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Post by pieter on Aug 28, 2006 5:04:37 GMT -7
Aleksander KwasniewskiFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaAleksander Kwasniewski ; born November 15, 1954) is a Polish politician who served as the President of Poland from 1995 to 2005. He was born in Bialogard, and during the communist era he was active in the communist Socialist Union of Polish Students (Socjalistyczny Zwiazek Studentów Polskich) and was sports minister in the communist government in 1980s. He was a former leader of the left-wing Social Democracy of the Republic of Poland, successor to the former ruling Polish United Workers Party, and later of the Democratic Left Alliance. Kwasniewski was elected president in 1995, defeating the incumbent, Lech Walesa. He was re-elected to a second and final term as president in 2000 in a decisive first-round victory. His term ended on December 23, 2005, when he handed over power to his elected successor, conservative Lech Kaczynski. He married lawyer Jolanta Konty (now Kwasniewska) in 1979, they have one daughter. Kwasniewski identifies himself as an atheist or agnostic. 1973–1991: Early political careerIn the years 1973 to 1977, Aleksander Kwasniewski studied transport economics and foreign trade at the University of Gdansk, though he never graduated. He became politically active at this time, and joined the ruling Polish United Workers' Party ( PZPR) in 1977, remaining a member until it was dissolved in 1990. An activist in the communist student movement until 1982, he held, among other positions, the chairmanship of the University Council of the Socialist Union of Polish Students ( SZSP) from 1976 to 1977 and the vice-chairmanship of the Gdansk Voivodship Union from 1977 to 1979. Kwasniewski was a member of the SZSP supreme authorities from 1977 to 1982. From November 1981 to February 1984 he was the editor-in-chief of the student weekly ITD, then editor-in-chief of the daily Sztandar Mlodych from 1984 to 1985. He was a co-founder of the first computer-science periodical in Poland, Bajtek, in 1985. From 1985 to 1987, Kwasniewski was Minister for Youth Affairs in the Zbigniew Messner government, and then Chairman of the Committee for Youth and Physical Culture till June 1990. He joined the government of Mieczyslaw Rakowski, first as a cabinet minister and then as chairman of the government Social-Political Committee from October 1988 to September 1989. A participant in the Round-Table negotiations, he co-chaired the task group for trade-union pluralism with Tadeusz Mazowiecki and Romuald Sosnowski. As the PZPR was wound up, he became a founding member of the Social Democratic Party of the Republic of Poland from January to February 1990, and its first chairman until he assumed the presidency in December 1995. He was also one of the founding members of the Democratic Left Alliance in 1991. A sports enthusiast, Kwasniewski was an activist in the Student Sports Union from 1975 to 1979 and the Polish Olympic Committee ( PKOL); he later served as PKOL president from 1988 to 1991. 1991–1995: Parliamentary termsRunning for the Sejm from the Warsaw constituency in 1991, he won the largest number of votes (148,533). Kwasniewski headed the parliamentary caucus of the Democratic Left Alliance in his first and second terms (1991-1995). He was a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee and chairman of the Constitutional Committee of the National Assembly from November 1993 to November 1995. 1995–2005: PresidencyIn an often bitter campaign, Aleksander Kwasniewski won the presidential election in 1995, collecting 51.7 percent of votes in the run-off, against 48.3 percent for the incumbent, Lech Walesa, the former Solidarity leader. Kwasniewski's campaign slogans were "Let's choose the future" ( Wybierzmy przyszlosc) and "A Poland for all" ( Wspólna Polska). Political opponents disputed his victory, claiming that he had lied about his education in registration documents, implying that he had graduated from university. A court challenge confirmed the fact but the court judged it irrelevant for the election result. Kwasniewski took the presidential oath of office on December 23, 1995. Later the same day, he was sworn in as Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces at the Warszawa First Fighter Wing, in Minsk Mazowiecki. Despite the deep polarization brought about by his election, and opposition fears that a Kwa?niewski presidency would signal a return to communism, these fears proved groundless and he proved a surprisingly popular leader. His political course resembled that of Walesa's in several key respects, such as the pursuit of closer ties to the European Union and NATO, and the transition to a market economy and the privatization of state-owned enterprises, but he was able to avoid the conflicts with the Sejm that had often characterized his predecessor's term of office. He wanted to be seen as " the president of all Poles", including his political opponents and he quit the Democratic Left Alliance after election. Later, he cohabited with the rightist government of Jerzy Buzek without major conflicts and on several occasions he stood against movements of the Democratic Left Alliance government of Leszek Miller. At a moment, a support of Kwasniewski reached as high as 80% in popularity polls; for most time it was over 50%. An initial success of Kwasniewski's was his ability to bring about a new Constitution of Poland to replace the modified Stalinist document then still in use. The failure to create a new document had been a criticism often leveled at Walesa. Kwasniewski actively campaigned for its approval in the subsequent referendum, and he signed it into law on July 16, 1997. Kwasniewski took an active part in the efforts to secure Polish membership of NATO. He headed Poland's delegation at the 1997 Madrid summit, where Poland, the Czech Republic, and Hungary were promised membership; and the Washington summit, where on February 26, 1999, during the Kosovo conflict, which he supported, he signed the instruments ratifying Poland's membership of NATO. He also took active part in promoting further enlargement of the alliance, speaking out in favor of membership for a further seven states (see Prague summit) and the open-door policy that leaves open the option of further members. He was an author of the 2002 Riga Initiative, a forum for cooperation between Central European states, aimed towards further enlargement of NATO and the European Union. An advocate of regional cooperation in Central and Eastern Europe, Kwasniewski hosted a summit of the region's leaders at Lancut in 1996. Speaking out against the danger organized crime posed to the region, he submitted a draft of a convention on fighting organised crime to the UN in 1996. He was an active participant at meetings of regional leaders in Portoroz in 1997, Levoca in 1998, and Lviv and Yalta in 1999. After a history of sometimes acrimonious relations with Lithuania, Kwasniewski was a driving force behind the presidential summit in Vilnius in 1997, at which the two countries' presidents signed a treaty of friendship. Poland subsequently became one of the strongest advocates of Lithuanian membership in NATO and the European Union and the strongest advocate of Ukraine in Europe. In 2000 he was re-elected in the first round of voting, collecting 53.9 percent of the vote. His election campaign slogan was: "A home for all—Poland" ( Dom wszystkich—Polska). On December 23, 2000 he took office for the second term. Following the September 11, 2001 attacks, Kwasniewski organized an international conference in Warsaw, with participation of leaders from Central, Eastern and South-Eastern Europe to strengthen regional activities in fighting international terrorism. Under Kwasniewski's leadership, Poland became a strong ally of the United States in the war on terror, and contributed troops in the Iraq war, a move that was highly controversial in Poland and Europe. Poland was in charge of a sector of Iraq after the removal of Saddam Hussein. Polish membership of the European Union became a reality on May 1, 2004, during Kwasniewski's second term. Both he and his wife Jolanta had campaigned for approval of the EU accession treaty in June 2003. He strongly supported putting the christian roots into the European Constitution. Thanks to his close relations with Leonid Kuchma, in late 2004 he became a mediator in a political conflict in Ukraine - the Orange Revolution, and according to some commentators, he played the major role in its peaceful solution. 006 - : Post-PresidencyKwasniewski spoke at The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC in April of 2006. The title of his speech was "The U.N. and its Role in Making the 21st Century an Era of Peace and Progress." He is currently a visiting faculty member of the Edmund Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University. He is on the long list of possible successors to Kofi Annan as United Nations Secretary-General. Leftwing Polish parties sites: www.wyborylewicy.pl/wyborylewicy/index_stud.php?num=116pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sojusz_Lewicy_Demokratycznejwww.sld-wlkp.pl/main/index.phpwww.uniapracy.org.pl/www.sdpl.org.pl/english.htmwww.pps.strefa.pl/
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Post by pieter on Aug 28, 2006 10:18:54 GMT -7
Wojciech OlejniczakFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaWojciech Olejniczak (born April 10, 1974 in Lowicz, Poland) is a Polish leftist politician. He is the President of the Democratic Left Alliance ( SLD) since May 29, 2005 ( the first president of that party that wasn't a member of Polish United Workers' Party) and the vice-speaker of Sejm since October 26, 2005. From July 2, 2003 to May 31, 2005 Olejniczak was the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development. He was elected to Sejm on September 25, 2005 getting 31471 votes in 11 Sieradz district, candidating from SLD list. He was also a member of Sejm 2001-2005. www.sejm.gov.pl/poslowie/posel5/257.htmpl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojciech_OlejniczakComment: Maybe this is an example of the new generation of politicians, who was not affiliated with Solidarnosc or the PZPR ( Polish communist party). Ofcourse I have to be wary, because I don't know his family background. Especially in Poland, I find it very important that there is a independant, Polish left opposition which is not rooted in the PZPR tradition. So I hope that a Western-European stile Social-democracy can grow and exsist in Poland, with a strong support among the Polish working class, Middle class, students, young working people, women and the minority groups (White-Russian, Ukranian and other). In the tradition of pre-war Polska Partia Socjalistyczna, PPS, which exsisted from 1892 until 1948.
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Post by pieter on Aug 28, 2006 10:54:36 GMT -7
Dear fellow Polonists,
Before you might think I be a socialist, I prefer the Democratic party or the Civic Platform, moderate centre-left and centre-right parties, above SLD, Unia Pracy, SDPL and PPS, because often Socialist ideas dominate to much, and then you get a one sided progressive political agenda concentrated on the Working class, women rights and equality. I have nothing in common with Marxism, socialist workers idealism (gloryfying the proletarian class, and spitting on the bourgeoisie), democratic socialism, because I am not rooted in the working class (like many people are in the West and in the East). I think that the only reason SLD came to power was because it had and has a base in the Polish working class, who partly forgot the Communist past. (because a big part of the SLD are former PZPR party members and apparatchiks) In the West, Social-democratic concentration on equality, quantity (in materialistic matters and collectivisation of the education system), nivellation of income, decreased the quality of education and cultural progress, focussed to much on Social security (which damaged the spirit of the own initiative of individuals and groups), and affirmative action for migrant groups, which lead to dissatisfied original populations, which withdrew their traditional support for the European labour parties. The ballance was gone and people were irritated or frustrated by the forced political correct culture, affirmative action, forced equality (often at the expense of Freedom), to large administrations, high taxes (and complicated tax systems) and state bureaucracy. Polish Progressive politics and Social-democracy should focus on moderate reform (of the economy, adminstration, education, housing and healthcare), Social Capitalism (German Rhineland model), Moderate Polish patriotism (a Positive image and feeling about the country the Poles are living in), a Pro-European attitude (ofcourse my favor as being a Western-European with Polish roots), anti-corruption stand and an Pragmatic attitude to various political and social-economical issues.
Pieter
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bujno
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 648
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Post by bujno on Aug 28, 2006 11:32:26 GMT -7
Hello All, I've been following this forum for a week or so and found some posts interesting and inspiring. I thought that it would be proper to prsent myself here - as you seem to be a group that 'live a life together' and not just exchanging opinions or data. I was shocked by the depth and sensibility of some of the observations regarding the present day Poland of some of you, obviously living out of Poland and without the knowledge of the language. Some of the other I find rather superficial or biased, hope that's natural. I liked photographs of my city - Warszawa - Warsaw, I found here. On August 1st I was near the Uprising Monument with my wife and children, perhaps standing just next to the one that took the photos I hope this is ok for me to post here. Now my little comment for the good start in response to Pieter's about Wojciech Olejniczak: >Maybe this is an example of the new generation of politicians, who was not affiliated with Solidarnosc or the PZPR (Polish communist party). Ofcourse I have to be wary, because I don't know his family background. Especially in Poland, I find it very important that there is a independant, Polish left opposition which is not rooted in the PZPR tradition.< I think that the independent left is yet to be built in Poland (I say so being a centrist, perhaps slightly right-centrist). Olejniczak's party grew almost directly from the old-era PZPR party, incorporated its members, funds, buildings etc... Since you obviously know the Polish parties very well let me direcr your attention to an independent socialist (in the sense of good-old pre-war PPS) Ryszard Bugaj. Unfortunately he is a bit too slow too, just as someone has rightly depicted Geremek here. I still hope he'll someday come back to Sejm and we'll have a real left-side to outbalance the sooo heavy right side we now have
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Post by bescheid on Aug 28, 2006 12:52:19 GMT -7
Hallo Herr bujno
May I offer a heartfelt welcome aboard to you. As you surmise from the several appearances of guest observation that you have done, you now are confident that these are people of which you will feel comfortable with. And may I say, very rightly as so. For these are people that are very Polish from the bottoms of their hearts, in as much to some nationals currant of Poland.
For non-the-matter, they are people of respect.
As you may ascertain, I as a person, am not Polisch, for very probably, one of few Germans on board. One of part of the old world of the 1940's as that is my birthdate, and of the new world of post war. As so, very knowledgeable, for I survived, many were not so fortunate, for they were just Germans.
The Americans are a good people, and as such, need the respect that is to them to be deserved, ok. As to my personal experience as to Canada, for they offered not just freedom, but, freedom with out questions, and as so, the Americans.
On occasions, I will post news of German origin, but, that will also pertain to Poland, for is this not, a Polish forum? If perchance this will provide to you, a certain amount of consternation, then all means, say so please.
Charles
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Post by pieter on Aug 28, 2006 13:10:06 GMT -7
Hello All, I've been following this forum for a week or so and found some posts interesting and inspiring. I thought that it would be proper to prsent myself here - as you seem to be a group that 'live a life together' and not just exchanging opinions or data. I was shocked by the depth and sensibility of some of the observations regarding the present day Poland of some of you, obviously living out of Poland and without the knowledge of the language. Some of the other I find rather superficial or biased, hope that's natural. I liked photographs of my city - Warszawa - Warsaw, I found here. On August 1st I was near the Uprising Monument with my wife and children, perhaps standing just next to the one that took the photos I hope this is ok for me to post here. Now my little comment for the good start in response to Pieter's about Wojciech Olejniczak: >Maybe this is an example of the new generation of politicians, who was not affiliated with Solidarnosc or the PZPR (Polish communist party). Ofcourse I have to be wary, because I don't know his family background. Especially in Poland, I find it very important that there is a independant, Polish left opposition which is not rooted in the PZPR tradition.< I think that the independent left is yet to be built in Poland (I say so being a centrist, perhaps slightly right-centrist). Olejniczak's party grew almost directly from the old-era PZPR party, incorporated its members, funds, buildings etc... Since you obviously know the Polish parties very well let me direcr your attention to an independent socialist (in the sense of good-old pre-war PPS) Ryszard Bugaj. Unfortunately he is a bit too slow too, just as someone has rightly depicted Geremek here. I still hope he'll someday come back to Sejm and we'll have a real left-side to outbalance the sooo heavy right side we now have Bujno, You are very welcome here, and I enjoyed reading about your observations and your comment here. As I have to say humbly, I am from abroad, and you are from Warsaw, speak, read and write in Polish. You can read Polish newspapers and magazines, watch differant Polish chanals, and discuss the political and social situation in your city and country with your family, friends, colleages, neighbours and other fellow Varsovians and Poles (on websites or travelling through Poland). For me it is important to hear your statements, comments and contributions, because I really value and appreciate the contributions of Polish members or visitors of this Forum very much. You (Warsaw), Pawian (Krakow), Yanc (Manieczki, near Szczecin) and Zooba (Poznan) are important for me as direct reporters from Poland. And even if we speak about general issues that concern the Western world, American issues or general topics which are not special related to Poland, it is very interesting for me to hear the views, opinions and ideas of Poles. I think this is a habbit from more Poles and half-Poles from abroad (like I am), the Polish diaspora, to have a hunger for Polish news, feeling an emotional, historical and cultural connection to the country where my grandparents came from and where there is stil family. I quote you here for the second time; "I think that the independent left is yet to be built in Poland (I say so being a centrist, perhaps slightly right-centrist). Olejniczak's party grew almost directly from the old-era PZPR party, incorporated its members, funds, buildings etc... Since you obviously know the Polish parties very well let me direcr your attention to an independent socialist (in the sense of good-old pre-war PPS) Ryszard Bugaj. Unfortunately he is a bit too slow too, just as someone has rightly depicted Geremek here. I still hope he'll someday come back to Sejm and we'll have a real left-side to outbalance the sooo heavy right side we now have."I think that I agree with you, both on your personal political affiliation, and on the necessaty of a real Left-side to outbalance the sooo heavy right side of PiS, LPR, Civic Platform. And I must say that I am sympathetic towards the Civic Platform (PO). Just out of the democratic necassity of pluriformity and a politcal ballance I would agree with you. I hope that you can say more about the present political climate in Poland, the polish society in general and about your life and interests in Warsaw. Question: Do you think that it would be able to form a larger, Center left Polish Social-democratic ( Labour) party which is based on both the tradition of the PPS ( 1892- 1948), the good elements of the period 1989-2006 and the tradition, experiance and knowledge of the Western-European Social-democracy (The German SPD, the British Labour party, the French Parti Socialiste, the Dutch PvdA and the Scandinavian Social-democrats)? Would it be possible that the Social-democratic wing ( the non-communists of the SLD), the Unia-Pracy, SDPL and present PPS together with the Left wing of the Democratic party would form a large Polish Labour party? I am sure that the European PES ( party of European Socialists) and the European Social-democratic parties would be able to support such a process with logistical assistance, funds, training, equipment, educational material and personal contributions (trainers, teachers, training schools, seminars and workshops). I know for instance that the Dutch Labour party has a branch which is specially directed towards and specialized in Central- and eastern-Europe. Question 2: Is Samoobrona a Left or Rightwing political party in Polish eyes? Sometimes left and right are confusing, for instance the far right NPD is seen as Neo-Nazi, but many of it's standpoints are Neo-marxist. Link: www.alfredmozerstichting.nl/In Germany: www.wz-berlin.de/zkd/zcm/default.en.htmEuropean party of Socialists: www.pes.org/content/view/14
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Post by pieter on Aug 28, 2006 13:34:18 GMT -7
The Alfred Mozer Foundation
A brief history
The fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 had far-reaching effects in many fields, not least the international social democratic movement. Even the Dutch PvdA (Partij van de Arbeid: Labour Party) came to face new issues.
Like other political parties throughout Western Europe, the PvdA received countless requests for assistance from both real and putative 'sister' parties in Eastern Europe. In the former communist countries, new political parties were being founded almost daily. They included all the familiar political leanings and nuances. In the social democratic quarter, several political formations emerged as the established parties which had been in existence before the rise of communism re-formed. Various social democratic parties 'in exile' were able to return, some choosing to enter into alliances with the re-formed parties, others deciding to maintain their independence. Many of the communist parties shifted their stance to become socialist or even social democratic parties, while brand new social democratic parties were also formed. No matter what their origins, all these parties sought contact with their Western European counterparts.
There were various motives for these advances: in the case of the new and the re-formed parties it was to request assistance. After all, the members of these parties had been excluded from the political life of their respective countries for over forty years. They now had to build up a party 'from scratch', while organizing an immediate election campaign at the same time. The necessary knowledge and resources were conspicuous by their absence. By contrast, the reformed communists did have knowledge and resources. Their organizations remained more or less intact. They had accommodation and funds, and enjoyed what amounted to a monopoly in terms of political control and direction. Moreover, it would later prove that they had managed to maintain considerable support among the population. Nevertheless, these former communist parties also called upon us for assistance. A relationship with the Western European social democratic movement would be seen as recognition of their 'reformation', in both senses of the word. It would also be seen as a first step towards formal recognition as a social democratic party by means of membership of the Socialist International (SI). This was important, in that it could be used to gain a competitive advantage over other parties - including social democratic parties. A relationship with Western European social democracy therefore entailed more than assistance or recognition: it was a political asset.
Given the large number of requests for assistance received, the PvdA had to choose which parties it was able and willing to help. In the first instance, these were the newly established and re-established social democratic parties. In the eyes of the PvdA, the communists were in absolute discredit, no matter how 'reformed' they claimed to be. Rather than become involved with those previously in power, we preferred to support the 'platform movements' active in many countries. These platforms were collections of groups and individuals formerly considered 'dissident'. They included social democrats, though often in a marginal role. The nature of our relationship was thus largely predetermined: our prime duty was to answer calls for practical assistance rather than those for political contact.
Fortunately, the Dutch government enabled the country's political parties to offer help to their counterparts elsewhere by means of subsidies for political training and education. The government considered it a national duty to help in the development of democracy in Central and Eastern Europe. Clearly, this would require the development of democratic political parties in the relevant countries. While the Dutch government could not and would not provide direct support to political parties in other countries, it allowed the Dutch parties to offer assistance to their international counterparts.
In fact, the PvdA had set up an Eastern European institute even before the fall of the Berlin Wall: the Alfred Mozer Foundation. This undertakes training activities in Eastern Europe on behalf of the PvdA and has now been active in this field for over ten years.
There have been many changes in Eastern Europe and these have been reflected in the manner in which the Alfred Mozer Foundation works. The Foundation now has permanent partners in many countries whereby it no longer has to operate on the basis of 'trial and error'. The partners include several 'reformed' communist parties, such as the Socialist Party of Hungary. These parties have now shown themselves to have truly reformed and that they can count on the ongoing support of a large proportion of the electorate under a system of full democracy and freedom of choice.
The Alfred Mozer Foundation has now shifted its focus slightly, concentrating less on Central Europe and rather more on Eastern and South-Eastern European. The Foundation's work is intended to help in developing stable democracy. In the case of the so-called 'pre-accession' countries, i.e. those wishing to join the European Union shortly, it is no longer enough to state that democracy has yet to establish itself and that they 'will get around to it'. A fully democratic political system is one of the main preconditions for EU membership.
Partij van de Arbeid
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bujno
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 648
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Post by bujno on Aug 28, 2006 13:46:00 GMT -7
Witam Panie Bescheid Thank you for your heartfelt welcome. I must and I do believe you when you connect the comfort of staying in between the people on the board I wish to surely experience with Polish nature from the bottoms of their hearts,Polish nationals, as well as Americans which are good people. Although I am a litlle suprised but nonetheless very happy by your very national oriented welcome I assure that i will try to say so while consternated and hope you will do the same as you very well understand the marvel of surviving in spite of plain being just a national, no more.
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Post by pieter on Aug 28, 2006 14:01:10 GMT -7
Witam Panie Bescheid Thank you for your heartfelt welcome. I must and I do believe you when you connect the comfort of staying in between the people on the board I wish to surely experience with Polish nature from the bottoms of their hearts,Polish nationals, as well as Americans which are good people. Although I am a litlle suprised but nonetheless very happy by your very national oriented welcome I assure that i will try to say so while consternated and hope you will do the same as you very well understand the marvel of surviving in spite of plain being just a national, no more. Good reaction, One of the great things of this Forum is the tolerance in which people with Polish, German (Bescheid) and Russian (Eric) affiliations can stay together and can discuss topics in a civilized manner, where on other Forums sometimes war brakes loose. I have to say that I was raised by a mother who experianced the war in Poland, but raised me with no hatred towards the Germans or Russians. In the contrary I was raised in the best European multi-national tradition with German and Russian classical music, Russian folk music, German literature, art and cinema, next to Russian art, cinema and literature. Like everyone we are rooted in our national culture, but in the same time we are citizens of our continent and the world. Like the largest Polish minority in the past (before 1939) the Jews, the Poles are spread over the world in the Polish Diaspora, and in that perspective Poles speak all the important languages of the world, know many cultures, and in their contact with their country of origin bring the world back to Poland. I hope that today and in the future the 40 million Poles will stay in contact with the 20 million Poles in the Diaspora, and vice versa. It is great to have you on board, and I hope that you enjoy your stay and participation here. Thank you! Pieter
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bujno
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 648
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Post by bujno on Aug 28, 2006 14:13:52 GMT -7
Well, I must excuse for the initial mess I have perhaps made in the already complicated Polish parties categorization ( I hope that the Poland dwellers will correct me if I mistake my personal views for objective facts...). I called myself a centrist with a slight turn to right - and I think that Platforma Obywatelska - PO is just so. I know that some people treat PO as a right-wing party, as you do, and they are probably right, as well. I think that all depend how we define the left and right. Poland is generally 'more to the right', wew can't help it after so many years of obligatory real-socialism I think that the answer to your first question is 'yes'. But, what I think is funny, that would be possible after the complete defeat of the communist-tradition left (which hasn't occurred yet) and after the unstable voters voting for LPRand Samoobrona (and, paradox, partly for PIS) will swap preferences. Question two - In my eyes Samoobrona is most of all a populist party, they will say (P R E T E N D) anything that would make them a party in power... So, they mix left and right fundamentals in the manner that makes a normal brain shake and shiver
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Post by pieter on Aug 28, 2006 15:34:07 GMT -7
Well, I must excuse for the initial mess I have perhaps made in the already complicated Polish parties categorization ( I hope that the Poland dwellers will correct me if I mistake my personal views for objective facts...). I called myself a centrist with a slight turn to right - and I think that Platforma Obywatelska - PO is just so. I know that some people treat PO as a right-wing party, as you do, and they are probably right, as well. I think that all depend how we define the left and right. Poland is generally 'more to the right', wew can't help it after so many years of obligatory real-socialism I think that the answer to your first question is 'yes'. But, what I think is funny, that would be possible after the complete defeat of the communist-tradition left (which hasn't occurred yet) and after the unstable voters voting for LPRand Samoobrona (and, paradox, partly for PIS) will swap preferences. Question two - In my eyes Samoobrona is most of all a populist party, they will say (P R E T E N D) anything that would make them a party in power... So, they mix left and right fundamentals in the manner that makes a normal brain shake and shiver Bujno, I enjoy your contributions very much, thank you for your answers on my two questions. I have to explain to you that in Poland I prefer the moderate Middle of politics, because of the past with it's Stalinist and Marxist-Leninist opression, and the reactionairy counter force of the ultra-conservatives and far right Nationalists. So in Poland I like everybody who is moderate, the moderate (liberal) intellectual wing of Catholicism ( Znak/ Klub Inteligencji Katolickiej/ KOR/ and people like Tadeusz Mazowiecki), centre left liberal Social-democrats (of the seventees and eightees opposition against the PZPR in KOR and Solidarnosc), and social-liberals (Centre-left; Partia Demokratyczna - demokraci.pl) and conservative-liberals (Centre-right; Platforma Obywatelska, your party). I hope that the one day there will be the complete defeat of the communist-tradition left, and that it may be replaced by a true Polish centre-left or Polish Social-democracy. The point is that when I looked at the Left parties websites, that they were boring compared to the slick, trendy and dynamic websites of the rightwing parties. (I can only look at it visually, graphically, with an artist look, because I can't read Polish) And I really hope that those unstable voters voting for LPR and Samoobrona will vote for another party next time. I dislike those two Populist parties that much that I would prefer those voters choosing the SLD, in staid of this two xenophobe, anti-European and lunatic parties. I think it is a Western thing to hate the far right even more than the far left, because we have never wintnessed or experianced a Communist dictatorship. We only remember the Nazi-occupation, the Apartheid (Dutch word, and implemented by the Dutch immigrant, president Verwoerd) in South-Africa, the rightwing militairy dictatorships in Southern-America. As a kid I had and have sentimental memories about the Polish Peoples republic in the seventees and eightees, when I went to the cinema and the Zoo for the first time, and saw mountains for the first time too. Later (since my 12th year on) you wintnessed the tention in East-Germany, a country that looked like a large prison, and that in Poland there were the grey green and grey blue uniforms everywhere and the special units of the ZOMO. You felt the danger and the pressure of the period of the Martial law in Poland refers to the time from December 13, 1981 to July 22, 1983, when we in Holland were very worried about our family in Poznan and Warsaw and the friends of my mother. And in 1988 I witnessed the depression and poverty in Poznan, when people were very depressed about their future, and I witnessed a lot of alcoholism in that city. The fall of Communism was a great relief for us and we were sorry for those family members who had never wintnessed that glorious time. Pieter
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bujno
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 648
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Post by bujno on Aug 29, 2006 4:28:54 GMT -7
I greatly appreciate most of the intellectual formations you've named, I grew with them and fed my mind with them.But I never approved any approachment the communist or post-comunist left some of these propose and practice. I am more to the right now, center- right. I have no problem accepting some of the PIS program, no wonder- it is partly identical to PO's. Demokraci.pl are the descendants of old Unia Demokratyczna, a wonderful party I did vote for in the past, andvery much regret it disappeared. Unfortunetely its leaders were unable to stop the split between its right and left margins. THe Demokraci.pl are the descendants of the Unia Demokratyczna left, the PO are the descendants of the Unia Demokratyczna right. I like your contrubutions too, in fact you sound as someone from somewhere around me, except that you are writing in English. An out of the topic link you might be interested in: holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=art&dzial=o&id=4&lang=en
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Post by pieter on Aug 29, 2006 5:49:16 GMT -7
I greatly appreciate most of the intellectual formations you've named, I grew with them and fed my mind with them.But I never approved any approachment the communist or post-comunist left some of these propose and practice. I am more to the right now, center- right. I have no problem accepting some of the PIS program, no wonder- it is partly identical to PO's. Demokraci.pl are the descendants of old Unia Demokratyczna, a wonderful party I did vote for in the past, andvery much regret it disappeared. Unfortunetely its leaders were unable to stop the split between its right and left margins. THe Demokraci.pl are the descendants of the Unia Demokratyczna left, the PO are the descendants of the Unia Demokratyczna right. I like your contrubutions too, in fact you sound as someone from somewhere around me, except that you are writing in English. An out of the topic link you might be interested in: holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=art&dzial=o&id=4&lang=enBujno, Thank you for your new and interesting reply for me, because the information and knowledge (your personal one) and so experiance with living, examening and studying the social-political situation in your country. There was a nice fellow-Varsovian here a while ago named Adam, who shared "our" interest. I don't know if you have read his contributions in an earlier stage. He was also a Civic Platform (PO) supporter, and educated man as you are. Unfortunately he disappeared, I think because of his scientific work and travelling. Can you tell me more about the intellectual formations I've named, which fed your mind as you say, and you lived with them. I can understand from a moral or ethical point of view why you never approved any approachment to the communist or post-comunist left some of these propose(d) and practice(d). I think I am more centre-left than you, so in Polish perspective Unia Demokratyczna left. But as a true Liberal-democrat or rightwing Social-democrat (in Dutch perspective the Social-liberal wing of the PvdA) I totally respect your position and intellectual motivation to the right or center- right. In the Netherlands I was a supporter of the center-left/centre right Purple coalition in the ninetees of the labourparty, rightwing Liberals (Dutch PO) and the small social-liberal party of that time. I am actually without a party in the Dutch political spectrum, because I don't feel connected to any of the parties, not the three left wing parties, not the centre right, not the two Orthodox Protestant Christian party, not the large Christian-democratic party (which in Holland is a 3 stream party of Calvinists, Lutheranians and Catholics), and not to the three right (some say far right) Populist parties that are emerging on the scene right now. I am independant and an outsider in Dutch politics right now. I always voted left, labour or the Green party, but last time I voted for the Christian Union, a Social-christian party, that gets votes of Protestants, Catholics and even left-intellectuals in the Netherlands. My problem with PIS is that it has affiliated itself with the LPR and Samoobrona, parties I don't like because of reasons I have already written down. In present day Poland my favorite is Demokraci.pl (the descendants of the Unia Demokratyczna left), the PO (the Unia Demokratyczna right) is my second option. Poland is difficult for me to understand sometimes, because it is a Slavian country, and it is very religious, predominantly Catholic. As a half-Pole and Secular-Catholic, who is influenced by Calvinist ideas, Western-European Social-democracy and Liberalism, the Dutch and German branches of Christian-democracy, the American Democratic party, Jewish philosophy and literature (I am a great fan of Franz Kafka and the Humanist philosophy of Emmanuel Levinas), ( translated) Polish literature of the second half of the twentieth century (very dark sometimes, but very connected to my own melancholic and sometimes even fatalist being), and ofcourse Polish art. To say it otherwise I come from a region in Europe who is completely dominated by Germanistic culture, Dutch-German-English. Anglo-American and German. Dutch really don't like to atmid it (hate to admid it sometimes), but Dutch is very close to German, and the German cultural influence is very near. I for instance love German literature, German philosophy ( Kant, Schopenhauer, Nietsche, Husserl), German music ( Bach, Beethoven, Schumann), German art (Expressionism, Anselm Kiefer, max Ernst, Bauhous, Dada and etc.), modern German cinema ( Fassbinder, Wenders a.o.), German popmusic ( Nina Hagen -knew all her songs from my head-, Nena, Propaganda, Einsturzende Neubauten, Kraftwerk and etc.). At home we were totally focussed on English and French culture, British and French movies (next to Italian and Russian ones - Tarkovski -), especially British humor (comedy), BBC detectives, Shakespeare plays and etc. My fascination for (Western-) Germany and German history was not shared by my mother (who never was fond of that country), my father (who read German books, but prefered English and French literature) and my sister (who had the littlest interest in Germany of all of us). So this was a personal thing. And I have a logical explanation for it, Germany lays inbetween my mothers land and my fathers land, and the country played a big role in both Polish and Dutch history, both in a negative and the positive way. Today Poland is becomming more and more important in my life and maybe is slowly beginning to replace Germany as the most important European subject. I really like your contrubutions, but in my case I miss in the present moment someone like you in my environment, because most people over here are very materialistic and pragmatic. The struggle for life takes all their time and energy, and the world of ideas, exchange of thought and interest in others opinions are not on their mind right now. So you could say I miss a sort of intellectual background right now in my personal life, which I had in my student time in Amsterdam (1990-1992) and my art academy time here in Arnhem (1992-1995). Dutch colonalizationAh, the Dutch colonalization, the Dutch menonites, together with the Germans they went east, to have agrarian communes and to be craftsmen and merchants in the cities. The Dutch are everywhere during the centuries with their colonies (New York = New Amsterdam, Jakarta Indonesia was Batavia, Ghana -slave trade-, South-Africa, Suriname, the Dutch Antiles, and the Dutch agrarian communities in Brazil, Northern-America and Scandinavia. Dutch farmers settle again in Poland and Ukraine nowadays, because their lives are made impossible by the Dutch rules, legislation and EU-rules). I have to tell you that we have a Dutch habbit, we like to travel abroad to escape our densly populated little country, and we like to criticize ourself, our people and government, we mock ourselves like the Brits do, and when abroad we like to hear other languages, eat other food, drink foreign wines and beers, and be liberated from ourselves and compatriots for a while. To be honest, we are sometimes not glad to meet other compatriots abroad. A national habbit is to complain about he behaviour of compatriots we met elsewhere. This has roots in our shame of the dark sides of our past, that we were one of the biggest Slave traders, that our government in the seventeenth century aproved of Piracy as a policy (the Pircay letters), that we are connected to the Apartheid, because the White South-Africans are a sort of Old-Dutch speaking people. We have something simular to the Germans, for a long period Patriotism or Nationalism was taboo. Nowadays as a bomerang from the past a Populist or Nationalist sort of Patriotism is back in Dutch politics. Gone was our initial shame of the cooperation of the Dutch police, Dutch railways, and Dutch Nazi movement with the deportation of the 100.000 Dutch jews. We have a good name in Israel and other countries, but always question that good name, because we know that the majority remained silent in the war, and that probably more people cooperated with the Nazi's than there were people in the resistance. Final I want to say that I don't hate my country or my compatriots and that the past can not be undone, in a way I love my country and Europe, but I also see the things that are wrong. For instance I don't like the negative attitude of much Dutch and other European politicians and civilians towards the Poles, like "The Poles are comming, compared to the Russians - read Bolsjewists- are comming in the past". I don't like that as a half Pole and I don't like that as a 100% Dutch person, who speaks Dutch without an accent, and German and English too. Pieter
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Post by pieter on Aug 30, 2006 5:34:13 GMT -7
Comment on Bujno's link! Dutch settlement in PolandDevelopment of Dutch settlements in the 16th and 17th centuriesI read the artcile with great interest and found out that Most Mennonites come from the North of the Netherlands, from a region which has a seperate identity from the Centre and Southern regions from my country, Friesland ( Fryslân in Frisian language), the land of the Frisian lakes, Frisian Farm land and (Frisian cows and the Frisian horse race; black horses) and Frisian Nationalism. Frisian National Party en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisian_National_Partywww.fnp.nl/ (Their website in Frisian language) It is a part of the Netherlands which has been increasingly Dutchified, by the incomming of large amounts of Holland newcommers (settlers; Import the frisian call the people who come from the rest of the country). The Frisians and Hollanders were often at war with eachother, and that's why the Frisians have stil a strong seperate identity, language, culture, flag and region. And from this proud and strong people the most Mennonite settlers in Poland were made of. I have to say that most Frisians are moderate people who do not like seperatism, but they surely like their authonomy and their own language and culture (like the Polish Kashubians). When I read the article and see the Anabaptist sect it also looks to me like few of the dangerous sects of the 20th century, the Branch Davidians (David Koresh), the Christian Identity, Jehova Wintesses, Mormons abd etc. I say this because of this part of the story in the website: In 1535, the majority of the German and Dutch Anabaptists arrived in Münster, where they believed the second coming of Christ was to take place. In that town, called by the Anabaptists New Jerusalem, the faithful supposedly were to crush all the heathens, that is, people from outside their sect.
The purposeful actions of the Anabaptists provoked disturbances, riots, and pogroms, which were primarily directed at the town patriciate, and had to be suppressed by troops summoned by the Münster's bishop. As a result of the army intervention, many supporters of the sect perished; the group leaders were executed and their bodies were displayed in cages, which were suspended from the tower of the local cathedral as a warning.The later Mennonites were ofcourse more peaceful people, and some of them stil live in Communes in Southern-America, where there are stil isolated German speaking Communes of Mennonites, who live according to their strict interpretation of the bible. I saw a Danish documentry about them a few years back. They looked a bit like the American Amish, because they also did not use Modern means of transportation and communication, and lived segregated from the local Southern-American population. Actuallly they spoke a 16th century version of German. The article also says a great deal of religious tolerance of Poland in that days, where Protestants and jews find a safe heaven for the persecution in their own Western-European or Southern-European countries. " At the beginning of the 16th century, Mennonites began to settle in ?u?awy Wi?lane and in the vicinity of Gda?sk, where their freedom of religion was guaranteed. At that time, Poland was considered a country with religious tolerance and a wide range of liberties. Their arrival was advanced by Jan ?aski, who was probably the most prominent representative of Polish reformation. He visited Friesland several times and met Menno Simons. Together they engaged in doctrinal discussions." Thank you very much for this interesting link, Bujno!
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bujno
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 648
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Post by bujno on Aug 30, 2006 7:47:32 GMT -7
I have first entered the forum some two weeks ago, I did not read the old stuff, I just found the forum interesting. But I must say that it is slowly, and to my astonishment, showing its other sides too, after I have registered This is probably natural. ZNAK was a form of Catholic opposition since 1956 in Poland, very weak and very controlled by Moscow. Nonetheless they have maneged to form think-tank of moderate-left Catholic democratic opposition that greatly influenced Polish intellectual life inder the Soviets. THe weekly 'Tygodnik Powszechny' newspaper headed by Jerzy Turowicz was something incredible in Poland before 1989. After 1989 things have gone complicated buy thats a diffrerent story. Almost all educated Poles opposing communist rule have ALL read Tygodnik Powszechny pre-89 (and 'Kultura' of Jerzy Giedroyc, bui it was edited in Paris). KIK is an organization of secular Catholics - it was - as everything controlled by the state - but had enormous success as another think-tank, with Jerzy Zawieyski being its president in the past. ( (And 'your' Tadeusz Mazowiecki vice As to PIS. You are right - the coalition with ' populists is difficult to accept. I have mentioned that their programme was not so different from PO, not what they are actually doing.. Pieter, in case I might have disappeared, too -- I will come back from time to time And my name is Wojciech, for friends Wojtek (pronuonce Voyteck)
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