Entomology of Niemcy/Germans

[jimpres]

Another article of Genealogical interest.
This has been a discussion item on a Genealogical list.

Author Fred Hoffman.

I looked in Aleksander Brueckner's _Slownik
etymologiczny jezyka polskiego_ [Etymological
Dictionary of the Polish Language], originally
published in Krakow in 1927. He says: "tem
uszczypliwem przezwiskiem o 'nierozumialym,' a
wiec niby niemym czlowieku uraczyl Slowianin
pierwszych Niemcow, ktorych napotkal, Bastarnow
przed Chr., albo Gotow po Chr., in nazwe te
orzszerzyl na wszystkich blish im mowa czy zbroja;
nazwa wiec taka sama, jak Slowianie (p.)."

[My best translation: The Slav called the first
Germans he met, the Bastarnae before Christ and
the Goths after Christ, by this acerbic nickname
meaning "incomprehensible" and therefore "a mute
fellow," and extended this name to all near him in
terms of speech or armor; so the name is like that
of the Slavs (q. v.).]

That's the entry in the main part of the book. In
additional comments at the end he noted that a
Czech historian had wondered why anyone would call
people "mute" who obviously spoke loud and clear?
But Brueckner points out that originally _niemy_
could also mean "speaking incomprehensibly,
jabbering," and that's probably the sense in which
this name originated.

I don't have an etymological dictionary that deals
with Russian or Slavic languages in general, so I
can't say how early this term came into use among
the Slavs. But if Brueckner felt Slavs first
applied the term to the Bastarnae, that strongly
suggests Slavs were calling Germanic peoples by
this before the Slavs began to separate into
Poles, Russians, etc. The word for "German" is
essentially the same in Czech, _Nemec_ with hacek
over the first E; in Ukrainian it's _nimets'_,
with characteristic Ukrainian use of I where other
Slavs prefer E/O. In Serbian it's _Nemac_ or
_Njemac_. So it most Slavs use much the same word
to refer to an individual German; and that
suggests use of the word by may date back to the
Proto-Slavic tongue (before the 7th century A.D.)

I would add that linguists have traditionally
understood the Greek term _barbaros_ to much
something similar. To the ancient Greeks the
speech of the barbarians sounded like they were
saying "Bar, bar, bar," which was just jabber
devoid of meaning. So the Slavs, like the ancient
Greeks, used a word for these neighboring
"barbarians" that simply meant "one who can't
speak correctly."

I've always thought it was interesting that the
German word for "German," _deutsch_, comes from an
old Germanic root meaning "the people." In other
words, the ancient Germanic tribes saw themselves
as the "real human beings,"
as opposed to those subhuman barbarians who spoke
other languages and had other customs. I guess it
all depends on your perspective!

I hope that sheds some light on the question.


Jim

[hollister]

Jim, I found this fascinating
I know that world wide the native peoples tend to call themselves "people" and outsiders are well... outsiders.

[kaima]

Hi Holly & Jim -

I have the same experience with locals calling themselves "real people" and relegating the rest of us to "people". Among others are the Eskimo, at least the Inupiat among them. However, they do it in a most charming fashion that is not offensive. Last week a friend was telling me about when the part-Eskimo daughter was born & her grnadmother looked at her and said "ah, there is too much Gussok in her!", Gussok being derived from Cossak and the Russian-American era of our history. Gussok is a bit like Gringo, the meaning depending upon the tone spoken. In this case it was very loving.

I suppose I will add the comment to the Polish-German thread, but it seems appropriate here as well. My experience in Germany was that quite often when Germans would talk about Poles, their tone would change. It is no surprise to me that they have a dislike for Poles. I also remember hearing "you can't trust the people from the east", which included East Germans and implicitly all Slavs. My answer to that was "Yes, and Germany lies to the east of America..."

Just as an aside, Eskimo also have a word for Black Americans as "Black-White men", derived from the early whaling days when black men came along with white men in whaling ships to the Arctic. This fits in well with the view of Eskimo as "Real People" and "White men and Black-White men" being lumped together as just "People".

Kai

PS. I also enjoyed poking fun at German ego by refusing to eat raw hamburger with them during the breaks at the opera, while clearly admitting to eating raw caribou with Eskimo.

[hollister]

Kai, Thanks for the thoughtful post.
I think that part of this is that it is MUCH easier to define yourself and those who share the same cultural assumptions than someone else. So it is easy to think of them as the "other." Especially if you do not speak the same language. If you do not have a way to communicate it is easy to misunderstand one another.
Which brings me to another thing I have been pondering - I think that in America since we do not encourage (even demand) that we learn another language - do you think that this has lead us to to something of the reverse? Thinking and assuming that everyone else will take up the responsibility to communicate with us by learning English?