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Post by pieter on Sept 10, 2007 23:54:46 GMT -7
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Sept 11, 2007 6:46:28 GMT -7
What`s your opinion on them? |
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Post by pieter on Sept 11, 2007 14:23:48 GMT -7
Pawian,
I have contact with Wojtek, Bunjo via e-mail and I read your postings and the posting of other Polish Poles (Poles living in Poland) with great interest and they are a great source of information and a lesson to me. I read articles about Poland of foreign correspondents from Dutch quality newspapers and Public television, and I see, read and hear the opinion of their German, Belgian and British colleages, because I watch the German, Belgian and British TV too. I know to less Poles in my country, to be able to have an objective
or realistic view of what is happening inside Poland. So again I learn from you, Zooba, Wojtek and in the past Adam. My opinion from the knowledge I know is that I am mildly positive about PD and SDPL (because these Social-democrats left the SLD), and that I have less with the Proletarian or opportunistic SLD and UP is to small and to left for me. Probably the SDPL is to left for me too. In the Dutch perspective I am an independent, Centre-left oriented person, who is often inbetween centre-left and centre-right. The Dutch reality is differant than Poland, with it's Calvinist character, the culture of balance
between Catholics and Protestants in the past, the secularisation today and the influence of Islam and other religions today too. In Poland the Clergy and the Church have to much power and influence to my belief, and therefor in Poland I would support a Progressive, pragmatic, Social-liberal movement who stands for seperation of church and state, freedom of religion, free speech, freedom of organisation and demonstration
(Also for Lesbians and Gays), tolerance, culture, good education and Patriotism too!
I believe Lewica i Democraci is such a movement, because there are former Solidarnosc dissidents among them, left-intellectuals of the Post-communist generation, young progressive Poles (students, young working Poles, Left Yuppies, artists), progressive or liberal Catholics, Social-democrats, Socialists (old PPS),
Environmentalists and probably some former reform communists.
I don't like the SLD that much, because I fear the influence of the old PZPR nomenklatura or aparatshiks, Communist Nouveau riche (the Polish oligarchs), Corrupt ancien regime public servants (bread communists), opportunists and SB (UB) people. The Left version of the same terrible rightwing Populists on the other side, the McCarthy's of PiS and LiS. I simply dislike extremists from all sides, being a moderate.
That's why I like the Calitalist PO probably, I like the Megalomanian growth of Warsaw and the rebuilding and renovation and so progression of Poland! In reality I am less conservative-liberal as PO, being somewhere inbetween LEWICA i DEMOKRACI and PO.
Pieter
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Post by pieter on Sept 13, 2007 0:08:37 GMT -7
Pawian, That's why I like the Calitalist PO probably, I like the Megalomanian growth of Warsaw and the rebuilding and renovation and so progression of Poland! In reality I am less conservative-liberal as PO, being somewhere inbetween LEWICA i DEMOKRACI and PO. Pieter To react on myself, I am a tiny little bit more PO than LEWICA i DEMOKRACI! Why, whel because of the dominant influence of SLD in LEWICA i DEMOKRACI and therefor the influence of Post-Communists or former communists in that movement. In Germany you had entnazificierung after the second world war, in Poland there was not such thing as de-communistization. I am against the American stile McCarthy Communist hunt or German stile Berufsverboten (Profession prohibitions), but I think some people should have been prosecuted. The big shots. For instance Jaruselski for his decades long involvement in bloody violence against Polish and Czech (1968, Prague) people. Jaruselski: In the first post-war years, he was among the military repressing anti-Communist guerrilla insurgents, e.g. in the Swietokrzyskie region. He quickly rose in the military and Party, becoming a member of the Central Committee in 1964. In 1968, he was named the Minister of Defense.
In the same year, he was heavily involved in the "cleansing" of the Polish army as part of Mieczyslaw Moczar's anti-semitic campaign. In fact, he had close links to Moczar. (He was best man at Moczar's second marriage, which does not appear in Jaruzelski's autobiographical works.)
In 1968, during the Prague Spring, he led the Polish military participation in the invasion of Czechoslovakia. Then in 1970, he was involved in the plot against Wladyslaw Gomulka, which led to the appointment of Edward Gierek as Communist Party General Secretary. He took part in organizing the suppression of striking workers, which led to massacres in the coastal cities of Gda?sk, Gdynia, Elblag and Szczecin.
Jaruzelski became the party's General Secretary and prime minister in 1981, when Lech Walesa's Solidarity movement was starting to gain popularity, both within Poland and abroad. On 13th December 1981 Jaruzelski imposed martial law, actually called in Polish stan wojenny literally translated as 'state of war'. This led many to say that General Jaruzelski had declared war on the nation.
According to his explanation, this action was intended to prevent a Soviet invasion. Lawyers hold that the circumstances of the martial law were even in violation of the Communist constitution. Most former opposition members argue that it was merely an action by the Polish Communist regime to retain power and strangle the newly born and developing civil society. Moreover, historical evidence released under President Yeltsin has been brought to light indicating that the Soviet Union did not plan to invade Poland; in fact, the Soviets strictly rejected Jaruzelski's request for military help in 1981, leaving the Solidarity "problem" to be sorted out by the Polish government. This question, as well as many other facts about Poland 1945-1989, are presently under the investigation of independent historians at the Institute of National Remembrance (Instytut Pamieci Narodowej, IPN), whose publications reveal facts from Communist archives.
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Post by pieter on Sept 13, 2007 0:57:23 GMT -7
After Jaruzelski's retirement
On March 31, 2006 the Polish IPN (Institute of National Remembrance) charged him with committing communist crimes, mainly the creation of a criminal military organisation with the aim of conducting crimes (mostly concerned with the illegal imprisonment of people). The second charge involves the incitement of state ministers to make acts beyond their competence.
The original documentation published recently also revealed that Jaruzelski had been a secret communist agent (a rezident of the GRU) spying for the Soviet Union in the Polish military since 1946. The Polish Ministry of Defence currently is engaged in a process that would allow it to deny to Jaruzelski any military pension he currently receives.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Sept 19, 2007 14:10:16 GMT -7
Pawian, I have contact with Wojtek, Bunjo via e-mail and I read your postings and the posting of other Polish Poles (Poles living in Poland) with great interest and they are a great source of information and a lesson to me. I read articles about Poland of foreign correspondents from Dutch quality newspapers and Public television, and I see, read and hear the opinion of their German, Belgian and British colleages, Oops, it seems like an addiction to me.. Are you in love with Poland or what?? hahahahaha I prefer to be more right if you don`t mind... but only a little! I support the culture of balance with all my might... I can sign under it too. Exactly! Agreed! Extremists stink! Moderation rulez! I prefer to be less social and more liberal in economic contexts. For example, all this howling by leftist activists about high unemployment in Poland is humbug. There is no unemployment, it is just so that some people prefer being on dole all their life to taking up work. They cheat on the state, those lazy bones. Hey, it seems I have a twin brother with similar views somewhere there in Europe!!!! |
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Post by pieter on Sept 20, 2007 14:52:25 GMT -7
To be in love with Poland should require more mutual understanding and contact,
since I have no real physical connection I can't say I am in love with the country,
but what I can say is that I am fond of the country, people and language.
Why? Whel, because I have 50 % of it in my vains and I can't get rid of it, haha,
secondly, because I have dear memories of Poznan and Warszawa in my childhood and
teen years, and later (in 2004) Krakow. I have to say that I prefered the last city,
because it is the most beautiful and cultural one.
I could say that I am a little bit in love with central-Europe, because I like to go to
Warsaw, Prague, Berlin, Budapest and Vienna. I like the former Habsburg atmosphere
if these cities and the history, the smell and taste of history there.
Actually I liked to be wondering around 4 'o clock in the morning in the peryphery in Prague or walking back to my hotel from the centre of Krakow to a suburb across the
river on the other side of the bridge after having spend a good night out in a New wave stile Polish student pub in the city.
Hearing Polish reminds me of my mother talking with my grandparents when I was a child, or the discussions between other Polish family members and the people on the streets, pubs, restaurants and parks of the cities I mentioned.
You have every right to be, I don't mind that at all!
That's allright!
I can even follow you here, because the Leftist activist did it here too, they are the same in Poland and the Netherlands. Many of my friends are radical left or just left, and therefor I sometimes feel a litle bit rightwing, because I am in the far right edge of left,
not belonging to any movement, having left Labour in 1998.
As I said before I am somwhere in the moderate exact middle, without being political correct, multi-culturalist on one side and not very nationalist or Pro-Laissez faire on the other side. Poland needs a sort of fast capitalism or commercialism (commercial materialist culture of competition and economical progression) to get to the same level as Western-Europe. In my country however we have had consumerism and the domination of the Capitalist Neo-liberal culture too long. We have to get a ballance again and not sell our country entirely to Anglo-American, Russian, Chinese, French and Indian Multi-nationals and Brussels. Poland has a strong national identity, we are getting it back slowly after decades of Globalisation and Americanisation. (keep in mind that I am not anti-American, but I think we should keep our own European culture)
You probably have!
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Sept 22, 2007 14:25:52 GMT -7
I could say that I am a little bit in love with central-Europe, because I like to go to Warsaw, Prague, Berlin, Budapest and Vienna. I like the former Habsburg atmosphere if these cities and the history, the smell and taste of history there. Once the Austrian Empire was considered rotten and crumbling. Today, we think it had certain charm. What does this charm depend on?  Interesting issue.... Isn`t it the atmosphere of laziness and relaxation, when you don`t have to hurry to arrange your vital problems but you can sit in a cosy wicker chair in a pub and sip this cold beer, looking at life going on around you???..... What do you think??? Oh, yes, childhood memories!! They are imprinted in our minds, we can`t get rid of them, in adult lives we try to relive those moments again, hoping for what? Making ourselves younger for a while? What did I have in mind when I went to the seaside with my children to the places I had visited as a child? God knows.... |
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Post by bescheid on Sept 23, 2007 6:06:29 GMT -7
{{I could say that I am a little bit in love with central-Europe, because I like to go to
Warsaw, Prague, Berlin, Budapest and Vienna. I like the former Hapsburg atmosphere
if these cities and the history, the smell and taste of history there.
Actually I liked to be wondering around 4 'o clock in the morning in the peryphery in Prague or walking back to my hotel from the centre of Krakow to a suburb across the
river on the other side of the bridge after having spend a good night out in a New wave stile Polish student pub in the city.}}
Pieter
As I have no experience of Krakow or Prague. For this, I have little to say of.
But, of Vienna, it is very understandable of your enjoyment of this city. For it is the Artist that is of your self with your refinement in senses. For in this sense, it pays little to rush.
As you have mentioned, Vienna is a former location of the Hapsburg, for the very meaning of the name of this country is in self a reminder {Österreich}{Eastern Empire}, it breaths culture and history from the days of Romans to the present as it is indeed a mecca for visitors with the buildings/museums/Ringstrassen buildings.
Even with the high immigrant population, it so seems a magnate for artist. In summer, it would so seem the park is full with painter artist and pad sketcher.
Austria to my self though, is just overly similar to Switzerland. I simply do not feel comfortable. It is both very beautiful and for the most part, the people are pleasant. Some of the engineering of the road way design must have been created with the motorcycle as a priority. Of course if summer traffic is high, it becomes a grind up some of the passes and tunnels. It is the tunnel traffic that is choking with the exhaust fumes. But, the pleasure is upon exiting the various tunnel regions, to drop down the gear change, and boom around before the caravan folks accelerate to speed.
Charles
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Post by pieter on Sept 23, 2007 10:43:22 GMT -7
First of all Pawian, I am not a supporter or fond of the Occupation of Poland by Austria,
Prussia and Russia before the first world war. I don't idalize that, I say I was fond of a cultural aspect of the years of the Habsburg empire, the architecture, the arts, the literature, and the central European aspect of that, because I am fond of Central-Europe.
Actually I am not really fond of Austria, because in contrast with Germany Austria never had the Entnazificierungs process, and so under the beautiful surface of it's cities, towns, villages and Alp landscapes there is a brown underlayer.
But Austria in the Middle of the 20th century and today is differant than the Austria of the Austrian-Hungarian Double monarchy, also called the (Austrian) Habsburg empire
(it's confusing for many people, because you had also the Spanish branch of the Habsburg empire that occupied Holland and Flanders -Belgium- before the Dutch Golden age). Cracow ofcourse is an old Polish city with the Polish Gothic churches, Italian renaissance, Claccisist and Baroc influences and the 20th century modernism of both the
Communist era and the Post-1989 time. I love to see the progression in the infrastructure, economy, Polish society and so the Polish education, the fine arts, the Media and etc. I am not stuck in a Romantic vision of the past, I just like the visual organic development of a city and country, by the many stiles of centuries and decades.
I don't know the atmosphere of laziness and relaxation, because I always hurry through Polish cities to know the differant parts of the city, visit the quality art galleries and Museums (Bunkier in Cracow and the Czartoryski-museum and the National Museum there), the beautiful "jewish" part of the city Kazimierz, to go across the river to non-tourist parts of the city with working class neighbourhoods, graffiti (probably of a Cracow football club or youth gangs), transport traffic, drunken folks smashing beerbottles against the wall of a building, visiting historical sites as a decent cultural tourist, and in the same time struggle with my fellow travellers where to go to, splitting with them and meeting them again, feeling irritated that I do not speak Polish at all and that even the few words I speak are not always understood. Observing the Polish public in Cracow how they behave themselves, hoping not to look as a stranger or a stupid British drunken tourist who rampage the city. And yes, I enjoyed a few Polish beers in Pubs or terraces, a Polish meal in a Polish restaurant and dancing in POlish disco's or dancings, because I liked dancing and the enjoyment of the Polish visitors and my fellow travellers too. They were a nice team of Dutch, German and Polish (A Dutch Pole and a German Polish girl) people who made a cultural trip to Cracow, visited their Art academy colleages in the Large and old Crakow art academy. It was a week of a lot of walking, a lot of Polish trams, busses and an occasional taxi. Observing the old and new,
the student buildings, the bussy traffic, the new mega shopping malls in the suburbs, the
new innovative business area with carparks and flashy, shining glass buildings just like in Amsterdam South, Frankrfurt or La Defense in Paris. And yes I liked to see that!
( I read about the research centers in which the Polish companies and universaty
of Crakow cooperate)
I never hope to relive my childhood or teenage years, because I live now and this is the
best time of my life. I did not have a good childhood so I do not idealize that to much,
but I do not look back in anger or frustration! The Polish experiances where great, because they were surreal for me! A total differant world, with differant people, who spoke a differant language and behaved differantly. In Poland I saw a big city with bussy traffic for the first time! Pawian I live today, and try to make the best of the present,
learnt my lessons in the past and try to use them for the future today!
Exactly, God knows, but it is good to show your children the good places of your past,
because it had proven to be so. So, why don't go back there?
On the other side it is always good to try new things!
Pieter
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Post by pieter on Sept 23, 2007 11:26:47 GMT -7
{{I could say that I am a little bit in love with central-Europe, because I like to go to Warsaw, Prague, Berlin, Budapest and Vienna. I like the former Hapsburg atmosphere if these cities and the history, the smell and taste of history there. Actually I liked to be wondering around 4 'o clock in the morning in the peryphery in Prague or walking back to my hotel from the centre of Krakow to a suburb across the river on the other side of the bridge after having spend a good night out in a New wave stile Polish student pub in the city.}} Pieter As I have no experience of Krakow or Prague. For this, I have little to say of. But, of Vienna, it is very understandable of your enjoyment of this city. For it is the Artist that is of your self with your refinement in senses. For in this sense, it pays little to rush. As you have mentioned, Vienna is a former location of the Hapsburg, for the very meaning of the name of this country is in self a reminder {Österreich}{Eastern Empire}, it breaths culture and history from the days of Romans to the present as it is indeed a mecca for visitors with the buildings/museums/Ringstrassen buildings. Even with the high immigrant population, it so seems a magnate for artist. In summer, it would so seem the park is full with painter artist and pad sketcher. Austria to my self though, is just overly similar to Switzerland. I simply do not feel comfortable. It is both very beautiful and for the most part, the people are pleasant. Some of the engineering of the road way design must have been created with the motorcycle as a priority. Of course if summer traffic is high, it becomes a grind up some of the passes and tunnels. It is the tunnel traffic that is choking with the exhaust fumes. But, the pleasure is upon exiting the various tunnel regions, to drop down the gear change, and boom around before the caravan folks accelerate to speed. Charles Charles, I think that I prefer the North and the Middle of Germany above Austria and Switzerland, like you I don't like the cold and difficult Szweitzerdeutscher and the Austrians. While resting in Vienna in an old park where there was an art exhebition my sister, her husbant and I where kicked by a bunch of crazy Austrian police officers. They kept the an old tradition alive. Friday and Saturday I was in Kassel, Hessen, with a girlfriend of mine, where we went to see the 12th Documenta. Kassel is a real Kultur and Kunst stadt (culture and art city), with a beautiful Palace, Rathaus (city hall), parks and an environment of mountains with woods. The city is built on hills. For me and my friend Kassel was a Walhalla of art, a sort of Mecca of the arts in Northern-Europe, with nice cultural people from all European countries and other parts of the world. We were critical and observed the ongoing crisis in Modern art. My friend is an art historian and she took a lot of critics with her from a Dutch quality newspaper and an art magazine. We read the esays and articles for eachother out loud, under the enjoyment of Kasseler beer, and made a lot of work of the 12th Documenta. The most beautiful experiance was saturday afternoon when we visited the Schloss Wilhelmshöhe, and saw a lot of old art, Rembrandt, Jan Steen, Frans Hals, Vermeer, Paulus Potter, Rubens and etc. There must be billions woth of art there. When on the street we crossed the street when there were no cars near, but ignored the red sign, than an irrated old German guy said cynically: Für Freie Menschen gibt es kein regeln! In the Netherlands nobody waits when there are no cars around, but the light is stil red. We mentioned that Germany is very strict in rules and it should be done like we have regulated it! The Netherlands are a little bit more loose. From the other side there are some Kassel people who are very friendly and helpful on the street! It was good to be able to leave my country for two days, because I did not had the chance to go abroad this summer! I went to Kassel in 1992 and 2002. Pieter Links: www.documenta12.de/de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentade.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schloss_Wilhelmshöhe |
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Interesting issue.... Isn`t it the atmosphere of laziness and relaxation, when you don`t have to hurry to arrange your vital problems but you can sit in a cosy wicker chair in a pub and sip this cold beer, looking at life going on around you???.....
