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Post by Jaga on Sept 1, 2007 8:39:24 GMT -7
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Post by leslie on Sept 1, 2007 11:27:16 GMT -7
A slight correction Jaga! The Germans invaded Poland on 1 September, but the British and French who really started WWII declared war on Germany on 3 September. Thus speaketh the Pedant
Leslie
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Post by bescheid on Sept 1, 2007 14:21:24 GMT -7
Jaga
I have forgotten yes, 1 Sept. 1939 was the war in Poland...I was not born yet then. Not until the following year.
I was reading your url of {Long Shadows of War}. Whilst reading, I was wondering why it looks so familiar, your history is written very much as of ours! For as a general personal rule, other then on the forum, I fairly avoid any war time conversation with Americans on this subject. For our histories are so different,and their prospectives are different.
It is very interesting to hear of some one else though with their experiences from their point of view, for we are all different and as so, our experiences are so different, but in some cases, not so different.
I think perhaps though, we as Europeans, are more experienced in our prospectives for we were there. Our experiences were not from a history book written by some one else, but in opposite, being as younger, our eyes observed in first hand of what others later book written.
Leslie remembers his childhood and the precautions taken with them as children. The bombings and destruction to his country.
And your country, being over run and portioned off for occupation/administration purposes. For those of your country of Poland and their experiences, are important to all of us. For now we here, are survivors of a long past terrible war. For what ever the actual reason, we were children at the mercy of a world that was on fire. And aftermath of this, expected to take up and correct the mistakes of our elders. On the surface, this assumed responsibility passed on to us, was not fair and was a damning condemnation to our future.
This was not to be an option for the grown children of Poland with the Soviet Occupation. I would some times wonder if this was the actual reason of the occupation, to insure the safety of the Soviet Union from such an action taken out of revenge.
On the surface, we as the inheritors of this destroyed world handed to us, we could have adopted the attitude of {go to hell you louses, we will go our own way and build what we want, and it will not be your way. Our revenge will be our fortunes} But, of course we as survivors did not that. The history books written by the professors of the world, recorded the opposite. And history of today bears this out.
What I have read of the American home experience is also very interesting. For the fear of invasion of the Japanese military and of the fire balloons and bomber balloons that were wind drifted over the Western US was a real threat. Of the Japanese invasion of the North Islands of Alaska, was a threat that was real. And of course the Hawaiian bombing disaster that sank so many American based ships.
It was a true world war with disparate possibilities other then the out come we know of today.
Charles
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Post by Jaga on Sept 1, 2007 20:10:46 GMT -7
Charles,
the world changed a lot. I do not think that people in Poland live still under the shadows of war. You know how many people critized Kaczynski for the reference to WW II and Germany. The times really changed. We remember the war more as a historical event that something which is still with us... God bless.
+++For the fear of invasion of the Japanese military and of the fire balloons and bomber balloons that were wind drifted over the Western US was a real threat. Of the Japanese invasion of the North Islands of Alaska, was a threat that was real+++
I did not know that. But it is interesting. Today I watched a film about life in Hong Kong from National Geographic, it showed air invasion of China and Hing Kong. It is so amazing that in the same time so many world power were doing so many evil things, not only Germany but also Japan and Russia!
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Post by Jaga on Sept 1, 2007 20:22:11 GMT -7
A slight correction Jaga! The Germans invaded Poland on 1 September, but the British and French who really started WWII declared war on Germany on 3 September. Thus speaketh the Pedant Leslie But what really French and English did to help Poland? They did not attack Germans at all. I think that still September 1st holds as the beginning of WW II at least for us Poles, especially since nothing changed after France and GB officially declared war. here is more info about the controversy: The year generally given is 1939 However, one can make out a case for other dates for the start of WW2. One can say that the war started at different times, for different countries. Most historians agree the "world war" started in 1937 or in 1939. The most commonly accepted date is either September 1st or 3rd, 1939. The date is debated, as the following events are cited as possible starting points: 1 September 1939: The German invasion of Poland. 3 September 1939: France and Britain declared war on Germany. (Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa followed by 10 September). In Russia and in some other countries of the former Soviet Union: 22 June 1941 (German attack on the USSR). wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_World_War_2_start |
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Post by Jaga on Sept 1, 2007 20:22:59 GMT -7
Here is more about the ceremonies in Poland.
Poland marks 68th anniversary of WW2 outbreak
01.09.2007
Poland marks the 68th anniversary of the outbreak of World War 2.
Celebrations began at 4.45 am in Westerplatte, on the coast of the Baltic Sea. Representatives of the government, local authorities, veterans, clergy and scouts gathered in front of the Defenders of the Coast memorial. Among those present was Polish Prime Minister Jaros³aw Kaczynski who called for memory and respect of the events from 68 years ago.
Poland was the first country to stand up against Hitler. Several Central European states agreed to cooperate with the rising totalitarian regime, but Poland still undertook an uneven fight with the aggressor even when just days later, Russia attacked Poland from the East.
'We were the first and we should keep reminding that, as that was a day of glory and greatness of our nation,' said Polish Prime Minister Jaros³aw Kaczynski, adding that Poland's attitude protected Europe from even greater losses and cruelty of war.
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Post by bescheid on Sept 2, 2007 13:17:35 GMT -7
A slight correction Jaga! The Germans invaded Poland on 1 September, but the British and French who really started WWII declared war on Germany on 3 September. Thus speaketh the Pedant Leslie But what really French and English did to help Poland? They did not attack Germans at all. I think that still September 1st holds as the beginning of WW II at least for us Poles, especially since nothing changed after France and GB officially declared war. here is more info about the controversy: The year generally given is 1939 However, one can make out a case for other dates for the start of WW2. One can say that the war started at different times, for different countries. Most historians agree the "world war" started in 1937 or in 1939. The most commonly accepted date is either September 1st or 3rd, 1939. The date is debated, as the following events are cited as possible starting points: 1 September 1939: The German invasion of Poland. 3 September 1939: France and Britain declared war on Germany. (Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa followed by 10 September). In Russia and in some other countries of the former Soviet Union: 22 June 1941 (German attack on the USSR). wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_World_War_2_startJaga I have often found it interesting as in the out look of other Western histories of the war. Many simply follow a similar line without much substance, just academic writing. I so find very interesting is the histories as written by for an excellent example, your Poland. It may or not surprise you, but, what I have read is very close to our written history. I think perhaps though, it should be known that our war was actually placed into practice in 1936-1939 Spanish Civil War. This was used as a laboratory for weapons and doctrine. The perfection of combined arms {airsupport/panzer and naval} was developed into perfection of {Blitzkrieg} tactics. In all this time, the West sat back and watched. Only the Soviets offered assistance to the Republikan Government of Spain. The invasion of Poland was not a beginning, it was a result of many actions preceding the many previous actions. info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/history/WWII/1939/link.shtmlMy country at this time, held the most powerful military in the world, or so it must have seemed. But, in fact, this was just an allusion. I was not aware of some facts, until my conscription {Wehrpflicht} into the Bundeswehr for my 9 months service obligation. We then complete our ground training {Grundwehrdienst}{3 months} is our Kombat training period. Whilst during this training period, mine was designated to {7th {GE} PanzerDivision} as so, requirement was of Panzer school of {Applied Kombat Tactical Techniques}. Our instructors and commanders were from the war years, and as so, very well experienced. Our machines we possessed, were the American M47 under the {Mutual Defense Aid Programme}, these were modified to our specifications with fitment of a 115 mm main Kannon and higher count ammunition storage racks in the turret with higher out put motor installed V12 petrol of 810 HP. They were good machines but, noisy, cold in winter,hot in summer, and maintenance intensive. But a good machine until our new developed Leopard 1 machines would be available. It was whilst in tactics training I was made aware of how vulnerable we were in the Polish invasion. Whist committed to the East, the Britisch and French had a great advantage with attack upon our Western border for most of our military was committed to the East. It would have taken close to a month in transport of required equipment/accompanied support consisting of ammunition,fuel transfers, troop support and spare parts as bare essentials. But, the French choose to dig them selves in and wait until their turn to be over run. It was stupid and militarily absolute madness of a waste to the extent; they lost their country to superior tactics and the British lost a great deal of good military people and equipment for the failure of the French. Much of our armour was very poor in quality, underpowered, overheated in heavy use, and poorly gunned. Whilst the newly developed PanzerKampfwagen {Armoured Car} was highly excellent in as much to many of the newly developed troop weapons such as some various machine pistol of 9 mm Kal and MG-42. The British and French failed to use proper tactics in rapid mobile use of kombat troops/tanks in a most opportune time, and as so, lost the window of opportunity. For our forces would surely have been defeated with an invasion through the rear door so to speak. If committed to in a successful manner, our history today, would be a very much different matter. Charles |
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Post by leslie on Sept 4, 2007 7:54:51 GMT -7
Being a Brit, albeit of long ago Polish origin, I reject the Polish claims about the non-help given to them by the Brits and the French when they were invaded by the Nazis on 1 September. Both Britain and France kept their word and declared war on Germany, thus starting the World War II. Remembering that it took Britain and its allies from 1939 to 1945 to reach Berlin, how on Earth can the Poles not understand that it would have been impossible for the Brits and the French to sweep across the Low Countries and the warring Nazis in a week or so in 1939 in time to save Poland! It may have been more advantageous if the Poles had recognised their Pact with the Russians, although it is a questions whether the Poles at that time would have preferred their country (probably the first time in its history that it was a 'Polish' country) to be controlled by the Nazis or the Reds. At least Britain and France held to their Agreement with Poland and declared war on Nazi Germany when Poland was invaded.
What I do feel is against the British and French Governments pre- September 1939, when they entered into that ridiculous agreement knowing that they could not withhold it. Poland might as well blame France for it all for collapsing early in the war with their 'battle plan'.
I would recommend that people before making comments of this nature should read Norman Davies's 'God's Playground' - the history of the present day Poland from the time it was a miscellaneous collection of 'Slavs' to the present day.
Leslie
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george
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Post by george on Sept 8, 2007 9:31:23 GMT -7
"A slight correction Jaga! The Germans invaded Poland on 1 September, but the British and French who really started WWII declared war on Germany on 3 September. Thus speaketh the Pedant
Leslie"
Leslie!! What kind of history have youv'e been reading? Revisionist history no doubt. To declare that it was " the British and French who started WW2 is absurd! Any kid who has studied this war in High School should be able to tell you how this war was started. Like i said in a previous posting. Beware of " wolves in sheeps clothing" in so far as the history is concerned.
Next thing you know wewill be taught that American instigated the Arabs and we were the blame for the 9/11 attack. How could you possibly blame the Brits and the French for starting WW2?? This is irresponsible.
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george
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Post by george on Sept 8, 2007 9:41:20 GMT -7
By the way Leslie, the Brits and the French did not bring crematorians with them when the war was started by " them". Ughh!
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Pawian
European
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Post by Pawian on Sept 8, 2007 10:17:05 GMT -7
Leslie!! What kind of history have youv'e been reading? Revisionist history no doubt. To declare that it was " the British and French who started WW2 is absurd! Any kid who has studied this war in High School should be able to tell you how this war was started. Like i said in a previous posting. Beware of " wolves in sheeps clothing" in so far as the history is concerned. Next thing you know wewill be taught that American instigated the Arabs and we were the blame for the 9/11 attack. How could you possibly blame the Brits and the French for starting WW2?? This is irresponsible. Leslie probably meant the policy of appeasement which was advertised by British and French politicians as a remedy for all conflicts in Europe but which ended in such a disaster. "Breeding the monster" by allies didn`t concern only Stalin in 40s, but also Hitler in 30s. |
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Post by leslie on Sept 8, 2007 10:47:37 GMT -7
George
Sorry, but 'Rubbish'!!
If Britain and France had not previously signed with Poland a treaty to go to war to try to help them, the scenario could have been that the Nazis invaded Poland on 1 September 1939, and without that Treaty the Allies may have done nothing. So the "World War II" would have been Germany against Poland - a war lasting about a month. Without France and Britain, and eventually the USA, eventually invading Europe to beat the Nazis down, the full military force of German would have been available to them to keep Poland down and, of course, presumably carry on to conquer Russia.
So if the children in Poland are taught that the WWII started on 1 September, this is the 'revisionist' history. Germany 'declared war' on Poland by invading it on 1 September, and Britain and France, with nominal support from Poland, declared war on Germany and a little later Italy, thus starting the World War, not just the invasion of one country.
None of this in my mind decries the role of Poland in the battle against the Nazis. When they were able to fight directly, they did so with bravery, and they maintained an active partisan follow-up keeping many Nazi troops busy until Russia swept over to dominate Poland.
George, to me this is Reality history not Revisionist.
Leslie
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Sept 8, 2007 11:39:09 GMT -7
If Britain and France had not previously signed with Poland a treaty to go to war to try to help them, the scenario could have been that the Nazis invaded Poland on 1 September 1939, and without that Treaty the Allies may have done nothing. So the "World War II" would have been Germany against Poland - a war lasting about a month. Without France and Britain, and eventually the USA, eventually invading Europe to beat the Nazis down, the full military force of German would have been available to them to keep Poland down and, of course, presumably carry on to conquer Russia. So if the children in Poland are taught that the WWII started on 1 September, this is the 'revisionist' history. Germany 'declared war' on Poland by invading it on 1 September, and Britain and France, with nominal support from Poland, declared war on Germany and a little later Italy, thus starting the World War, not just the invasion of one country. Britain and France signed a treaty with Poland. Poles strongly believed that after the German invasion of their country allied troops would actively take part in war. Mere declaration on 3 September meant nothing for Poles then and still today. The propaganda of Western help before the war was so strong that later fighting Polish soldiers often didn`t open anti-aircraft fire because they expected allied planes coming for rescue. The French didn`t move their troops into western Germany deprived of proper defence because the best Wehrmacht forces had been thrown on the Polish front. Even German generals admitted that if the French had decided to attack, Germans would be helpless. But Hitler had predicted such behaviour. That the French would hide behind Maginot Line with the British too far and uninterested. That`s what some Poles today bear a grudge against allies about. Leslie, you prefer to see 3 September as an act of Western loyalty towards their Polish ally. Paradoxically, Poles tend to see it as an act of Western indolence and sluggishness. I am indifferent about it. I prefer to blame not passive indolent allies but Polish politicians who were incompetent when they naively believed in allied help. Besides, allies were punished for their passive behaviour in September. France was occupied and lost her face, Britain sustained losses from air raids and had to beg for help from the USA. In result of the war both Britain and France lost their colonies, stopped being superpowers and gave way to the USA and USSR. |
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Post by leslie on Sept 8, 2007 13:08:28 GMT -7
 ;D By the way George, the plural in English of crematorium, is crematoria!! ;D Leslie ps George - come and have a cup of my laced tea with me!
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george
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Post by george on Sept 9, 2007 13:02:47 GMT -7
First of all Leslie, sorry about the misspelling of a word, the topic is much more important. But to say that the war would have lasted only a month is naivate beyond words. Could of,
would of, should of. If the dog didn't stop to take a crap he would have caught the rabbit ( old American saying ).
Do you honestly think that Hitler would have stopped after taking over Poland? If thats the case, i have some swamp land for sale and the Brooklyn Bridge to boot. Interested? This is probably the attitude some Brits may have had until it ( the war ) came to their front door, and then prayed America would come to their rescue. Lucky you
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;D By the way George, the plural in English of crematorium, is crematoria!! ;D