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Post by bescheid on Aug 30, 2006 8:04:03 GMT -7
Bujno I just want to relay to you of this: Although, I have not responded or contributed {sorry} to your exchanges with Pieter, non-the- less, I have followed with very much interest to your both exchanges. I have found the both of you; your self and Pieter, as very learned and articulate in the precise manner of intellectuals you both are. It is also very nice to read through your poetry exchanges with Pieter as a pleasure. I do thank you for all that you do Charles
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Post by pieter on Aug 30, 2006 9:17:57 GMT -7
I have first entered the forum some two weeks ago, I did not read the old stuff, I just found the forum interesting. But I must say that it is slowly, and to my astonishment, showing its other sides too, after I have registered This is probably natural. ZNAK was a form of Catholic opposition since 1956 in Poland, very weak and very controlled by Moscow. Nonetheless they have maneged to form think-tank of moderate-left Catholic democratic opposition that greatly influenced Polish intellectual life inder the Soviets. THe weekly 'Tygodnik Powszechny' newspaper headed by Jerzy Turowicz was something incredible in Poland before 1989. After 1989 things have gone complicated buy thats a diffrerent story. Almost all educated Poles opposing communist rule have ALL read Tygodnik Powszechny pre-89 (and 'Kultura' of Jerzy Giedroyc, bui it was edited in Paris). KIK is an organization of secular Catholics - it was - as everything controlled by the state - but had enormous success as another think-tank, with Jerzy Zawieyski being its president in the past. ( (And 'your' Tadeusz Mazowiecki vice As to PIS. You are right - the coalition with ' populists is difficult to accept. I have mentioned that their programme was not so different from PO, not what they are actually doing.. Pieter, in case I might have disappeared, too -- I will come back from time to time And my name is Wojciech, for friends Wojtek (pronuonce Voyteck) Wojciech, Thank you very much for this extended information about the Moderate Catholic opposition in the Peoples republic of Poland, these organisations, think tanks and newspapers in my view were as important as the later KOR and Solidarnosc opposition, because they formed the roots and the core of the Centre of the present Polish politics. This moderate Catholic wing is very important in present day Poland with it's rightwing Populism and Catholic fundementalism. These guys were as important as people like Milosz, Kolakowski, Walesa, Bujak, Michnik, Kuron, Geremek and Frasyniuk (Partie Demokratyczna for independant, Free Poland. Yes, I have to admid that this Forum has it's other sides to like most Forums on the Internet. Characters can clash, the Forum can be slow, and like outside the Forum people are differant, with differant interests. The shadow side from Internet in my view is that people often are not searching for debate, but only search for things they already know, and which are attached to their taste and opinion. So it can be silent for a while when you post a subject, which is not in the interest of other Forum members, you can get no reponse or be fiercly criticized. That's part of the game. A Forum member from Russia (St.Petersburg) wrote something about this Forum I totally subscribe:
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Post by pieter on Aug 30, 2006 9:38:31 GMT -7
Wojciech,
In present day Poland I find it actually very important that the influence and activity of Moderate Catholic and Liberal intellectuals is strong, because of the power of reactionairy intolerant National-religious powers inside and outside the Polish government. Poland due to it's recent and further past must in my opinion be careful for far right and far left directions, because of the legacy of Endecia and the PZPR, and the power position of the army both in pre-war Poland as in the Polish Peoples republic (where the militairy wing of the PZPR was very strong).
Moderate Poland must preserve the unique position of Poland in Central-Europe, as a Transatlantic country (between Northern-America and Europe), as an independant souvereign democracy, a Slavian Catholic country with respect for ethnic and religious minorities, a country that has learned form totalitarian opression, and has token the chance to built a new society based on the principles of a representative parlaimentairy democracy, free-market economy, and a continuous Reform program. The good thing of the present government and some opposition parties is that it wants to fight corruption and formulates the Polish foreign and internal interrests clearly. The less elements are the decreasing level of tolerance and some troubled foreign relations.
The last thing I want to say here is that I trust the Polish judgement in what direction the majority of Poles want their country to go. I hope that the decreased interest in politcs will change as more Poles will come to see that their vote count, when they see the result of the policies of a government that includes LPR and Samoobrona.
I hope that the Civic Platform and Partie Demokratyczna suscribe the anti-corruption campaign though.
Pieter
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Aug 30, 2006 12:36:11 GMT -7
You are generally absolutely right. But I think there are some great ‘but’s’. There is no danger of Poland turning into some army-led junta! Comparing todays, free, fully democratic Poland to pre-war problems with democracy or with the post-war period of dependency is a misunderstanding. I really dislike LPR and Samoobrona, and I do not support PIS but let’s not exaggerate. They are not a threat to democracy. They are even not a threat to the further membership in EU. They are simply a threat to the speed, rate of further integration. So Poles wished in democratic elections and the left-oriented joutnalists in some of the media must try to learn that Poland has a full right to move at the pace her citizens wish to. And both the western journalists and Poland's political patners in EU must learn that Poland is fully justified to do things concerning Poland the Polish way - inside EU. That Poland it is not as secularized as France and it is not as multikulti as Germany and so on and so on. Andrzej Lepper in the governement is the end of some era in post-89 Poland, and is something really sad, is an obstacle and a waste of time, but let’s try to look at it another way, too. He was not assasinated on political reasons like a populist Pin Fortuyn prior to his election. I really prefer alive populist in my governement (4 years is not that long) than politically assasinated one. And what about other EU countries? Bossi from Liga Lombarda in Berlusconi’s governement, Jorg Haider in Austrian governement, Jean-Marie Le Pen gaining some 20% votes in presidential elcetions in France, Ronald Schill in German Hamburg in coalition with CDU. Poland is by no means an exception in the process of a sudden right-turn here and there throughout Europe.
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Aug 30, 2006 12:47:53 GMT -7
My pleasure Charles, dziekuje bardzo!
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Post by pieter on Aug 30, 2006 13:46:53 GMT -7
You are generally absolutely right. But I think there are some great ‘but’s’. There is no danger of Poland turning into some army-led junta! Comparing todays, free, fully democratic Poland to pre-war problems with democracy or with the post-war period of dependency is a misunderstanding. I really dislike LPR and Samoobrona, and I do not support PIS but let’s not exaggerate. They are not a threat to democracy. They are even not a threat to the further membership in EU. They are simply a threat to the speed, rate of further integration. So Poles wished in democratic elections and the left-oriented joutnalists in some of the media must try to learn that Poland has a full right to move at the pace her citizens wish to. And both the western journalists and Poland's political patners in EU must learn that Poland is fully justified to do things concerning Poland the Polish way - inside EU. That Poland it is not as secularized as France and it is not as multikulti as Germany and so on and so on. Andrzej Lepper in the governement is the end of some era in post-89 Poland, and is something really sad, is an obstacle and a waste of time, but let’s try to look at it another way, too. He was not assasinated on political reasons like a populist Pin Fortuyn prior to his election. I really prefer alive populist in my governement (4 years is not that long) than politically assasinated one. And what about other EU countries? Bossi from Liga Lombarda in Berlusconi’s governement, Jorg Haider in Austrian governement, Jean-Marie Le Pen gaining some 20% votes in presidential elcetions in France, Ronald Schill in German Hamburg in coalition with CDU. Poland is by no means an exception in the process of a sudden right-turn here and there throughout Europe. Wojtek, I enjoyed reading your reply, and agree with most of your statements, and hope that my previous post were not provocative or to over critical towards Poland. Your writing is so good, because they put things into persepective and you make an effort to scetch the right proportion. I am someone from Western-Europe, who comes from a country as secularized as France and as multikulti as Germany. Poland (Warszawa August 5 - 10) was a cultural confrontation, because maybe I have been alienated of my own Catholic past. I just want to state that I think that you have differant kind of wings in the Catholic chuch, and that I belong to the more moderate, liberal wing. You are right when you state that " There is no danger of Poland turning into some army-led junta!" I am disappointed though that the PiS/ LPR/ Samoobrona government is a threat to the speed, rate of further integration in the EU. Although the criticizm and Euro-scepsis I do believe that a fast integration of Poland in the EU is benefitial for Poland and the EU. I regret the foreign view of Poland as a corrupt country, and hope therefor that this government or it's follow up (after the next elections) will succeed in decreasing or eliminating corruption and fraud. Wojtek, I really think that the Western journalists and Poland's political patners in EU know and accept that Poland is entitled, prepared and willing to do things concerning Poland the Polish way - inside EU, because every European country has it's own National way of doing things. So, other countries may criticize Poland, it's press may be dissatisfied with some of the measures of Polish politics and some policies of the Polish government, they know that that course is democratically approved by the Polish vote, and so legitemate. Sure there will be differances between us, Wojtek, you are a Pole and I am a Hollander, a Roman-Catholic and a secular-liberal. Andrzej Lepper looks as a clown to me, and it is imbelievable that he is the Deputy Prime Minister of Poland and Minister of Agriculture. How can such a person be the minister of such an important ministry in a large country of 40 million people, which is largly is an agrarian state. I don't think he is able to negociate, devellop and implement the necassery reforms to safe the Polish agrarian sector, and to make it competetive in the economical struggle with other agrariancountries. Ofcourse I would prefer a PSL minister in a PiS- PO- PSL government, but that is wishful (Utopic) thinking. And again you are right when you state:And I know that Roman Giertych ( LPR) is the Minister of Education, and that that might have an influence on the Polish education system. However from my Dutch political experiance (as voter, newsreader and short time activist) I know that it takes often more time than one (Government) term to change an education system. Thank God that Poland is not as secularized as France and it is not as multicultural as Germany, because it has enough other problems to coap with. Nobody would like to have the integration problems and tension which exsists in France (riots in the ban lieu's; fear of civil war or uncontrolable area's), or the political extreme's (the far right NPD and Turkish Grey Wolves, and the far left Autonomen -Squaters- and Kurd PKK, next to Muslim extremists who want to blow up trains) and unemloyement rate of Germany. I know that Poland has a huge unemployment too, but thank God that's one of Poland's few problems (next to the state of the infrastructure in large parts of the country and the corruption problem). In the Netherlands there was an abnormal climate the last years, and yes that is seen abroad, the political assasinations of Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh in 2002 and 2004, and the culture of death threats towards left and right politicians. We have the problem of a few hundred islamic extremists who plot against the democratic system and culture of the Netherlands. From a soft, overtolerant, political correct country, with affirmative action, a Left dominance in the cultural world, society, media and politics (even the right was dominated by the social-liberal wings in the ninetees), the Netherlands suddenly moved towards the right, and is seen as a Rightwing-Populist country by German intellectuals, journalists and writers. Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh became a sort of Dutch martyrs after their death, and the power and influence of Pim Fortuyn after his death was even greater than before his death. Other parties adobted his ideas, which were actually a mix of left and rightwing ideas. Yes, you are right about other European countries with their far right parties, Rightwing-extemism and Populism rose everywhere in Europe. Pieter
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bujno
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Post by bujno on Aug 31, 2006 8:45:09 GMT -7
Poland has a frightening 15% unemployment, that’s a sad truth. But if we wish to compare it with the unemployment in Germany, which has actually happened, we should compare it with the unemployment rate in German Eastern Lands, which is exceeding the Polish mean, not the Federal Republic as a whole ( ~11%). Than we will see more precisely how Poland is doing in spite of the enormous funds pumped into the Germany-Ost by Germany-West ( some 40% of the East’s spending comes from the West). Also, while we are all always very concerned that the Polish economy goes smoothly, we should for now relax to see that the dire straits of politics ceased to impress Polish ecomomy. It has a healthy GNP growth between 5% and 6 % now. And that is in spite of the stagnation in our major economic partner -Germany with 0.9% GNP growth and in spite of political problems with Polish export to Russia. Stagnation in Germany is slowly but steadily coming to an end, all Europe is cheerful, we too, as the economy will rise futher. Wojtek
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Post by pieter on Aug 31, 2006 12:21:46 GMT -7
Poland has a frightening 15% unemployment, that’s a sad truth. But if we wish to compare it with the unemployment in Germany, which has actually happened, we should compare it with the unemployment rate in German Eastern Lands, which is exceeding the Polish mean, not the Federal Republic as a whole ( ~11%). Than we will see more precisely how Poland is doing in spite of the enormous funds pumped into the Germany-Ost by Germany-West ( some 40% of the East’s spending comes from the West). Also, while we are all always very concerned that the Polish economy goes smoothly, we should for now relax to see that the dire straits of politics ceased to impress Polish ecomomy. It has a healthy GNP growth between 5% and 6 % now. And that is in spite of the stagnation in our major economic partner -Germany with 0.9% GNP growth and in spite of political problems with Polish export to Russia. Stagnation in Germany is slowly but steadily coming to an end, all Europe is cheerful, we too, as the economy will rise futher. Wojtek Wojtek, Yeah, 15% unemployment that's a high unemployment rate, which is not good indeed. Comparing it with the unemployment in Germany, Germny has 5 million unemployed people (which is a much as the total population of Denmark). There is a huge gap in wealth, education and the employment figures of West- and East- Germany. After the DDR economy collapsed not many new companies came in the place of the closed old State Firms. The Treuhand ( Treuhandanstalt or Treuhand agency) was the agency that privatized the East German state owned enterprises ( Volkseigenen Betriebe). Created by the Volkskammer on June 17, 1990, it oversaw the restructuring and selling of about 8,500 firms with initially over 4 million employees. Its operations drew heavy criticism for unnecessary closing off of profitable businesses, misuse and waste of funds and unnecessary layoffs. When its operations ended in 1994, it had amassed 260 to 270b DM in debt. I can understand that the Unemployment in East-Germany exceeds the Polish undemployement, because Poland has attracted more investments, some succesful privatized State companies and a lot of foreign companies that built their production lines in Poland. The Federal Republic Germany as a whole has less unemployment (11%), but it's economy is not doing that well. Economy of GermanyGermany is one of the world's most highly developed market economies. It is the world's third largest economy in USD exchange-rate terms, the fifth largest by purchasing power parity ( PPP) and the largest economy in Europe. Recent performance has not been dynamic, however, and the German economy is marked by vulnerability to external shocks, domestic structural problems, and continued difficulties in fueling formerly communist East Germany. Germans describe their economic system as " social market economy". An extensive array of social services is provided. Although the state intervenes in the economy through the provision of subsidies to selected sectors and the ownership of some segments of the economy, competition and free enterprise are promoted as a matter of government policy. Since reunification in 1990, Germany has seen annual average real growth of only about 1.5% and stubbornly high unemployment. The best performance since reunification was registered in 2000, when real growth reached 3.0%. In 2003, Germany experienced a negative GDP growth of about -0.1%. Estimated growth rate in 2006: +2.0%. Economy of PolandSince its return to democracy, Poland has steadfastly pursued a policy of liberalising the economy and today stands out as one of the most successful and open examples of the transition from a partially state-capitalist market economy to a primarily privately owned market economy. The privatisation of small and medium state-owned companies and a liberal law on establishing new firms have allowed the development of an aggressive private sector, followed by a development of consumer rights organisations later on. Restructuring and privatisation of " sensitive sectors" (e.g., coal, steel, railways, and energy) has begun. The biggest privatisations so far were a sale of Telekomunikacja Polska, a national telecom to France Telecom ( 2000) and an issue of 30% shares of the biggest Polish bank, PKO BP, on the Polish stockmarket ( 2004). Poland has a large agricultural sector of private farms, that could be a leading producer of food in the European Union now that Poland is a member. Challenges remain, especially under-investment. Structural reforms in health care, education, the pension system, and state administration have resulted in larger-than-expected fiscal pressures. Warsaw leads Central Europe in foreign investment and needs a continued large inflow. GDP growth had been strong and steady from 1993 to 2000 with only a short slowdown from 2001 to 2002. The prospect of closer integration with the European Union has put the economy back on track, with growth of 3.7% annually in 2003, a rise from 1.4% annually in 2002. In 2004 GDP growth equalled 5.4%, and in 2005 3.3%. Forecasted GDP for 2006 is 5.0%. Although the Polish economy is currently undergoing an economic progress, there are many challenges ahead. The most notable task on the horizon is the preparation of the economy (through continuing deep structural reforms) to allow Poland to meet the strict economic criteria for entry into the European Single Currency. There is much speculation as to just when Poland might be allowed to join the Eurozone, although the best guess estimates put the entry date somewhere between 2009 and 2013 [citation needed]. For now, Poland is preparing to make the Euro its official currency (though it has not joined the ERM yet), and the Zloty will eventually be abolished from the Polish economy. Since joining the European Union, many young Polish people have left their country to work in other EU countries because of the high unemployment rate, which is the highest in the EU ( 15.7% in July 2006). Products Poland produces include clothes, electronics, cars (including luxury car Leopard), buses (Autosan, Jelcz SA, Solaris, Solbus), helicopters (PZL Swidnik), transport equipment, locomotives, planes (PZL Mielec), ships, military engineering (including tanks, SPAAG systems), medicines (Polpharma, Polfa, etc), food, chemical products etc. The seperate devellopment of East- and West GermanyPoland is not doing so bad if we see how money money is pumped into East-Germany by West-Germany as you say it. The West-Germans population was and is not so fond about the high solidarity taxes in the ninetees and the beginning of this century. Actually there is a sort of gap between West- and East Germany, I even heard some Western Germans making the remark, we should have let stayed the wall in tact. I hope that East- and West become integrated more and more, but the relation between Ossi's and Wessi's was not that good for quite a while. They have a differant mentality. The East-Germans have the heritage of the Weimar republic (social unrest and despair, polarisation), the 12 years of the Nazi dictatorship and after that 40 years of a East-German Prussian (Or Saxon) version of Communism (German stalinism). West-Germans from the other side had the Entnazificierungsprogram (the American occupiers actually teached the principles of freedom and democracy, so that it would replace the Nazi ideology which had "infected" the people), Marshall Plan (Bilions of dollers that were pumped into Western-European economy, because the Americans had learned from Versailles, if you impoverish people they will go after crazy totalitarian ideologies) and the Wirtschaftswunder (the combination of American funds of the Marshall Plan and the hard work of the West-Germans, who rebuilt their country, and created new companies and industries). West-Germany became a paraliamentairian democratic state, with a pluriform party system (SPD, CDU/CSU, FDP and later the Green party), good education, and due to the Social-capitalist system free Unions, a sophisticated healhcare and Social-security (Wellfeare state). I think the Poles should stay very concerned that their economy goes smoothly, because you see what happens if your economy goes down in Germany, France and other states. Social unrest, extremist parties, to much polarisation and a huge gap between rich and poor (GB and the USA). Ofcourse that already exists in Poland too, but like Social-democrats I would like to see more people benefit from the progress and economical growth. People should take their own initiative, be entrepreneurs and should not depend to much on the government. I saw In Krakow and Warsaw that Poles are educated and skilled people, that they have a pragmatic approach to life, just like West-Europeans. They want to take the matter of their lives into their own hands, and that is good. Part of that attitude in my view is calculating the state of the economy, see how the society functiones, study or look at the party programs and make the right decision when you vote. Many people took the right decision to vote for the Civic Platform, which has Polish conservative ideas in social-cultural matters, and liberal ideas in matters of politics. PiS, and it's two allies are also conservative in the sense of old fashionate leftwing state intervention in the economy, and more social security, and that's why they got the votes of workers, peasents, old people and young conservative Nationalists. A healthy GNP growth between 5% and 6 % is phantastic, and above the European average, I think. Poland can be cheerful, but I am afraid it is to early for the rest of Europe to be cheerful. First we West-Europeans should have some economical achievements, before we can party. It is time to work hard to maintain what we got. Pieter Source: Wikipedia encyclopedia English edition (with personal adds to it)
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Post by pieter on Aug 31, 2006 13:28:25 GMT -7
Here some interesting news from the IMF (International Monetary Fund) about Poland: Republic of Poland - Concluding Statement of the 2006 Article IV Consultation Mission May 22, 2006 1. A cyclical recovery and the benefits of EU membership are coming together to produce promising opportunities for Poland. For the first time in years, Poland is enjoying a combination of strong and balanced growth, low inflation, rising employment, and a small current account deficit. Substantial restructuring of businesses, alongside moderate wage growth, has strengthened Poland's global competitiveness. Large transfers from the EU as well as closer integration with EU trading partners are starting to bolster investment. These developments coincide with very favorable near-term prospects for global growth. 2. But it cannot be taken for granted that these auspicious conditions will produce a sustained improvement in living standards and economic strength. Fundamentally, strong growth will require lasting increases in investment to raise employment and productivity. These will be possible only if domestic savings and foreign investment inflows rise from current levels. Moreover, as neighboring countries too are enjoying favorable conditions, the competition for investment and export market shares will be intense. Without policies to create conditions supportive of growth and investment, Poland would risk not just sacrificing opportunities within its reach, but, especially if growth were to falter, becoming more vulnerable to adverse market sentiment. Our discussions have thus focused on how to ensure that policies provide the right conditions to realize the opportunities at hand. The Near-term Outlook3. Prospects for 2006-07 are strong. We have raised our projection for GDP growth to 4.8 percent in 2006 and 4.5 percent in 2007. The revisions are underpinned by improving investor sentiment, rising employment, private wage increases in line with productivity, and strengthening export markets. We expect that near-term growth will be well balanced between private consumption, private investment and export growth. We project the external current account deficit to rise to 1.7 percent of GDP in 2006 and just over 2 percent in 2007. These deficits should be easily financed by capital inflows. 4. Fiscal policy seems broadly on track to meet the 2006 deficit target. Although we are concerned that revenues for 2006 may be less buoyant than assumed in the budget, collections through April appear to be on target. It should be possible to offset any shortfall in the remainder of the year through expenditure restraint. From this perspective, restraining spending now would be wise so as to avoid the need for a spending squeeze later in the year, should a revenue shortfall materialize. Even though the general government deficit would fall to about 4½ percent of GDP, public debt would rise to 49 percent by year-end (with OFEs classified outside government). 5. Monetary policy is likely to continue to face a low inflation environment for the remainder of 2006. Low inflation reflects in part one-off factors, but also subdued core inflation, which excludes direct effects from food and energy. Inflation will rise with the recovery and the lapsing of the one-off factors. We nevertheless expect headline inflation to remain ¼-½ percentage point below the 2½ percent target by end-2007. While a cut in policy rates could be justified, we see a case for keeping rates on hold until clearer indications of the medium-term trade-off between growth and inflation emerge: this is because the economy is gaining speed, possibly strongly; current interest rates are probably neutral for economic growth; and the global interest rate environment is tightening. However, keeping interest rates on hold now means that any tightening further into the recovery should be delayed to ensure that inflation rises to the 2½ percent target, with symmetric risks around it. We support current monetary policy goals to center inflation at the 2½ percent target over the policy horizon with a view to firmly anchoring inflation expectations. Source: www.imf.org/external/np/ms/2006/052206.htm
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Post by pieter on Sept 4, 2006 3:20:59 GMT -7
Hello All, I've been following this forum for a week or so and found some posts interesting and inspiring. I thought that it would be proper to prsent myself here - as you seem to be a group that 'live a life together' and not just exchanging opinions or data. I was shocked by the depth and sensibility of some of the observations regarding the present day Poland of some of you, obviously living out of Poland and without the knowledge of the language. Some of the other I find rather superficial or biased, hope that's natural. I liked photographs of my city - Warszawa - Warsaw, I found here. On August 1st I was near the Uprising Monument with my wife and children, perhaps standing just next to the one that took the photos I hope this is ok for me to post here. Now my little comment for the good start in response to Pieter's about Wojciech Olejniczak: >Maybe this is an example of the new generation of politicians, who was not affiliated with Solidarnosc or the PZPR (Polish communist party). Ofcourse I have to be wary, because I don't know his family background. Especially in Poland, I find it very important that there is a independant, Polish left opposition which is not rooted in the PZPR tradition.< I think that the independent left is yet to be built in Poland (I say so being a centrist, perhaps slightly right-centrist). Olejniczak's party grew almost directly from the old-era PZPR party, incorporated its members, funds, buildings etc... Since you obviously know the Polish parties very well let me direcr your attention to an independent socialist (in the sense of good-old pre-war PPS) Ryszard Bugaj. Unfortunately he is a bit too slow too, just as someone has rightly depicted Geremek here. I still hope he'll someday come back to Sejm and we'll have a real left-side to outbalance the sooo heavy right side we now have Wojtek, I re-read your first post here in this Forum, and find that I did not exactly reacted on everything propperly. I enjoy your contributions and communications with fellow Forum-members very well. You gave some insightful, indepth and Polish cultural reactions and contributions. I have some questions stil, and hope that you are willing to answer them. You are a Varsovian, and so your wife and children are Varsovians too! Are you from an old Varsovian family (Pre-war connection?) or a new Varsovian who came from another city or rural area's. I ask this question, because in conversations with my mother, her friend in Warsaw and other Poles I found out that that there is a differance between old and new. I do not ask this out of cathegorisation, to say one is good and the other is bad, but out of curiousity. Old Varsovians (like Adam) are interesting to me, because of my (Old Varsovian) families past, new Varsovians are interesting to from a human interest, sociological, cultural and ecclectic (layers) interest. For instance Adams wife's comes from Krakow, and in my opinion newcommers from other cities bring their individual qualities, their family background and the qualities of their city and regions wit them. For instance someone who came from Krakow could have studied in Krakow, or had a artistic profession there, and so this person adds to the quality of Warszawa. Someone else who comes from let's say the Commercial, Trade and production city of Poznan can bring good economical organising, administrative or marketing- management skills with her or him. Someone who comes from a rural erea can bring some fresh country element in the city, devellop him/herself there and bring in a vote for PSL. I am always interested in the organic growth of cities I am interested in, wheather they are in the Netherlands, Belgium or Poland. The architecture, parks, neighbourhoods and infrastructure of cities say a lot about it past, present and future. That's the exiting thing of large cities. So, Wojtek, back to you, I am interested about your relation to your city, how you see Warsaw, the Old town and the New centre around the Palace of Culture. I am aware now that the the independent left has yet to be built in Poland, and I don't know if Non-communist Socialists and Social-democrats want to establish a todays version of the Pre-war PPS. The present PPS must be a very tiny party. Do the three other Left parties all cooperate with SLD, or do they have an independant postion? Is it possible that the The Demokraci.pl ( Unia Demokratyczna left) if it does not succeed in the next elections would form a new Left party with SDPL and Unia Pracy, or are the differance between the liberals of the Democratic party (many former UW party politicians and members) to much to the centre for the Leftwing socialists and Social-democrats? And from the other side are there any chances that the moderate left would consider to form a Centre-coalition with PSL and the Civic Platform ( PO)? On the website demokraci.pl/ I found this sentence; 03.09.2006 Porozumienie "Wspólna Polska" alternatywa dla koalicji"From the other side a OP-PiS-PSL centre-right coalition would be more logical in the present political climate and considdering the amount of seats for the parties in the Sjem and the Senat. Wojtek, I have tried to find some information about Bugaj, but could'nt found it, only in sidelines or lists of names. Was he in the independant Left opposition during the peoples republic, maybe he is more known in Poland than in the West? He is only described in the Polish section of the Wikipedia, and I could not find him in other encyclopedia (Britannica/Encarta) neither. In only found a few articles in which the economist and experianced politician Ryszard Bugaj is mentionned (and that is often dated): www.psupress.psu.edu/books/titles/0-271-01400-8.htmlwww.thenation.com/doc/19921207/singer/4www.warsawvoice.pl/archiwum.phtml/436Anyway I get an image of him as an inluential figure in Polish party, politics, the recent Polish political history and his status as economist. Pieter
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Post by pieter on Sept 4, 2006 4:23:54 GMT -7
The Polish Wikipedia article about Ryszard Bugaj; Ryszard BugajRyszard Bugaj (ur. 22 lutego 1944 w Gawlowie) - polski polityk o pogladach socjaldemokratycznych, doktor habilitowany ekonomii i pracownik PAN, byly przewodniczacy Unii Pracy, obecnie czlonek Rady Krajowej i przewodniczacy Rady Politycznej Unii Pracy. Ryszard Bugaj ukonczyl w 1971 roku Wydzial Ekonomii Politycznej Uniwersytetu Warszawskiego. W 1968 roku bral udzial w protestach studenckich przeciwko zdjeciu spektaklu "Dziady". W 1980 roku zaangazowa? sie w dzialalnosc w "Solidarnosci", w okresie stanu wojennego internowany. W 1989 roku zostal poslem OKP na sejm X kadencji. W 1991 roku czlonek-zalozyciel Stronnictwa Pracy, od 1992 roku w Unii Pracy, zostal jej przewodniczacym. Pod przywództwem Bugaja Unia Pracy uzyskala swój rekordowy wynik 7% glosów w wyborach 1993 i dysponowala w sejmie II kadencji 41 mandatami. Bugaj przeciwny byl wchodzeniu UP w alianse z postkomunistami, opowiadal sie za wspólpraca z PSL i Unia Wolnosci. W 1997 roku wraz ze swoja partia poparl nowa konstytucje. W wyborach 1997 nie udalo mu sie zdobyc mandatu, gdyz UP nie przekroczyla progu wyborczego. Podal sie do dymisji i w 1998 roku odszedl z partii, mocno polemizujac z politycznym kursem nowego kierownictwa (Malachowski, Pol). Bronil rzadu Jerzego Buzka przed zarzutami SLD i UP, choc krytycznie ustosunkowywal si? do dzialan Leszka Balcerowicza. W wyborach 2001 startowal z warszawskiej listy PSL, nie otrzymal jednak mandatu. Napisal wówczas slynny artykul w " Rzeczpospolitej" opowiadajac sie przeciwko kandydaturze Leszka Millera na szefa rzadu (sam Bugaj widzial w tej roli Janusza Wojciechowskiego z PSL). Ryszard Bugaj obecny jest czesto w telewizyjnych i prasowych debatach publicznych. W 2003 roku opowiadal sie zdecydowanie przeciwko czlonkostwu Polski w Unii Europejskiej. Zalozyciel partii politycznej Forum Polska Praca. Na poczatku 2006 roku powrócil do Unii Pracy, gdzie pelni funkcje Przewodniczacego Rady Politycznej Unii Pracy. Wysuwany jako kandydat Unii Pracy na prezydenta Warszawy w wyborach municypalnych jesienia 2006 roku. Link: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryszard_Bugaj
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bujno
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 648
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Post by bujno on Sept 5, 2006 9:03:54 GMT -7
Pieter, the 'Wspolna Polska' initiative was critisized yesterday by Rydzard Bugaj as a way to leading the voters astray. very sad that the former Unia Demokratyczna left wing has officialy gone into an alliance with those who have grown out of PZPR,which served as a tool in keeping Poland dependent.
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Post by pieter on Sept 5, 2006 9:38:41 GMT -7
Pieter, the 'Wspolna Polska' initiative was critisized yesterday by Rydzard Bugaj as a way to leading the voters astray. very sad that the former Unia Demokratyczna left wing has officialy gone into an alliance with those who have grown out of PZPR,which served as a tool in keeping Poland dependent. Wojtek, I can understand Budgaj's and your reactions towards this initiative, because the Moderate centre-left (Centrolewica) will cease to be independant in such a coalition with the forces of the left and the Anciene Régime (1948-1989). The Social-liberal voice (Partia Demokratyczna - demokraci.pl) will not benefit from this, because some of it's voters will switch to the PO. Pieter P.S.- Is the other democratic party Stronnictwo Demokratycznewell known in Poland or is it completely forgotton? www.sd.org.pl/main.php?kat=glowna
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Post by pieter on Sept 5, 2006 9:40:12 GMT -7
Stronnictwo Demokratyczne
Stronnictwo Demokratyczne (Democratic Party, SD) is a Polish centrist party established on April 15, 1939. Its historical leaders were Mieczyslaw Michalowicz and Mikolaj Kwasniewski. In 1940 SD split into two factions, one of which supported the Polish Government in Exile (in London), and the second co-operated with the Polish Workers' Party (Communists) and recognized the National Country Council as the actual parliament and the Provisional Government for National Unity as the actual government of Poland. The London faction ceased to exist in 1945. In People's Republic of Poland SD became a "satellite" facade party of the communist Polish United Workers' Party (PZPR). Even though, the party managed to sustain its non-marxist orientation. In 1989 both PZPR satellites - the Democratic Party and the United People's Party (Poland) (ZSL) broke their ties with the communists and formed a coalition government with Solidarity. Most of the members of SD joined other parties, including Freedom Union, but the party never ceased to exist.
Current leader: Andrzej Arendarski
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Post by pieter on Sept 5, 2006 9:46:57 GMT -7
Unia Wolnosci (UW)
The Freedom Union (Unia Wolnosci, UW) was a liberal party in Poland. It was founded on March 20, 1994 out of the merger of the Democratic Union (Unia Demokratyczna, UD) and the Liberal Democratic Congress (Kongres Liberalno-Demokratyczny, KLD). Both of these parties had roots in the Solidarity movement. It represented European liberal tradition, i.e. it advocated free market economy and individual liberty, rejected all extremism and fanaticism and favoured European integration (in the form of European Union membership), rapid privatisation of the enterprises still owned by the Polish state and decentralisation of the government. Timeline of Polish liberal parties after 1989 • Citizens Movement 'Democratic Action' /ROAD (1990-1991) • Liberal Democratic Congress /KLD (1990-1994) • Democratic Union /UD (1991-1994) • Freedom Union /UW (1994-2005) • Democratic Party /PD (2005- ) In 1991 general elections KLD got 7,5% of the votes and 37 seats in the Sejm (total 460 seats) and UD got 12,3% of the votes and 62 seats. In 1993 KLD got 4,0% of the votes and was left without seats, UD got 10,6% of the votes and 74 seats. In 1997 UW got 13,4% of the votes and 60 seats. In 2001 it got 3,1% of the votes and was left without seats. In January 2001 some members of the party's right wing decided to move to join the new Citizens' Platform (Platforma Obywatelska, PO), which got 12,7% of the votes 65 seats in the 2001 general elections whilst the Freedom Union failed to cross the 5% threshold required to gain entry to Parliament. The Freedom Union remained existent as a social-liberal party, but it lost some of its relevance in Polish politics. It consistently enjoys the support of approximately 3% of voters. Surprisingly, the party managed to cross the required 5% threshold in the 2004 European Parliament elections, receiving 7% of votes and 4 of 54 seats reserved for Poland in the European Parliament as part of the European Liberal Democrat and Reform Party, of which it is a member. The initiative by the Freedom Union leadership to found the Democratic Party (Partia Demokratyczna - demokraci.pl) attracted a lot of attention. It was cofounded by Wladyslaw Frasyniuk and economy minister Jerzy Hausner, joined by prime minister Marek Belka. Former Freedom Union member Tadeusz Mazowiecki also joined the inititiative. Legally the Democratic Party, founded May 9, 2005, is the successor of the Freedom Union.
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