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Post by tuftabis on May 27, 2008 10:11:48 GMT -7
27.05.2008
Eurodeputies opposing the construction of the northern gas pipeline on the Baltic Sea bed, linking Russia with Germany, have won a battle in the Petitions Committee of the European Parliament.
They adopted a report prepared by Marcin Libicki, a Polish eurodeputy from the Law and Justice party, which highlights the environmental risks connected with this investment. The document will be discussed at a plenary session of the European Parliament in July.
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Post by Atlantis5 on May 28, 2008 10:41:46 GMT -7
27.05.2008 Eurodeputies opposing the construction of the northern gas pipeline on the Baltic Sea bed, linking Russia with Germany, have won a battle in the Petitions Committee of the European Parliament. They adopted a report prepared by Marcin Libicki, a Polish eurodeputy from the Law and Justice party, which highlights the environmental risks connected with this investment. The document will be discussed at a plenary session of the European Parliament in July. Interesting with information withheld as not disclosed. For one, Russia is not part of the EU, and the EU has no authority over Russian affairs. There for, the petitions battle is only symbolic with out meaning. The other objection that has been floored for the argument of Polish interest as being environmental concerns, has been previously addressed by Nord Stream with a conclusion of {The Text Approved by The Committee was Misleading and Prejudiced}. The primary complaint that is currant and present: Is Poland will not have the opportunity to access toll fees for any pipe transport built over and on Polish land territory. With this, the possibility of threatening shut off for any down stream flow. For this reason, the primary transport medium was as of the present, a pipe transport system under-sea with out interference by political and monetary levee system to add to cost of fuel. Poland had ample opportunity whilst in the planning stage of contribution with those partners with: Germany/Finland/Dänemark/ The Netherlands/USA and UK. But chose to stay silent. More then ample in the engineering plans are for Polish hook up, but, Poland will be required to construct the terminal for access. This also was un-mentioned. Charles |
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Post by tuftabis on May 28, 2008 12:21:15 GMT -7
27.05.2008 Eurodeputies opposing the construction of the northern gas pipeline on the Baltic Sea bed, linking Russia with Germany, have won a battle in the Petitions Committee of the European Parliament. They adopted a report prepared by Marcin Libicki, a Polish eurodeputy from the Law and Justice party, which highlights the environmental risks connected with this investment. The document will be discussed at a plenary session of the European Parliament in July. Interesting with information withheld as not disclosed. For one, Russia is not part of the EU, and the EU has no authority over Russian affairs. There for, the petitions battle is only symbolic with out meaning. The other objection that has been floored for the argument of Polish interest as being environmental concerns, has been previously addressed by Nord Stream with a conclusion of {The Text Approved by The Committee was Misleading and Prejudiced}. The primary complaint that is currant and present: Is Poland will not have the opportunity to access toll fees for any pipe transport built over and on Polish land territory. With this, the possibility of threatening shut off for any down stream flow. For this reason, the primary transport medium was as of the present, a pipe transport system under-sea with out interference by political and monetary levee system to add to cost of fuel. Poland had ample opportunity whilst in the planning stage of contribution with those partners with: Germany/Finland/Dänemark/ The Netherlands/USA and UK. But chose to stay silent. More then ample in the engineering plans are for Polish hook up, but, Poland will be required to construct the terminal for access. This also was un-mentioned. Charles Charles, as soon as I get out of a shock elicited by reading your post which doesn't include Polischian, Polisch , Polishen words I will reply and demonstrate where you are wrong. |
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Post by Atlantis5 on May 28, 2008 14:46:18 GMT -7
Interesting with information withheld as not disclosed. For one, Russia is not part of the EU, and the EU has no authority over Russian affairs. There for, the petitions battle is only symbolic with out meaning. The other objection that has been floored for the argument of Polish interest as being environmental concerns, has been previously addressed by Nord Stream with a conclusion of {The Text Approved by The Committee was Misleading and Prejudiced}. The primary complaint that is currant and present: Is Poland will not have the opportunity to access toll fees for any pipe transport built over and on Polish land territory. With this, the possibility of threatening shut off for any down stream flow. For this reason, the primary transport medium was as of the present, a pipe transport system under-sea with out interference by political and monetary levee system to add to cost of fuel. Poland had ample opportunity whilst in the planning stage of contribution with those partners with: Germany/Finland/Dänemark/ The Netherlands/USA and UK. But chose to stay silent. More then ample in the engineering plans are for Polish hook up, but, Poland will be required to construct the terminal for access. This also was un-mentioned. Charles Charles, as soon as I get out of a shock elicited by reading your post which doesn't include Polischian, Polisch , Polishen words I will reply and demonstrate where you are wrong. Tufta This was not meant for to shock you...my good heavens no.. It was only of information of public knowledge, nothing more, nothing less. Very much of the situation now of fall out, is from your nations previous government. For that was simple a joke, now with your new Government, at least now, Poland is not the laughing stock within the West European family of governments. Tufta I have no drum side to beat, nor to bring you displeasure or for that matter, to down play your country, for you are proud of your home land and rightly as so, for your home land made possible your being, and a very fine son she has produced. As you have proposed now, if I am wrong, I would be very pleased to be proved as so. This subject has been with a great many downs and ups for the previous 2 years and will be for some time to be. The most primary object of this all is this: To bring to our homes and business, a vital commodity of heat and energy, for this is the object of the work, not to please or vilifie some one or country, but all for the common good. I have a companion more comprehensive professional out line, but not today, for I wish not to be piggy at the expense of others. Charles |
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Post by hollister on May 28, 2008 19:50:24 GMT -7
Tufta,
Educate me! Is this a Gazprom project? And what does this do to poor Ukraine and access to oil? Have there been provisions made for the eventuality of running into old WWII relics on the sea bed? If there is a spill who pays for the clean up? What is Tusk's stance on this this? I wonder as Libicki is PiS - or is he speaking for Poland here and not the party?
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Post by tuftabis on May 29, 2008 1:56:37 GMT -7
Tufta, Educate me! Is this a Gazprom project? And what does this do to poor Ukraine and access to oil? Have there been provisions made for the eventuality of running into old WWII relics on the sea bed? If there is a spill who pays for the clean up? What is Tusk's stance on this this? I wonder as Libicki is PiS - or is he speaking for Poland here and not the party? Hollister, it is my pleasure. Yes, this is a Gazprom project and this pipeline is a gas pipeline for Russian gas, While the 'Ukrainian pipeline' in the other thread is for oil from Caucasus (retro-Caucasus to be precise) and from behind the Caspian Sea. Tusk's stance in this specific problem is the same as PiS and in fact all the Polish parties from left to right are united here. Rather rare situation in Poland, BTW. The objections of Poland, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania (all are EU countries) to Baltic pipeline are multiple. The ecological ones – like you've mentioned. The economical ones – the pipeline is at least twice more expensive than the land pipeline, and increases EU dependence from Gazprom (which is Russian government controlled company). The whole project takes roots in the Russian-Ukraine mafia circles. Semion Mogilevich being the most important player there. The political objections are more complex, although partly connected with the above mentioned, as energy-source economy is politics nowadays, which you as an American know better than I do, even if you're not from TX  Our Western friends in their naivety seem to think they will outsmart the nature and the closed sea of Baltic will not be harmed. And that they will as well outsmart the Russian longstanding policies now done with the use of very shady persons and money. So, if the winter gas Baltic pipeline is completed and one day Germany and half of Europe with them wakes up to double gas prices, or even worse - wakes up to the necessity of political concessions , please don't say 'why didn't you warn us'. I did |
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Post by hollister on May 29, 2008 20:49:51 GMT -7
Tufta or do you want to be called tuftabis?
Thank you for your explanation and the nice walk through the issues! It seems to me that the EU is experiencing some growing pains. As the new members of the EU come on line - the older members are having difficulty accepting the fact that they can not dictate what is "best" to these new members. The Baltic countries have MUCH different needs and outlooks/agendas than they do. I share your concern that mother Russia must be dealt with carefully - they play deep games and always do what is best for them and their needs as they see it through their unique world view! - It does seem that care must be taken now to assure that the apparent offer of reliable oil supply is not in actuality putting Russia in the position of having the power to hit the stop switch of that oil supply. This would put them in a very strong and perpetual bargaining position. It also concerns me that and the apparent intentional by-pass of the old satellite countries could be interpreted as them "punishing" the Baltic states for not being good and subservient children. Russia will always take care of Russia.
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Post by tuftabis on May 30, 2008 8:33:34 GMT -7
Tufta is OK.
Yes, the growing pains is perfect name for what is happening in EU. Growing pains and balance of power establishment.
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Post by hollister on Jun 2, 2008 20:45:18 GMT -7
Tufta is OK. Yes, the growing pains is perfect name for what is happening in EU. Growing pains and balance of power establishment. So, how do you see this playing out? |
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Post by tuftabis on Jun 3, 2008 0:53:43 GMT -7
Tufta is OK. Yes, the growing pains is perfect name for what is happening in EU. Growing pains and balance of power establishment. So, how do you see this playing out? Great question. I have no idea. Saying so first I can start. The growing pains will gradually subside. But no revolution is to be expected. Europe is unchanchable, only the European ways become more and more sophisticated. A dreamer in me nonetheless hopes there's some way to forge one understanding of 'European interest'. The universal feeling of being „European” first, and then Polish, German, French, Italian etc. , will follow. First symptoms are there already. Today's economical (and thus political) problems will be long dead in 50 years. No oil, no natural gas, no coal will be needed. The main problem and so the main political frictions will be about fresh (unsalted) water. I am curious how do you see the future of USA. |
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Post by rdywenur on Jun 3, 2008 4:29:50 GMT -7
Doomed. I already see it going down the toilet rapidly I might add.
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Post by Atlantis5 on Jun 3, 2008 7:08:26 GMT -7
Doomed. I already see it going down the toilet rapidly I might add. Chris Why for to lose hope? Your country is the most powerful on earth, most industrious, most innovative and the American people are a very fine people. The only real and actual problem of issue at present, is simply a short time loss of focus, this will pass. Charles |
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Post by kaima on Jun 3, 2008 8:34:48 GMT -7
So, how do you see this playing out? I am curious how do you see the future of USA. Guess I will jump in without invitation. Tufta, I have to agree with your skepticism on Gazprom and the manipulation that will follow - economic and political blackmail to get the west to do what Russia wishes. It is a good source of revenue for Russia, so I am happy for that poor land & wish only there was less mafia involvement. Well, we have the oil and gas giants doing the same in the US without calling them mafia. For European union, I hope it will follow the German example, where for centuries they had no union but just warring factions; then came the customs union followed 50 years later by the creation of unified Germany sans Austria. They often still retain their mini-state identity and dialect yet remain united as a country. Let us hope Europe manages such a union. Trying to guess what will become of the USA, I am stuck with Hollly - I can't see beyond the depths that we have sunk to so quickly in these modern times, and have no idea how we will develop or where we will proceed politically. Our lack of self discipline lost us the power to pull the economic strings we pulled for decades, our military is exhausted and in need of reconstruction, and the Chinese own us much the same way Gazprom will hold sway over Europe. None of our politicians talk of the economic pain we will suffer to pull ourselves out of our irresponsible debt and obligations. Yet we have a very strong faction in the US that is perfectly content and proud of our direction ... Kai |
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Post by kaima on Jun 3, 2008 8:37:15 GMT -7
Might as well get back on topic ... Gazprom controlled natural gas pipeline company Nord Stream has rejected calls from the Baltic counties and Poland to take the project along a land route and instead will stick to its original plan to lay the pipeline on the bed of the Baltic, YLE Uutiset reported today. Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia have all sited environmental concerns in explaining their preference for a land route for the Nord Stream gas pipeline. According to YLE Uutiset, they are planning to solicit help from the EU to get the route changed. ...  from oilandgaseurasia.wordpress.com/page/2/ |
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Post by tuftabis on Jun 3, 2008 12:29:02 GMT -7
Kai, thanks for taking part. You see the problem is that even finding a good example to follow is not that easy in Europe. But I guess the success of EU is related to not following any examples. And the success is still rather short-termed with most of the time in the union Germany was divided. Nonetheless, since the nice subject emerged let me say how I see it. I think the united Germany from 1866 on is not a good example to follow and from both German internal and wider European perspective. From the point of view of many of the little German states - some of them felt they are forced into the union by militaristic Prussian state, Protestant faith and Roman Catholic church being fought against. While as you know some German states were Catholic. From the point of view of Germany's neighbors – like Poles, French, Danes, which were treated as enemies and Kulturkampf was implemented against non-German citizens of German empire. I would say that Prussians spoiled what was relatively easy to achieve at that time – a really united German states together with the lands they won from the above mentioned neighbors. The reason for this failure was using force. Much better example to follow is the union of Kingdom of Poland and Duchy of Lithuania called Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodow (or First Rzeczpospolita), which lasted from 1385- 1791. There was no force used to forge this union and all tensions were worked out a little resembling as they are in EU – by negotiations. But the rulers have spoiled the occasion of forming the union that could stand the test of time even longer anyway. They treated part of the citizens of First Rzeczpospolita as worse citizens due to their Ukrainian nationality and so was their Eastern Orthodox faith, while Catholic religion was treated as the leading one. So the fundamental reason of a failure was exactly the same as in your example. It was using force. Ukrainians instead of being made a third main party in the Union were forced to be in the union. So they fought against the rulers making them and themselves weaker and weaker, while the neghbors grew stronger and stronger. To finish I have to say that Danes, Swedes, Finns would most probably present their ways of forging a united Scandinavian mentality or union as the best example. And Italians their Risorgimento. Czechs and Slovaks their 'velvet' ways of marriage and divorce. Even the French might start talking about Joan d'Arc and the end of a 100 years long war with France remaining united and French  And many other I don't remember at the moment. |
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And many other I don't remember at the moment.