nathanael
Cosmopolitan
: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
Posts: 636
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Post by nathanael on Jun 15, 2008 8:18:19 GMT -7
"At the moment, this little country is holding a sword over the whole of Europe." If Ireland succeds it will be a great victory for the oponents of abortion throughout the world. These were the thoughts that crossed my mind as I waited for the outcome of the Irish referendum. The whole world was watching. When it was over, Ireland - a tiny Celtic nation of 4 million people - had succeeded in preserving her sovereignty! I fully supported Ireland on this issue! The European Union needs not any more control that it has been given! As a Pole, I hoped that Poland would hold a similar referendum, also. It was not to be. We have too many conflicting interests. But the great majority of Polish people stand with Ireland, even though their quest for referendum did not succeed. Vote or no vote, Poland will always be Poland, sovereign and free! The European Union better not forget this!
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Post by hollister on Jun 15, 2008 15:38:35 GMT -7
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Post by Jaga on Jun 15, 2008 19:43:02 GMT -7
The voting in Ireland is quite a big topic in Polish news. The commentators say that Irish did not know what they vote for therefore they were voting "no". - just like the chart from Holly states.
Poles are surprised since Irelands seem to be very well as a part of EU.
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Post by tuftabis on Jun 16, 2008 0:35:42 GMT -7
But the great majority of Polish people stand with Ireland, even though their quest for referendum did not succeed. Vote or no vote, Poland will always be Poland, sovereign and free! The European Union better not forget this! The polls say 45 % of Poles are for the treaty ratification with 24% against it. Besides European Union is "we", so you could as well exclaim "let me better not forget Poland will always be Poland". |
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Post by tuftabis on Jun 17, 2008 1:23:39 GMT -7
Majority of Poles support Lisbon Treaty 16.06.2008
According to a recent poll by the TNS OBOP, 45% of the respondents have stated that the president should ratify the treaty.
Minister Michal Kaminski, from the President’s Office, said that the Polish head of state is ready to sign the document.
The poll showed that 71% of the respondents would vote for the treaty, should a referendum be held in Poland. Only 14 of those polled declared themselves firmly against the document..
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Post by pieter on Jun 18, 2008 11:32:43 GMT -7
Probably the Irish are as Eurosceptic as the British, French and Dutch, who fear a Centralistic
and powerful Brussels, and want to keep the power in National hands, in their political capitals.
They believe in National democracy not in Federal democracy, which is more abstract and
distant to them!
Pieter
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Post by Jaga on Jun 18, 2008 21:58:56 GMT -7
Pieter, Tufta,
how big is a risk that EU would separate back into the countries? There were so many attempts with the common consitution etc and all of it was unsuccessful.
It does look that countries want to take as much as they can from EU, but they do not want to pay for it.
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Post by tuftabis on Jun 19, 2008 2:40:28 GMT -7
Pieter, Tufta, how big is a risk that EU would separate back into the countries? There were so many attempts with the common consitution etc and all of it was unsuccessful. It does look that countries want to take as much as they can from EU, but they do not want to pay for it. I'd be extremely interested what Pieter will say here - a man from 'old Europe'  They are a liitle fed up with some EU aspects, while in the East the people are mainly enthusiastic even if it is hard to agree that the main decisions in EU are made by people who were not elected! Can you imagine something like that in US? But slowly, slowly we will change that. I think there's no real risk of stopping the process. EU works well with and without the constitution and with or without the Lisbon treaty. And the Irish are not anti-EU even if they now more pay than recieve. They are against large countries' domination stenghtened by the treaty they rejected. |
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george
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 568
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Post by george on Jun 19, 2008 17:24:12 GMT -7
I would say the Irish are ingrates. The Europeon Union turned Ireland from a beer soaked, farm economy into a modern economy with one of the best standard of livings in Europe. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!
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Post by pieter on Jun 19, 2008 18:17:33 GMT -7
Pieter, Tufta, how big is a risk that EU would separate back into the countries? There were so many attempts with the common consitution etc and all of it was unsuccessful. It does look that countries want to take as much as they can from EU, but they do not want to pay for it. Jaga, Es a minority Yes voter in favor of the European Constitution and a believer in an united Europe I say, I don't believe we will separate back into the old situation of a devided Europe. Although people voted againt the EU constitution and expansion of the EU, people know that the EU is a succes. After centuries of wars, the nation building of European nations in the 19th century (in which Germany and Italy became nation states for the first time), the french-German war of 1870, the first world war and the second world war, people know that almost 60 years of European Union have brought economical progress and stability, peace (the arch rivals France and Germany learned how to coexist), cooperation, development of the poorer regions, abolition of totalitarian and dictatorial systems and the emergence of a shared market and currancy, made live better for the Europeans who lived inside the EU. Even the oponents of the EU, the Euro and Europeans cooperation know that! You are right that countries took the benefit of the EU, but do not want to take the consequence of that, the fact that it need to be financed. That the idea of European Union needs financial backing and solidarity between the nations. Poland knows that now, and Ireland knew that in the past. But now it has become a prosperous country it forgets it's difficult past, the fact that it was one of Europe's poorest countries with a lot of unemployment and backwardness. Why do you think that there are more Irish people living in the USA than in Ireland? It was because Ireland was a poor Island, and people were fleeing it! A total of 35,975,855 Americans (12% of total population) reported Irish ancestry in the 2006 American Community Survey. The population of Ireland is slightly over 6 million (2007), with 4.4 million in the Republic of Ireland (1.7 million in Greater Dublin) and an estimated 1.75 million in Northern Ireland (800,000 in Greater Belfast). Pieter |
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Post by uncltim on Jun 21, 2008 10:15:28 GMT -7
The Lisbon Treaty and the massive contempt of the ruling class for the voters
By Tom Scotney on Jun 19, 08 07:42 AM in Politics
We've heard a lot about respect in recent days over the Lisbon Treaty - which hopes to reform the EU and which was approved by parliament yesterday.
Gordon Brown said he respected the Irish people's decision to reject the treaty, which by all rights should leave it dead in the water. He added he had to respect the wishes of other countries that approved the treaty, and also respect the House of Commons, which also approved the treaty.
Here's an idea. How about some respect for the people of Britain?
This Government lied to us.
After being given a manifesto promise that we would be given a referendum on the treaty where are we now? Of course there's a simple reason why we haven't been consulted by politicians on this - there is not a snowball's chance in hell that they'd get the decision they want.
The trouble with democracy is that every peasant gets a say. Luckily, regarding the EU, the political elite in Westminster have found a way to avoid this piffling little problem. If you think the people don't want what they ought to, either a) don't ask them in the first place; or b) ask them and then ignore them.
I've heard so much talk recently from pro-Europeans about how the Irish didn't vote on the question put to them. Or how they didn't understand the issues involved. Or how the low turnout there means the result is irrelevant. Please. Don't treat them like idiots.
Every country in the EU has to approve this treaty for it to pass. So if the Irish rejected it, it should be obvious to anyone with a few firing brain cells that this is dead as a dodo. Unless of course, the politicians are planning some way to ignore the views of the people, just like they did the last time this treaty (under a slightly different name) was rejected.
When Gordon Brown says we need to respect the views of countries still to ratify the treaty, what he means is this: Let's wait until all the governments that ignore their people approve this treaty, then we can sort out the little problem of the one that respects its electorate enough to ask it.
The Stirrer wanted to know why five million Irish people got to decide the future of half a billion Europeans. The answer is simple. They were the only ones whose politicians respected them enough to ask.
The Government wants us to have a say in Europe. Well more than half of the people here know what they'd like to say to the Lisbon Treaty. Why won't Gordon Brown let us?
*EDIT* - Looks like Downing Street's own website (via Guido) gives some indication of how the public feel about this.
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They are a liitle fed up with some EU aspects, while in the East the people are mainly enthusiastic even if it is hard to agree that the main decisions in EU are made by people who were not elected! Can you imagine something like that in US? But slowly, slowly we will change that.