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Post by pieter on Sept 3, 2022 17:21:43 GMT -7
Also one of the better songs of Closer.
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Post by pieter on Sept 3, 2022 17:23:50 GMT -7
A rather esotheric, atmospheric song of the album closer.
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Post by pieter on Sept 3, 2022 17:25:30 GMT -7
Also a very atmosppheric and melancholic song from the album Closer.
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Post by pieter on Sept 4, 2022 4:18:52 GMT -7
Folks,
For me Ian Curtis was what Freddy Mercury was for Queem. Queen was never the same after Freddy Mercury died and New Order was different than Joy Division due to the absence of Ian Curtis voice, person, lyrics, poetry, ideas and presence. New Order came to existence, because Ian Curtis was gone. Joy Division couldn't continue to exist without it's lead singer. The music of Joy Division and New Order (Blue Monday) had a profound influence on the teenager and guy in his twenties (me from 1990 until 1999) and continued to play a role -to a lesser extend- in the 21th century. Joy Division existed in my life next to my David Bowie albums, Velvet Underground albums, Siouxsie and the Banshees, PJ Harvey, the Rolling Stones, my techno, House, Drum'n Bass, Kraftwerk, Electro, Dance and other music. There was always an interaction between Joy Division/New Order and other British music in my taste and of course in the music world.
I found my balance between British and American music and believe me I listened to a lot of American music and we Europeans were greatly influenced by the Americans. But to be honest my base was British music. Not Dutch or continental European music, but British music. In the sense of English language music you can ad the music of Chuck Berry, Ottis Reding, Miles Davis, Michael Jackson, Prince, Diana Ross (my favorite Love Hangover and The Wiz -fantastic-)
I am as an ecclecticist fascinated by American Folk Music, the orgininsl Slave music of African American slaves, the Field hollers, sung by individuals, work songs, sung by groups of laborers, and satirical songs (Although the Negro spirituals are the best known form of slave music, in fact secular music was as common as sacred music.), old African American Blues of the twenties, African American Rhythm and blues, old WASP Hillbilly music, Country & Western music, Hank Williams and Woody Guthrie,
Also fascinated by the African American music in which African and European elements and musical forms and instruments merged. African American musicians merged European piano and guitar music with African drum Rhythms and styles, African tribal songs with the European way of singing and European English wwhich became the strange typical American nasal gnawing English. But the latter is a opinion of European British english language purists who dislike American English. I know other Dutch people prefer the more direct, pragmatic, monotomous nasal gnawing American English. Why American English became that nasal gnawing language is a mystery to me. Is it a very heavy Scandinavian, German, Dutch, Yiddish, Native American, Irish Celtic elements (or Irish English accent?) white pioneer settler language development (a language shaped by harsh conditions, survival of the fittest, stuggle with the environment and to get an income, home and thus place to stay?). Is American English based on poor working class English, Welsh and Scottish? Is there an influence of English and Scottish Puritinical Protestants who escaped from Anglican Great Britain?
Compared with English as spoken in the United Kingdom, North American English is more homogeneous and any phonologically unremarkable North American accent is known as "General American". This section mostly refers to such General American features.
Wikipedia states that the use of English in the United States is a result of British colonization of the Americas. The first wave of English-speaking settlers arrived in North America during the early 17th century, followed by further migrations in the 18th and 19th centuries. During the 17th and 18th centuries, dialects from many different regions of England and the British Isles existed in every American colony, allowing a process of extensive dialect mixture and leveling in which English varieties across the colonies became more homogeneous compared with the varieties in Britain. English thus predominated in the colonies even by the end of the 17th century's first immigration of non-English speakers from Western Europe and Africa. Additionally, firsthand descriptions of a fairly uniform American English (particularly in contrast to the diverse regional dialects of British English) became common after the mid-18th century, while at the same time speakers' identification with this new variety rose. Since then, American English has developed into some new varieties, including regional dialects that, in some cases, show minor influences in the last two centuries from successive waves of immigrant and enslaved speakers of diverse languages, primarily European languages. Racial and sometimes regional variation in American English reflects these groups' geographic dispersal and settlement and their de jure and then de facto segregation, respectively.
American English and British English (BrE) often differ at the levels of phonology, phonetics, vocabulary, and, to a much lesser extent, grammar and orthography. The first large American dictionary, An American Dictionary of the English Language, known as Webster's Dictionary, was written by Noah Webster in 1828, codifying several of these spellings.
While written American English is largely standardized across the country and spoken American English dialects are highly mutually intelligible, there are still several recognizable regional and ethnic accents and lexical distinctions.
Most Americans preserve all historical /ɹ/ sounds, using what is known as a rhotic accent. The only traditional r-dropping (or non-rhoticity) in regional U.S. accents variably appears today in eastern New England, New York City, and some of the former plantation South primarily among older speakers (and, relatedly, some African-American Vernacular English across the country), though the vowel-consonant cluster found in "bird," "work," "hurt," "learn," etc. usually retains its r pronunciation, even in these non-rhotic American accents. Non-rhoticity among such speakers is presumed to have arisen from their upper classes' close historical contact with England, imitating London's r-dropping, a feature that has continued to gain prestige throughout England from the late 18th century onwards, but which has conversely lost prestige in the U.S. since at least the early 20th century. Non-rhoticity makes a word like car sound like cah or source like sauce.
I have a great tolerance and not such a judgemental idea about the various kinds of English. It is a fact that you have the different English accents or regional English languages. You have the British English, Scottish English, Irish English, Welsh English accent, American English, Canadian English, Australian English, New Zealandic English, South African English, Jamaican English and Coninental European English accents (often used in the Euronews chanal or by non British European reporters for Al Jazeera for instance - Step Vaessen (born 11 February 1965), a Dutch broadcast journalist, currently working as a Moscow correspondent for Al Jazeera English for instance-.).
In the United Kingdom you have various kinds of English based on class, region and city for instance. The Cockney speaking working class English guy from the Eastend of London the Liverpool dialect speaking Liverpooler, the Manchester dialect speaking Manchester (Ian Curtis and the members of Joy Division and New Order speak a Greater Manchester working class dialect), the Middle class english of the average Brit, the high class english of the elite and the Eton (college), Oxford & Camebridge university academical elitish British of the British aristocratic, bureaucratic and merchant upper classes.
British actor Michael Caine about his Cockney Londener accent and his working class background and the British class system
Pieter
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Post by pieter on Sept 4, 2022 4:22:30 GMT -7
Folks,
I love this video and get tears in my eyes of joy by this video, because I recognize myself in this poor American chap. Because I have the same in some Dutch regions in which they speak a heavy regional language or dialect and I can't understand them with my Standard Dutch or Holland Dutch. Even some heavy Zeelandic dialects, or other Frankian and Saxon dialects and regional languages I can't understand. Some heavy Frisian I can't understand either if it is very local and regionalist. This is typical European. One village or town can have a completely different dialect or language than the next one. Inside the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Frande and the United Kingdom you have different regional language zones. In the Netherlands for instance you have heavy Flemish and French influences in the South, and German influences in the East, and different Frissian dialects in the North. In Dutch Friesland, the Frissian dialect of one Frisian town is completey differen than the Frisian dialect of the other Frisian town. The people of the Frisian town Franeker (Frisian: Frjentsjer) speak a different Frisian than the Frisians of the village Makkum, and the people of the Frisian capital Leeuwarden (Liwwadden) speak Town Frisian (West Frisian: Stedsk, Stedfrysk). The dialects of mainland West Frisian are all readily intelligible. Three are usually distinguished:
- Clay Frisian (Klaaifrysk dialect, incl. Westereendersk) - Wood Frisian (Wâldfrysk dialect) - South or Southwest Frisian (Súdhoeks dialect)
The Súdwesthoeksk ("South Western") dialect, which is spoken in an area called de Súdwesthoeke ("the Southwest Corner"), deviates from mainstream West Frisian in that it does not adhere to the so-called newer breaking system, a prominent grammatical feature in the three other main dialects.
The Noardhoeksk ("Northern") dialect, spoken in the north eastern corner of the province, does not differ much from Wood Frisian.
By far the two most-widely spoken West Frisian dialects are Clay Frisian (Klaaifrysk) and Wood Frisian (Wâldfrysk). Both these names are derived from the Frisian landscape. In the western and north-western parts of the province, the region where Clay Frisian is spoken, the soil is made up of thick marine clay, hence the name. While in the Clay Frisian-speaking area ditches are used to separate the pastures, in the eastern part of the province, where the soil is sandy, and water sinks away much faster, rows of trees are used to that purpose. The natural landscape in which Wâldfrysk exists mirrors The Weald and North Weald areas of south-eastern England – the Germanic words wald and weald are cognate, as is the more generic wood.
Although Klaaifrysk and Wâldfrysk are mutually very easily intelligible, there are, at least to native West Frisian speakers, a few very conspicuous differences. These include the pronunciation of the words my ("me"), dy ("thee"), hy ("he"), sy ("she" or "they"), wy ("we") and by ("by"), and the diphthongs ei and aai.[7]
Of the two, Wâldfrysk probably has more speakers, but because the western clay area was originally the more prosperous part of the mostly agricultural province, Klaaifrysk has had the larger influence on the West Frisian standardised language.
Folks, it is fascinating how much the environment and living conditions can have influence on the development of language and also certain professions and social classes can have influence on language and culture. I for instance didn't feel quite at home in Zeeland, because I was Roman Catholic in a Calvinist area. And in the same time I felt alienated because I didn't spoke the regional language Zeelandic, nor the city dialect of Vlissingen, nor the Fishermen and farmers dialects of the farmers and fishermen villages. All Calvinist villages indeed, but with different brands of Calvinism and also rivalry of course. ZeelandicThe Zeelandic flag for the Zeelandic farmers, fishermen, sailor (Commercial navy), and town people with their South-Western Dutch Franconian identity For instance the Zeelandic regional language of my youth was different than the Standard Dutch I learned at home and at school. Outside school and my home the Friso-Franconian Zeelandic regional language and Zeelandic dialects were spoken. Zeelandic (Zeeuws: Zeêuws; Dutch: Zeeuws; West Flemish: Zêeuws) is a group of Friso-Franconian language varieties spoken in the southwestern parts of the Netherlands. It is currently considered a Low Franconian dialect of Dutch, but there have been movements to promote the status of Zeelandic from a dialect of Dutch to a separate regional language, which have been denied by the Dutch Ministry of Internal Affairs. More specifically, it is spoken in the southernmost part of South Holland (Goeree-Overflakkee) and large parts of the province of Zeeland, with the notable exception of eastern Zeelandic Flanders.
It has notable differences from Standard Dutch mainly in pronunciation but also in grammar and vocabulary, which separates it clearly from Standard Dutch. This makes mutual intelligibility with speakers of Standard Dutch difficult. My feelings of being an outsider in Zeeland has a lot to do with this Friso-Franconian Zeelandic regional language and Zeelandic dialects. You hardly learn it when you are not a native Zeelandic person. In Zeelandic families Zeelandic was spoken for many generations. Great great great grandparents of these Zeelandic people, their Great grandparents, grandparents, father and mother, aunts, uncles, cousins, nephews and nieces, neighbours, members of their Calvinist Gereformeerde (Reformed) church communities all spoke Zeelandic. If you are a Roman Catholic and you speak Holland Dutch (Standard Dutch) and you have a Polish mother and Polish grandmother, you are an outsider (a 'Fremde' een 'vreemde', an 'Outsider' an 'Alien' in Dutch).
Thank god there were more import/outsiders or Aliens, but fact is that for the rest of my life until today I always feel like an 'Alien', 'Outsider' and 'Fremde/vreemdeling' in my own country. I was never a local in Zeeland, Amsterdam or Arnhem. In Arnhem you have the same city dialect, local/regional dialect and city Patriotism (in Zeeland it was regionalism, Provincial nationalism, proud to be a Zeelander) in which locals find it important that you were born and raised in Arnhem. I wasn't born and raised in Arnhem and am proud of that. I contribute to Arnhem, but never will be an Arnhemmer, because I wasn't born and raised here. So, I am an 'Import Dutch'. The Netherlands consists of locals and Import people. You can be a native Dutch or migrant local, born and raised in the Duthc city or town you live in and you can be an Import Native Dutch or migrant. This being born and raised in a place is very important for some people who are rooted in their trinity of Local, Regional and National identity. That is more important than their European or World citizen identity. Europe doesn't interest them and other parts neither, only if they go on holiday.
Zeelandic dialect comedy
Heavy Zeelandic Arnemuiden Fishermen dialect. Different than the farmer dialects.
Cheers, Pieter
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Post by pieter on Sept 4, 2022 5:19:56 GMT -7
Making fun of different dialects and regional languages is a favorite topic of various Dutch comedians;
Mocking and making fun of the Dutch language, certain Dutch words with the hard G, and brilliant self mockery is the trade mark of the Dutch comedian Jochem Myjer. Mocking the fast, or very slow or weird elements in dialects and regional languages.
Brilliant impersonations of the Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Groningen dialects, the Low Saxon and Frisian dialects.
Jochem Myjer grew up in the Low Saxon Eastern town of Zutphen in the Achterhoek region.
Jochem Myjer (born April 22, 1977 in Leiden) is a Dutch comedian.
Myjer grew up in Zutphen and later returned to Leiden. He gave up his biology studies in Groningen after two years to devote himself entirely to cabaret.
He has ADHD and speaks very quickly. His high-energy performances are popular due to the imitation of types and celebrities. He accompanies himself singing on the piano and also plays the violin. Among other things, he was the presenter of the traditional children's program Kinderen voor Kinderen (2006) and also speaks on the radio. In 1997 he won the Groninger Student Cabaret Festival.
Myjer lives with singer Marloes Nova and has had a daughter with her since 2009.
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Post by pieter on Sept 4, 2022 5:32:13 GMT -7
From this dialects I have the greatest difficult to understand the border language of Kerkraads (Kirchröadsj) (listen from 5:44) it is not Dutch nor German and it is inbetween. Like many dialects as an arogant Standard Dutch speaker I find it an ugly dialect without an esthic or musical value.which for instance the German (Hochdeutsch = Bach, Matthäus-Passion), French and English languages have. And also Polish, Russian, Italian (Opera), Spanish (Flamenco mmusic and songs), Portuguese (Fado (Portuguese pronunciation: [ˈfaðu]; "destiny, fate") for some people. Both Dutch and German people have great difficulties understanding this regional dialect in both Germany and the Netherlands.
The Kerkrade dialect (natively Kirchröadsj plat or Kerrechrööetsch Platt [ˈkeʁəçˌʁœətʃ ˈplɑt][tone?] or simply Kirchröadsj / Kerrechrööetsch, literally 'Kerkradish', Limburgish: Kirkräödsj [ˈkɪʀ(ə)kˌʀœːtʃ],[tone?] Standard Dutch: Kerkraads, Standard German: Kerkrader Platt) is a Ripuarian dialect spoken in Kerkrade and its surroundings, including Herzogenrath in Germany. It is spoken in all social classes, but the variety spoken by younger people in Kerkrade is somewhat closer to Standard Dutch.
The most similar other Ripuarian dialects are those of Bocholtz, Vaals and Aachen.
The only dictionary of the Kerkrade dialect considers it to be a Ripuarian variety, but most native speakers treat it as a Southeast Limburgish dialect and call it Limburgsj / Lembörrechsch ('Limburgish'), Kirchröadsj / Kerrechrööetsch ('Kerkradish') or simply plat / Platt ('dialect'). The name Ripuarisch is strictly a scientific term on both sides of the border.
A distinct East Limburgish dialect called Egelzer plat is spoken in Eygelshoven, in the north of the Kerkrade municipality. One of the biggest differences between the two is the pronunciation of the sound written ⟨g⟩ in Limburgish; in Eygelshoven, it is pronounced as in Limburgish and (southern) standard Dutch (as a voiced velar fricative), whereas in the Kerkrade dialect it is pronounced as in Colognian, as a palatal approximant (where it is spelled ⟨j⟩), except after back vowels where a voiced uvular fricative is used, resulting in a merger with /r/.
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Post by pieter on Sept 4, 2022 5:44:02 GMT -7
I love these video's. It shows the Caste, class society Britain is.CasteCaste is a form of social stratification characterised by endogamy, hereditary transmission of a style of life which often includes an occupation, ritual status in a hierarchy, and customary social interaction and exclusion based on cultural notions of purity and pollution. Its paradigmatic ethnographic example is the division of India's Hindu society into rigid social groups, with roots in India's ancient history and persisting to the present time. However, the economic significance of the caste system in India has been declining as a result of urbanisation and affirmative action programs. A subject of much scholarship by sociologists and anthropologists, the Hindu caste system is sometimes used as an analogical basis for the study of caste-like social divisions existing outside Hinduism and India. The term "caste" is also applied to morphological groupings in eusocial insects such as ants, bees, and termites.United KingdomIn July 2013, the UK government announced its intention to amend the Equality Act 2010, to "introduce legislation on caste, including any necessary exceptions to the caste provisions, within the framework of domestic discrimination law". Section 9(5) of the Equality Act 2010 provides that "a Minister may by order amend the statutory definition of race to include caste and may provide for exceptions in the Act to apply or not to apply to caste".
From September 2013 to February 2014, Meena Dhanda led a project on "Caste in Britain" for the UK Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC).AmericasUnited StatesIn W. Lloyd Warner's view, the historic relationship between Blacks and Whites in the US showed many caste-like features such as residential segregation and marriage restrictions. In her 2020 book Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents, journalist Isabel Wilkerson similarly uses caste as a means to understand the racial hierarchy of the United States.
According to Gerald D. Berreman, in the two systems, there are rigid rules of avoidance and certain types of contacts are defined as contaminating. In India, there are complex religious features which make up the system, whereas in the United States race and color are the basis for differentiation. The caste systems in India and the United States have higher groups which desire to retain their positions for themselves and thus perpetuate the two systems. Isabel Wilkerson relates the caste systems of the United States, India, and Nazi Germany together. She makes the argument that all caste systems are derived off of foundational principles including a divine or natural justification for the system, terror or cruelty by the dominant caste to remain in power, heritability of caste, and occupational hierarchy.
The process of creating a homogenised society by social engineering in both India and the US has created other institutions that have made class distinctions among different groups evident. Anthropologist James C. Scott elaborates on how "global capitalism is perhaps the most powerful force for homogenization, whereas the state may be the defender of local difference and variety in some instances". The caste system, a relic of feudalistic economic systems, emphasises differences between socio-economic classes that are obviated by openly free market capitalistic economic systems, which reward individual initiative, enterprise, merit, and thrift, thereby creating a path for social mobility. When the feudalistic slave economy of the southern United States was dismantled, even Jim Crow laws did not prevent the economic success of many industrious African Americans, including millionaire women like Maggie Walker, Annie Malone, and Madame C.J. Walker. Parts of the United States are sometimes divided by race and class status despite the national narrative of integration.
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Post by pieter on Sept 4, 2022 5:46:42 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Sept 4, 2022 6:24:09 GMT -7
RP also called Standard British English and Posh English or upper class, or public school English and the Queen's English or Oxford English or BBC English. How do they compare? In this video we take a look at the history and compare the different pronunciations. We also look at the English of people who have been educated abroad such as Freddie Mercury.
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Post by pieter on Sept 4, 2022 6:46:02 GMT -7
This Caste system and social classes and class society is relevant to understand how African American, White Folk Music, working class music, Rock and Pop Music came to existence as phemomena of class societies. The rather sophisticated Pop music and music industries had a working class base in the United Kingdom, but when it grew bigger, more Middle class and high class and Upper class people became involved in it and the original working class musicians and producers mingled in with Middle class and upper class people. And etc.
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Post by pieter on Sept 5, 2022 6:13:49 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Sept 5, 2022 6:14:41 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Sept 5, 2022 6:18:32 GMT -7
Kiltedanais used programs Paulstretch added to Audicity to extend New Order's Ceremony, from their Total version, to a 34 minute song. Plus Kiltedanais added the real version from New Order's Total @2:04 , an Acoustic version that may or may not be New Order @7:42, cover by The Chromatics @17:13
,
and the live cover by Radiohead @29:20. Kiltedanais did not have a quality version sung by Ian Curtis except the demo. To make up for Ian's vocal missing, most of the photographs are of Joy Division and not New Order. Kiltedanais does not own the rights to any of the songs, but it is my own unique remix underneath. Kiltedanais does not own any of the photos or graphics. Most of those are Peter Saville's creations. With one visual exception ... @22:25 is Kiltedanais interpretation of Peter's TrueFaith gold leaf mixed into a Mandelbrot set fractal and few other tweaks.
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Post by pieter on Sept 5, 2022 6:28:35 GMT -7
Other bands made covers of Joy Division songs
This The Cure version like Joy Division has a typical British New Wave sound.
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