forza
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 514
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Post by forza on Nov 17, 2006 20:50:48 GMT -7
I don't mind PO PSL SLD coaliton either but this is local governments and it gets more personal on this level. For example here In Szczecin we have now PO and PSL having 15 seats together in Sejmik Wojewodzki (state, regional gov. body) and they need just one more seat to form majority. Since SLD has been rulling here for last 4 years and Marszalek (state govrenor) Mr. Mayer and his SLD has been personally critisized througout this time it is hard now to imagine PO would form coalition with SLD. Many would probably like to leave PiS in oposition but it may be harder to do. I'm not a fan of SLD, too and I hate SLD for too obvious reasons - which has more to do with their history and questionable membership rather then with their program, true. I think members of PZPR should be banned from political life! ;D I agree with PiS though (sic!) that in factual matters PO and SLD are simmilar in programs. Notice that SLD's the only lefty program issues are probably their stance on abortion and other women issues plus their support for gay rights. Other than that they are pretty much the same as PO. Poland-Russia:
Local authorities don't do global, national politics in Poland but you are right that our foreign politics fairly represents and reflects voters opinions on how to deal with "new Russia" power games.
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Post by constantine on Nov 18, 2006 4:13:09 GMT -7
Poland-Russia:
Local authorities don't do global, national politics in Poland but you are right that our foreign politics fairly represents and reflects voters opinions on how to deal with "new Russia" power games ---------------------------------------------------------- Wich games do you mean?
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Nov 19, 2006 0:50:48 GMT -7
Hmmm, It's just imposible. Poland politics and elite fall into a reveries about Great Rzeczpospolita. Polish politics are too Yagelonised without of any reason. The Jagiellonian idea has been flourishing, indeed, but this time it is truly Jagiellonian, namely there are at last independent states like Ukraine or Lithuania next to Poland proper. Poles do not cherish any dreams of getting any lands back in the East from those countries. It is enough for them that Polish cultural heritage, e.g. the controvercial Lyczakovski Cemetary in Lvov, is taken care of by Ukrainians. But it is true that Polish elites, either from anti-communist Solidarity or post-communist SLD, have done a lot to support the sovereignty of the Eastern nations, e.g., Poland was the first country to recognize the Ukraine`s independence in 1991. Of course, Russians see it as Polish meddling into their sphere of influence, they cannot forget Eastern Ukraine was once a vital part of tsarist Russian and all Ukraine belonged to the Soviet Union. I am afraid we are doomed to have our Polish Russian controvercies. Russians are annoyed by Polish independent politics in the East, Poles are annoyed that Russians still see Poland as "no abroad," as in the saying : Kurica ne ptica, Polsha ne zagranitsa," you know what I mean. Yes, we had our chance but we turned out too weak as a result of our limited vision on the state. Poles claim they used to fight for freedom in the past, but that applies only to some representatives of the Polish gentry. Other classes, e.g., peasants, didn`t have this freedom for a long time and they got it only from the tsar, paradoxically. Today, any imperial dreams are long gone. There is a chance to build normal relations with independent Eastern nations and put a stop to all controvercies, massacres, nationalism etc. Revenge? No. Poles are not vengeful people, we know how to forgive. E.g., the hot issue of Ukrainian massacres of Polish subjects in Volyn area during WW2. Tens thousands of people died in a most horrible way at the hands of Ukrainian nationalists. Poles are not obsessed with revenge on that. There is a deep suspicion of Russia as a state, which is unpredictable and no one knows what it is up to. E.g., a recent example. One day Russians close the water track for Polish ships in Mierzeja Wiślana and the other they open. And that has been going for years. Nobody knows why Russians do it. hahahahaha en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_LagoonDue to Russian blockades, Poles have decided to dig a canal across this strip of land which is halved by Polish Russian border.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Nov 19, 2006 1:03:37 GMT -7
Present antagonism has roots and this roots are reactionary local autorities. This is a base of all. "Reactionary," what a nice word, I haven`t heard it for about 20 years now, it reminds me of sweet days of communism hahahahahahahahahaha when it was used a lot. But you are mistaken. You greatly overestimate the local people`s interest in foreign affairs, not to mention Polish Russian affairs. The truth is that the subject is not mentioned at all. I have had a chance to look closely at the campaign run in a place near Krakow. Those local ruling politicians and candidates from the opposition were quarelling about money, positions, influence and investments in their region. There was no word of Russia. Believe me, local is really local. Nobody cares about Russia. Go to Africa and tell local people in some Zulu village to be interested in the exploration of the moon. I suppose they would be really astonished. The same effect as with local elections here.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Nov 19, 2006 15:42:35 GMT -7
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Post by constantine on Nov 20, 2006 5:24:06 GMT -7
Poles are annoyed that Russians still see Poland as "no abroad," as in the saying : Kurica ne ptica, Polsha ne zagranitsa," you know what I mean. ---------------------------------------------------------- It's not about Poland. The correct saying is: Kuritsa ne ptitsa, Bolgariay ne zagranitsa (Hen is not bird, Bulgaria is not abroad). And it is not a political saying. This colloquialism means only that Russians and Bulgarians are both too close in religion, roots, psychology, language and culture. Belive me it is not offensively
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Post by constantine on Nov 20, 2006 6:16:27 GMT -7
Yes, we had our chance but we turned out too weak as a result of our limited vision on the state. Poles claim they used to fight for freedom in the past, but that applies only to some representatives of the Polish gentry. Other classes, e.g., peasants, didn`t have this freedom for a long time and they got it only from the tsar, paradoxically. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ironnically we are so different, Russians are slow-moving but persistent and Poles are quick and cocky. It's a main reason why Rzeczpospolita I fell in ash. The fatal mistake was an elected kings period. Henry of Valois (Henryk Walezy) opened wide road for crowned nonentitie, may be except Batory. For my observation, all states which established monarch elections were in progressive marasmus.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Nov 20, 2006 15:12:07 GMT -7
The fatal mistake was an elected kings period. Henry of Valois (Henryk Walezy) opened wide road for crowned nonentitie, may be except Batory. For my observation, all states which established monarch elections were in progressive marasmus. Not only Batory (do you remember him becaue he gave Muscovy hell?). There were other good elected kings, e.g. Władysław IV or Jan Sobieski III. The problem was with the gentry who, throughout centuries, usurped for themselves too many rights and prerogatives. It all started with hereditary kings so we can`t suggest that the gentry received privileges from elected kings in return for more rights, although it is also true. The gentry also usurped the right to be the only class which is able to safeguard the independence of Poland. But when the hard times came, it failed to defend the state although it made up 10% of the population, twice or even thrice as much as in any other country in Europe. As Norman Davies observed, the most militirized (the gentry were descendants of medieval knights, warriors) society in Europe was unable to defend itself.
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Post by constantine on Nov 22, 2006 1:40:55 GMT -7
Not only Batory (do you remember him becaue he gave Muscovy hell?). ------------------------------------------------------------------ It was so just because our Ioann IV was preoccupied by nobility extirpation. It was a task number one. In the times when Poles were fixed on covering yourself with fruitless glory, Russians gradually extirpated real evil - local nobelman's feudalism. There were other good elected kings, e.g. Władysław IV or Jan Sobieski III. ------------------------------------------------------------------- They was just a shadows of the past. What was an inheritance of their reigns? It was a reigns of such persons like August II, August III or Stanislav Leschinskiy!
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bujno
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 648
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Post by bujno on Nov 22, 2006 9:59:38 GMT -7
Forza, the funny side of the story is that I agree in some points with PIS but not this one. I'd say that PIS is in fact much more to the left on social matters.
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Nov 22, 2006 10:03:13 GMT -7
Constantine, I was glad to read your exachange with Pawian. I have to note though that it would be even more interesting once both sides showed constructive criticism towards own country's history the way Pawian does.
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Post by constantine on Nov 23, 2006 3:54:13 GMT -7
Constantine, I was glad to read your exachange with Pawian. I have to note though that it would be even more interesting once both sides showed constructive criticism towards own country's history the way Pawian does. Unfortunatly, i can't abstract my mind from the fact that I am Russian, it's very sad and anticosmopolitic but it's truth. May be I am very biased but this bias from both sides gives us a mental pabulum.
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Post by constantine on Nov 23, 2006 4:11:07 GMT -7
As Norman Davies observed, the most militirized (the gentry were descendants of medieval knights, warriors) society in Europe was unable to defend itself. Thanks to you I purchased this book (usually I prefer to read firstprimary sources). Hmmm, there are many interesting things on the history of Western Europe, but when it applies on a Russian subjects, it becomes a real pieace of sh...., sorry, very disputable. And most stupendous, that author dares to give an advices on the politics of the now existent country....it's not history it's foul and tendentious political pamphlet. Brrrrr
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Post by constantine on Nov 23, 2006 4:50:59 GMT -7
Well, I collected my thoughts on the critycism of Russian History and came to the conclusion that Russia is a most democratic state of the world . Being in Russia at middle of XIX cent., marquis de Custine expressed the essence of Russian absolutism: "Absolutism limited by the loop". All tsars knew about this: tsarevich Ivan - was beated up to death by his father Ivan IV Ivan IV - was poisoned tsarevich Dmitriy - was stabed to death Feodor II - was beated up to death by boyars Basil IV - was made a monk by force False Dimetrious I - was tore to piece by the mob False Dimetrious II - was throttled tsarevna Sophy - was admited to the veil tsarevich Alexey - died from fear in prison Piter II - thanks God, died from smallpox in youth Ivan VI - was imprisoned and killed after 20 years of inprisonment Piter III - was forced to abdicate and some days after was striked by bottle in the drunken fight by his jailer, count Orlov Paul I (Russian Gamlet) - was killed by conspirators by the strike od gold snuffbox in temple. Nicolas I - died from distress and disappointment Alexandr II - was blowed up Nicolas II - was executed by shooting tsarevich Alexey - was executed by shooting Mihail II - was executed by shooting ------------------------------------------------- Can you refute this my assertion now?
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Nov 23, 2006 5:42:11 GMT -7
Constantine, by no means!
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