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Post by Jaga on May 11, 2008 23:39:20 GMT -7
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Post by kaima on May 12, 2008 1:28:04 GMT -7
Here is one I ran across earlier today. Good, bad .... the sad thing is it reflects the growing image of America. Our symbol used to be the Stature of Liberty ...  |
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tufta
Freshman Pole
Posts: 45
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Post by tufta on May 12, 2008 1:38:21 GMT -7
If the presented image of America is actually spreading is it among the Americans or their enemies? Maybe just a propaganda thing? The mentioned PSYOPS? :-) I think the most popular America icon is still  |
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Post by kaima on May 12, 2008 15:02:56 GMT -7
The old Coke Bottle? It looks a bit Arabic on the label. For a few years I kept a Slovak Coke bottle. Some of us in America grew up in a generation that well remembered the barbaric torture and brainwashing the North Koreans subjected the US soldiers to during the Korean war. It used to be a great scandal and our propaganda presented them as the Great Barbarians and, as usual, we Americans wore the White hats (in cowboy films the Hero traditionally wore a white hat, true or not, it is a saying here). So we were the good guys against the Barbarians. Conservative and Liberal were all offended by this mistreatment. We were the good guys who played and fought fairly and won despite cheating and torturing by the bad opponents. Now Bush has led us down the path to barbarity and it is widely accepted in the USA as proper and normal. Our old standards are thrown out. Under his mis-leadership we have become the torturers. Many of us in the US feel this has cost us the high moral leadership position we have always carried in the world. Thus it is not just the enemies of the US who display such pictures but disillusioned people around the world. There are citizens in the US who hope to someday reclaim the high morality of the past. Part of that path demands we recognize the mistakes made and being made in this war and trying to bring the country back to normalcy. So music albums and other media have picked up on this theme. Do you feel it should be swept under the carpet and ignored, or that it would be propagated only by enemies of the US? another one:  |
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Post by uncltim on May 12, 2008 20:51:01 GMT -7
Keep perspective.
No conflict-No story-No sale-No art-No cause-No change-No one else to blame.
The Abu Gharaib prison abuse was offensive because it served no purpose. I take no exception to progressive interrogation techniques If purposeful. It takes a mercifully short time to get information.
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tufta
Freshman Pole
Posts: 45
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Post by tufta on May 13, 2008 1:46:22 GMT -7
I think there's a long range of possible reactions between sweeping uncomfortable facts under the carpet and being ashamed of your country. I say that as a non-American, a witness so to say. Sweeping under the carpet the misdeeds is unproductive and leads to gradual defeat. There were other superpowers in history which swept some facts under the carpet, slowly deteriorated and finally fell apart. In the past century it was Russia and Germany. Noy sure about the reasons of British Empire deterioration. Just three centuries earlier my country ceased to exist as a superpower. The reasons were basically always the same - lack of reaction to uncomfortable facts. So, were I an American I would find your stance useful if it is not only purely politically backed ("Ashamed of Bush). Even if I personally think it is exaggerated. I mean the image of America is still quite positive even if the mentioned PSYOPS have in some allied European countries provoked a disease called anti-Americanism. The biggest difference in image of America I now see between you -- a middle aged non-immigrant American and me - a late fortish Pole who lived through communism and state rebuilding in Poland, is as follows. You have lived through a phase when you thought American moral standards entitle US to moral leadership position. I have never in my life felt USA is entitled to moral leadrship. But I did and do think US 'does more good', even when fights for oil or for Middle East status quo only. But as you thought about your homeland I thought about my own that Poland is entitled to a special moral position among the nations. That Poland was always in the white hat as you say. With passing time, growing age and accumulated information I have learned it is not quite so. But I still think both Poland and US have a limited and constrained right to feel morally positive about their history, relative to known history of the mankind. Not your or mine merit it is, rather a coincidence.
So maybe this feeling ' we're always in White hats;' we both had is not only related to propaganda's success, but also to our young age when we felt so?
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Post by uncltim on May 13, 2008 15:22:42 GMT -7
I've always found the idea that someone polls others in the world about their opinion of America pretty amusing. What practical purpose does it really serve? Its likely that someone found a way to "guide" public opinion here.
I find the Idea of American "moral" leadership even more amusing!!
On an individual level you will find most Americans very moral people indeed, On a political and corporate leader level, America has produced some of the most immoral people imaginable.
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Post by kaima on May 13, 2008 16:04:22 GMT -7
So, were I an American I would find your stance useful if it is not only purely politically backed ("Ashamed of Bush). Even if I personally think it is exaggerated. I mean the image of America is still quite positive even if the mentioned PSYOPS have in some allied European countries provoked a disease called anti-Americanism. Well, if you can accept that my stance is founded on principle and not politics, then we have no conflict. I recently received reminders from both Democratic and Republican parties that I have to renew my party registration, and thanking me for my generous past support. My support has not been generous, though I have donated to both parties on occasion, and I have never had membership in any political party. The latest stupidity I saw was a criticism of McCain for "lack of loyalty to the Party". We owe our loyalty to the country, Parties be damned! That reminds me too much of loyalty to the Communist party of the past. The biggest difference in image of America I now see between you -- a middle aged non-immigrant American and me - a late fortish Pole who lived through communism and state rebuilding in Poland, is as follows. You have lived through a phase when you thought American moral standards entitle US to moral leadership position. I have never in my life felt USA is entitled to moral leadrship. But I did and do think US 'does more good', even when fights for oil or for Middle East status quo only. I was living in Europe when the Kosovo event happened. I didn't want the US to get involved since I believe in Yugoslavia / Balkans and in the Middle East there is no good action we can take to solve the local problems. However, it seemed Europe WAS waiting for the US to take the lead in Kosovo, and then happily followed. This perhaps demonstrates the moral leadership I mentioned. Then again, the Europeans were smart enough to stand back when Bush insisted on going into Iraq in 2002. I felt they were playing Loyal Friend at the time, saying "Please do not go. You are making a mistake." The moral leadership was also handy in the 1980's when Reagan sent US troops into Lebanon to help broker peace. Great. Then he started using the troops to favor one side and some 250 were blown up by the other side. We tucked tail and came home. We lost moral leadership then, when if we had maintained the 'honest broker' stance, we would have gained status and perhaps stabilized the area a bit. So maybe this feeling ' we're always in White hats;' we both had is not only related to propaganda's success, but also to our young age when we felt so? Yes, I must very much agree! Kai |
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Post by kaima on May 13, 2008 16:11:40 GMT -7
I've always found the idea that someone polls others in the world about their opinion of America pretty amusing. What practical purpose does it really serve? Its likely that someone found a way to "guide" public opinion here. I find the Idea of American "moral" leadership even more amusing!! On an individual level you will find most Americans very moral people indeed, On a political and corporate leader level, America has produced some of the most immoral people imaginable. Considering the opinion of others can be handy at times, but the final decision of action lies with the individual. Ifeel after 9 11 in 2001 we had 99% of the world behind us against terrorism. Even the IRA saw the writing on the wall and called it quits rather than be liquidated. If Bush had played our cards right we could have been extremely effective in Afghanistan and the entire world, and really done a good clean up. As it is .... That is an example of both world opinion being important to the US and the potential power of moral leadership. Remember how Bush bragged he was leading and the Europeans only needed to follow? Happily they could see the folly of the path he chose. Kai |
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Post by uncltim on May 13, 2008 17:35:48 GMT -7
I remember the barracks in Lebanon. still makes me angry,
Kai, If the rest of the world dislikes us so much, lets go home! Lets take our military to the state armory, and keep all of our crops here, and send the foreign students home.
We don't owe these people a thing!
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Post by jimpres on May 13, 2008 18:06:29 GMT -7
I agree if they don't want us there let's leave. The end result will be the same.
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Post by kaima on May 13, 2008 20:11:14 GMT -7
Lets take our military to the state armory, and keep all of our crops here, and send the foreign students home. We don't owe these people a thing! Tim, I pretty well agree. It is another old conservative value the 'neo-cons' have abandoned. We should start with something similar to zero-based budgeting. No aid, no foreign involvement, and then justify each individual act we engage in overseas. I have seen where trying to justify every program every year brought the burro-ocracy to spending 1/3 of their time justifying the existence of their programs, so I will say let's review each program every 10 years. And screw the politicians (of both parties) and the cost, let's start realistic budgeting and BALANCED budgeting NOW. Kai |
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tufta
Freshman Pole
Posts: 45
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Post by tufta on May 15, 2008 0:18:56 GMT -7
So, were I an American I would find your stance useful if it is not only purely politically backed ("Ashamed of Bush). Even if I personally think it is exaggerated. I mean the image of America is still quite positive even if the mentioned PSYOPS have in some allied European countries provoked a disease called anti-Americanism. Well, if you can accept that my stance is founded on principle and not politics, then we have no conflict. I recently received reminders from both Democratic and Republican parties that I have to renew my party registration, and thanking me for my generous past support. My support has not been generous, though I have donated to both parties on occasion, and I have never had membership in any political party. The latest stupidity I saw was a criticism of McCain for "lack of loyalty to the Party". We owe our loyalty to the country, Parties be damned! That reminds me too much of loyalty to the Communist party of the past. I was living in Europe when the Kosovo event happened. I didn't want the US to get involved since I believe in Yugoslavia / Balkans and in the Middle East there is no good action we can take to solve the local problems. However, it seemed Europe WAS waiting for the US to take the lead in Kosovo, and then happily followed. This perhaps demonstrates the moral leadership I mentioned. Then again, the Europeans were smart enough to stand back when Bush insisted on going into Iraq in 2002. I felt they were playing Loyal Friend at the time, saying "Please do not go. You are making a mistake." The moral leadership was also handy in the 1980's when Reagan sent US troops into Lebanon to help broker peace. Great. Then he started using the troops to favor one side and some 250 were blown up by the other side. We tucked tail and came home. We lost moral leadership then, when if we had maintained the 'honest broker' stance, we would have gained status and perhaps stabilized the area a bit. So maybe this feeling ' we're always in White hats;' we both had is not only related to propaganda's success, but also to our young age when we felt so? Yes, I must very much agree! Kai Thanks for this explanations. If you understand moral leadership this way - we agree. |
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