańczak, btw. She noticed that Rydzyk`s opinions expressed during lectures resemble poems without rhymes.
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