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Post by pieter on Jul 7, 2023 23:13:19 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Jul 7, 2023 23:13:59 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Jul 7, 2023 23:16:14 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Jul 7, 2023 23:18:06 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Jul 7, 2023 23:18:49 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Jul 7, 2023 23:19:28 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Jul 7, 2023 23:21:15 GMT -7
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Post by karl on Jul 8, 2023 9:27:02 GMT -7
Pieter
This is a hot situation of many facets and no matter the direction taken by the Dutch Government, those of authority will be getting the heat, and if they cannot take the heat, best get out of the kitchen.
Denmark faced the similar situation with these migrants and have taken the heat from the world stage but stayed the course. It is a matter of people dissatisfied for which ever reason with their respective Governments or current issues and are eyeing us as their life island to escape to. We in the West built our life as it presents now, these migrants need to stay home, buckle down and do whatever it takes to do the similar with their own.
The above is not meant to be racist, but the reality of preserving our way of life against those that wish to bring it down to poverty or worse.
Karl
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Post by pieter on Jul 9, 2023 1:51:59 GMT -7
Karl,
Thank you for your reply Karl. Every European country is different due to its ethnic population, history and culture, but there are certainly some similarities. Denmark 🇩🇰 for instance is smaller in the sense of the seize of its population, but it has a similar landmass. So different amounts of peoples in similar spaces create different situations. But fact is that for instance Dutch, Danish and for instance Belgian cities and towns are similar in seize and shape. So there are some similarities in social, financial, economical, housing, social security, health care, infrastructure, educational and internal affairs, migration policies and dealings with refugee influxes. There is an interaction between integration and assimilation of migrants and the huge influx of masses of refugees. You have huge islands, enclaves, neighoods or parts of cities and towns (Centre, the South, the North, the West or the East) in the Netherlands that are ethnically, culturally, religiously, politically and in the social cultural and demographical sense not local, regional and National West Germanic Dutch, Native North West European Dutch anymore.
If you say something or make a statement come with proof a critical mind and critical journalist or sociologist would say. There are a lot of figures, statistics, documents, video’s and photo’s which proof that fact. Personal experience is that I noticed that in some area’s Turkish, Moroccan Berber, Arabic, and other non-Western and non-European languages were dominant (some neighborhoods and areas). I was irritated that in some cases I could not use Dutch as a communication tool, because people with a Non-Western migrant background didn’t understood me. And they didn’t spoke English or German either. Maybe some people in the USA do not speak English either. Well they should. Spanish, Arabic, or other languages are not the American English language.
Next to the fact that you have perfectly well integrated Dutch Turks and Moroccans whom speak Dutch well and have found a nice and just mix of their Dutchness and Turkish, Turkish Kurd, Moroccan Berber and Moroccan Arab identities. Fact remains that masses of other Turks and Moroccans are not well integrated and do not speak Dutch well or do not speak Dutch at all. As the son of a Polish mother I saw her struggle with the Dutch language, but she became a Dutch speaker and a Dutch person. My mom was an example of successful integration.
Next to the ‘old’ Moroccan, Turkish, Italian, Greek and Portuguese guest workers you have masses of Syrian, Iraqi, Afghan, Iranian, Somalian, Eritrean, Ethiopian, Nigerian, Sudanese, and other refugees today. These people often after years stil do not speak Dutch, live in groups and communities, with different habits, customs, a different religion (Islam), and different behavior (sociology) and their own problems, trauma’s and suffering (psychology/psychiatry) and sometimes awkward behavior as a cause of that.
Where do these people stay in the Netherlands 🇳🇱 and other European countries ( 🇩🇰 🇧🇪 🇩🇪 🇸🇪 🇳🇴 🇦🇹 🇬🇧). They are often for many years in Asylum seekers centres (closed facilities or half open facilities) and eventually will live in working class neighbourhoods or new build area’s. Around these Asylum seekers centres they will face hostility of locals whom object to the presence of the Asylum seekers centre in their village, Town or city. Xenophobia, racism and rejection of non-Western (read Non-White and non-European looking people) will play a role there. But also just fear of non-racist parents and citizens about the presence of a large group of strangers whom suddenly enter their living space.
You have hostile Dutch people, you have indifferent Dutch people and you have helpful and empathic Dutch people and also naive Dutch people who think that we can endlessly help people from all over the world. Fact is that many large Dutch cities aren’t Dutch anymore. Multiculturalism has good and bad sides. I think that ethnic minorities are too present, not humble, not loyal to the Netherlands but to another nation, nationality or religious stream, movement or ideology.
Like Karl I am not a racist, nor xenophobic, nor discriminatory either, but I understand the native Dutch (often with a working class, lower middle class or farmer background) who say, we want to keep our country, heritage and identity. I am of a different class, group and political affiliation, but I understand these people (conservatives, nationalists and populists).
I understand why Poland 🇵🇱 and Hungary 🇭🇺 reject Muslim migrants and refugees and are also restrictive with other non-Western (non-European) migrants and refugees.
In the Netherlands we have to integrate the migrants and refugees we have to keep the Netherlands we have. Both Denmark 🇩🇰 and the Netherlands 🇳🇱 have moved to the right in a more conservative direction. That is democracy. The people voted, and the political spectrum is more divided and the political spectrum moved more to the right. But the left, although smaller is stil there. You know that I am a left leaning, rather liberal Free thinking person. Not a conservative, but I understand the Dutch conservative mindset and the reason behind that mindset. We have to find a balance today and in the future.
Foreigners, migrants and refugees have to understand that it is a situation of give and take. We must separate the wheat from the chaff. We have not the luxery of taking in all refugees. The Caff are the ‘fortune seekers’, ‘economical refugees’ and ‘Safe landers’. If we want to have a ‘Refugee policy’ at all we must have a good and better system and we must have selection tools. Whom do we allow in and whom we don’t.
Pieter
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Post by pieter on Jul 9, 2023 8:56:12 GMT -7
Folks, The fourth Rutte cabinet ‘is’ or was the current cabinet of the Netherlands. It was inaugurated on 10 January 2022. The cabinet is a continuation of the third Rutte cabinet and is formed by the conservative-liberal People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD), the social-liberal Democrats 66 and the christian-democratic Christian Democratic Appeal (CDA) and Christian Union (CU) after the election of 2021. The fourth Rutte cabinet fell on 7 July 2023 after failing to reach an agreement on separate treatment of refugees fleeing from war. As a result, the cabinet became demissionary. The conservative-liberal People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD) of our demissionaire prime minister is stuck between the Center left Social Liberal and progressive (leftist) D66 coalition partner and the Left opposition (Labour Party [PvdA], GreenLeft, Socialist Party [SP], Party for the Animals, Denk [Think party] and the far left Bij1 🐝 ) on one side and the Center right Christian Democrats (CDA), Rightwing Reformed Political Party (SGP), Farmer Populist BBB (Farmer Citizens Movement), and Far right Freedom Party (PVV/Geert Wilders), JA21 (Rightwing populist, Fortuynist party [ en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn ]), the Nationalist and Pro Russian Rightwing Populist Forum for Democracy (Thierry Baudet), and the Moderate Rightwing Populist BVNL of Wybren van Haga. It will be very hard for new Formateurs and Informateurs to formate a new coalition government in the Netherlands. A VVD-CDA-BBB government would be possible, but the BBB is a rather new movement and party with less experienced people than the VVD and CDA. From the other side there are many former CDA people in the BBB with a long Christian Democratic heritage. They come from the Rightwing wing within the Christian Democratic CDA party. People whom rejected the Centrist course of the CDA and wanted to move the party in a more conservative, Dutch Nationalist and Patriotic direction. It was called the Pro-Farmer wing which rejected the Dutch farm policies to reduce the Nitrogen in the Earth's atmosphere. A problem in the moderate center is that a new cooperation between the liberal D66 and the conservative VVD will be hard. A new cooperation between the social Christian (Pro Refugee Family reunion) ChristenUnie on one side and the more conservative VVD and CDA parties on the other side will be impossible as well. The experienced VVD and CDA parties will not be happy to form a coalition with the BBB who vehemently opposed the fourth Rutte cabinet‘s Nitrogen policy and pressure on the farmers and plans to reduce the amount of farms and cattle in the Netherlands. It will be nearly Belgian and Israeli circumstances. Political parties and politicians whom dislike each other and fought each other for years will have to form a New Coalition government. That process will take months or maybe even half a year or more. New elections in November 2024 or earlier will show which parties will gain from this situation and which one will lose. I don’t think that the left will come back, but a left-right coalition of GreenLeft/Labour Party (PvdA), and the conservative VVD and CDA will be highly unlikely. The Dutch left is small if you look at the larger right and Center in Dutch politics. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_the_NetherlandsWe will see. After this immense political week with the fall of the Rutte 4 Cabinet, the approximately 20 political parties and factions will gain steam, think about political campaigns, and will become active. The party departments in the country will prepare for the political battle that is to come. This will be a tough campaign due to the many tensions and political issues in society. The benefits scandal, the refugee crisis, the housing shortage, the 'nitrogen problem', the shortages in healthcare, the war in the Ukraine and the Dutch support for it. Will a new government with a different political color continue this? There are many problems to be solved and many questions to be answered. We'll see how it goes. for the time being, this Cabinet Rutte 4 will continue as caretaker Cabinet. Pieter |
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Post by pieter on Jul 10, 2023 2:28:24 GMT -7
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