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Post by Jaga on Aug 10, 2008 9:20:49 GMT -7
I see a huge hipocrisy how people in different countries look at wars depending who starts it etc etc...
I do not want to defend Russia but Russia did not do anything worse than what the US and Israel did in the past. They reacted to the Georgia's entering Ossetia. Now they call it "enforcing the peace". Do you enforce the peace through the war??
American news state that Russa over-reacted but what was their reaction when Israel started war in Lebanon only after 2 of their soldiers were kidnapped. In this war over 1000 civilians died. Did America protest against Israel reaction? No, they stated that Israel has a right to protect itself.
Now, CNN stated that Russia is a superpower and it wants to show its strength.... They reminded that Russia invaded Afghanistan and many civilians suffered.
What about the US invading Afghanistan and Iraq? Did they have more right to do it in respect of civilian suffering?
+++++++++++++ I see just hipocrisy....
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Post by Atlantis5 on Aug 10, 2008 13:37:40 GMT -7
I see a huge hipocrisy how people in different countries look at wars depending who starts it etc etc... I do not want to defend Russia but Russia did not do anything worse than what the US and Israel did in the past. They reacted to the Georgia's entering Ossetia. Now they call it "enforcing the peace". Do you enforce the peace through the war?? American news state that Russa over-reacted but what was their reaction when Israel started war in Lebanon only after 2 of their soldiers were kidnapped. In this war over 1000 civilians died. Did America protest against Israel reaction? No, they stated that Israel has a right to protect itself. Now, CNN stated that Russia is a superpower and it wants to show its strength.... They reminded that Russia invaded Afghanistan and many civilians suffered. What about the US invading Afghanistan and Iraq? Did they have more right to do it in respect of civilian suffering? +++++++++++++ I see just hipocrisy.... Jaga We must exhibit a certain amount of patience with these people. For they are staying with what is safe and with this a certain amount of ignorance, they wish to treat with great respect of {Stupidity as a virtue}. As with many in America, they believe the propaganda instilled within them from the cold war years of the old Soviet Union that no longer exist. It is for some years now, {The Russian Federation}. A vast difference, but still the lingering carry over of previous perceptions and old knowledge. And with their ignorance, so goes also a great magnitude of lack of knowledge. Beyond also that of political tension and shortness of patience between Georgia and Russia. Is a matter of haughtiness with many of Georgian nationalist toward Russians, and yet, some of the best military officers in the Russian military are Georgians. And not to leave out of mention, the {Rose Revolution of not so long past} This is still an acorn stuck in the craw of Russia that is difficult to swallow. Much of Georgia and territories border that of Russia. With this is the friction generated by break-a-way separates regions of Abkhazia and now, South Ossetia. With this, is the primary reason of Georgia becoming more incensed with the idea of maintaining their territorial integrity. For they see in this, a gradual disintegration of their power. With the Americans, Georgia is a vital friend and one they wish for to join into NATO. For they have invested heavily into Georgia for political and economic reforms. A very heavy investment.. For Georgia is vital to American interest in the whole of Eurasia. Not to mention as also of: Georgia is a corridor for oil from the Caspian region to the Black see, and the Mediterranean through Turkey. It is a matter of not just power, but in-as-much as maintaining the US prestige in the whole of Eurasia. Now perhaps some will realize for what and for why, of our many wars over time in Europe. Charles
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Post by wayneprice on Aug 10, 2008 16:52:59 GMT -7
Just throwing this into the discussion for what it is worth.
Within the past year, I spent some time with the Georgian armed forces in Georgia and saw what their capabilities are and heard their concerns in regards to their big neighbor to the north. I am proud to say I have friends in Georgia, and my biggest concern now is that the US, while strongly voicing it's concern, will do NOTHING to actually stop the Russians from over running Georgia. This should sound very very familiar to Poles everywhere. It will be like 1939 all over again!
As I write this, I just got two serious reports, one that the Russian Black Sea Fleet has engaged naval units of Georgian navy in the Black Sea, and more seriously, that Russian tanks and artillery have invested the Georgian city of Gori, well south of the South Ossetian enclave. Clearly this is going to be the Russian bear beating up a small independent neighbor, as it has throughout it' history!
War should always be the very very last option in any dispute, but when is the right time to say enough is enough? Should the free nations of the world step in and stop the Russians? What is going to be the thinking of the other free peoples of the world IF the US does nothing? What is the word of the United States worth if we turn our back on Georgia? I was there when Georgia was offered support IF they supported the war in Iraq. What is the word of the US worth? Significantly more to the issues of the Polish Forum, the US has offered similar support to Poland IF the missiles are placed on Polish soil? Can Poland trust the word of the US? I think the response of the US to the Georgian issue will play a significant role in the decision. Deeds, not Words will matter. Does the presidency of George W. Bush become one of Churchill or one of Chamberlain to our friends and allies?
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Post by justjohn on Aug 11, 2008 4:53:53 GMT -7
Just throwing this into the discussion for what it is worth. Within the past year, I spent some time with the Georgian armed forces in Georgia and saw what their capabilities are and heard their concerns in regards to their big neighbor to the north. I am proud to say I have friends in Georgia, and my biggest concern now is that the US, while strongly voicing it's concern, will do NOTHING to actually stop the Russians from over running Georgia. This should sound very very familiar to Poles everywhere. It will be like 1939 all over again! As I write this, I just got two serious reports, one that the Russian Black Sea Fleet has engaged naval units of Georgian navy in the Black Sea, and more seriously, that Russian tanks and artillery have invested the Georgian city of Gori, well south of the South Ossetian enclave. Clearly this is going to be the Russian bear beating up a small independent neighbor, as it has throughout it' history! War should always be the very very last option in any dispute, but when is the right time to say enough is enough? Should the free nations of the world step in and stop the Russians? What is going to be the thinking of the other free peoples of the world IF the US does nothing? What is the word of the United States worth if we turn our back on Georgia? I was there when Georgia was offered support IF they supported the war in Iraq. What is the word of the US worth? Significantly more to the issues of the Polish Forum, the US has offered similar support to Poland IF the missiles are placed on Polish soil? Can Poland trust the word of the US? I think the response of the US to the Georgian issue will play a significant role in the decision. Deeds, not Words will matter. Does the presidency of George W. Bush become one of Churchill or one of Chamberlain to our friends and allies? Wayne, Wise words indeed. Churchill or Chamberlain. Hmmmmmm - - -
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Post by justjohn on Aug 11, 2008 5:54:54 GMT -7
Another point of view from a blog - - -
Thursday, August 7, 2008
Massive US Naval Armada Heads For Iran
Operation Brimstone ended only one week ago. This was the joint US/UK/French naval war games in the Atlantic Ocean preparing for a naval blockade of Iran and the likely resulting war in the Persian Gulf area. The massive war games included a US Navy supercarrier battle group, an US Navy expeditionary carrier battle group, a Royal Navy carrier battle group, a French nuclear hunter-killer submarine plus a large number of US Navy cruisers, destroyers and frigates playing the "enemy force".
The lead American ship in these war games, the USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN71) and its Carrier Strike Group Two (CCSG-2) are now headed towards Iran along with the USS Ronald Reagon (CVN76) and its Carrier Strike Group Seven (CCSG-7) coming from Japan.
They are joining two existing USN battle groups in the Gulf area: the USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN72) with its Carrier Strike Group Nine (CCSG-9); and the USS Peleliu (LHA-5) with its expeditionary strike group.
Likely also under way towards the Persian Gulf is the USS Iwo Jima (LHD-7) and its expeditionary strike group, the UK Royal Navy HMS Ark Royal (R07) carrier battle group, assorted French naval assets including the nuclear hunter-killer submarine Amethyste and French Naval Rafale fighter jets on-board the USS Theodore Roosevelt. These ships took part in the just completed Operation Brimstone.
The build up of naval forces in the Gulf will be one of the largest multi-national naval armadas since the First and Second Gulf Wars. The intent is to create a US/EU naval blockade (which is an Act of War under international law) around Iran (with supporting air and land elements) to prevent the shipment of benzene and certain other refined oil products headed to Iranian ports. Iran has limited domestic oil refining capacity and imports 40% of its benzene. Cutting off benzene and other key products would cripple the Iranian economy. The neo-cons are counting on such a blockade launching a war with Iran.
The US Naval forces being assembled include the following:
Carrier Strike Group Nine USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN72) nuclear powered supercarrier with its Carrier Air Wing Two Destroyer Squadron Nine: USS Mobile Bay (CG53) guided missile cruiser USS Russell (DDG59) guided missile destroyer USS Momsen (DDG92) guided missile destroyer USS Shoup (DDG86) guided missile destroyer USS Ford (FFG54) guided missile frigate USS Ingraham (FFG61) guided missile frigate USS Rodney M. Davis (FFG60) guided missile frigate USS Curts (FFG38) guided missile frigate Plus one or more nuclear hunter-killer submarines
Peleliu Expeditionary Strike Group USS Peleliu (LHA-5) a Tarawa-class amphibious assault carrier USS Pearl Harbor (LSD52) assult ship USS Dubuque (LPD8) assult ship/landing dock USS Cape St. George (CG71) guided missile cruiser USS Halsey (DDG97) guided missile destroyer USS Benfold (DDG65) guided missile destroyer
Carrier Strike Group Two USS Theodore Roosevelt (DVN71) nuclear powered supercarrier with its Carrier Air Wing Eight Destroyer Squadron 22 USS Monterey (CG61) guided missile cruiser USS Mason (DDG87) guided missile destroyer USS Nitze (DDG94) guided missile destroyer USS Sullivans (DDG68) guided missile destroyer
USS Springfield (SSN761) nuclear powered hunter-killer submarine
IWO ESG ~ Iwo Jima Expeditionary Strike Group USS Iwo Jima (LHD7) amphibious assault carrier with its Amphibious Squadron Four and with its 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit USS San Antonio (LPD17) assault ship USS Velia Gulf (CG72) guided missile cruiser USS Ramage (DDG61) guided missile destroyer USS Carter Hall (LSD50) assault ship USS Roosevelt (DDG80) guided missile destroyer
USS Hartfore (SSN768) nuclear powered hunter-killer submarine
Carrier Strike Group Seven USS Ronald Reagan (CVN76) nuclear powered supercarrier with its Carrier Air Wing 14 Destroyer Squadron 7 USS Chancellorsville (CG62) guided missile cruiser USS Howard (DDG83) guided missile destroyer USS Gridley (DDG101) guided missile destroyer USS Decatur (DDG73) guided missile destroyer USS Thach (FFG43) guided missile frigate USNS Rainier (T-AOE-7) fast combat support ship
Also likely to join the battle armada:
UK Royal Navy HMS Ark Royal Carrier Strike Group with assorted guided missile destroyers and frigates, nuclear hunter-killer submarines and support ships
French Navy nuclear powered hunter-killer submarines (likely the Amethyste and perhaps others), plus French Naval Rafale fighter jets operating off of the USS Theodore Roosevelt as the French Carrier Charles de Gaulle is in dry dock, and assorted surface warships
Various other US Navy warships and submarines and support ships. The following USN ships took part (as the "enemy" forces) in Operation Brimstone and several may join in:
USS San Jacinto (CG56) guided missile cruiser USS Anzio (CG68) guided missile cruiser USS Normandy (CG60) guided missile cruiser USS Carney (DDG64) guided missile destroyer USS Oscar Austin (DDG79) guided missile destroyer USS Winston S. Churchill (DDG81) guided missile destroyer USS Carr (FFG52) guided missile frigate
The USS Iwo Jima and USS Peleliu Expeditionary Strike Groups have USMC Harrier jump jets and an assortment of assault and attack helicopters. The Expeditionary Strike Groups have powerful USMC Expeditionary Units with amphibious armor and ground forces trained for operating in shallow waters and in seizures of land assets, such as Qeshm Island (a 50 mile long island off of Bandar Abbas in the Gulf of Hormuz and headquarters of the Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps).
The large and very advanced nature of the US Naval warships is not only directed at Iran. There is a great fear that Russia and China may oppose the naval and air/land blockade of Iran. If Russian and perhaps Chinese naval warships escort commercial tankers to Iran in violation of the blockade it could be the most dangerous at-sea confrontation since the Cuban Missile Crisis. The US and allied Navies, by front loading a Naval blockade force with very powerful guided missile warships and strike carriers is attempting to have a force so powerful that Russia and China will not be tempted to mess with. This is a most serious game of military brinkmanship with major nuclear armed powers that have profound objections to the neo-con grand strategy and to western control of all of the Middle East's oil supply.
The Russian Navy this spring sent a major battle fleet into the Mediterranean headed by the modern aircraft carrier the Admiral Kuznetsov and the flagship of its Black Sea Fleet, the Guided Missile Heavy Cruiser Moskva. This powerful fleet has at least 11 surface ships and unknown numbers of subs and can use the Russian naval facility at Syria's Tartous port for resupply. The Admiral Kuznetsov carries approximately 47 warplanes and 10 helicopters. The warplanes are mostly the powerful Su-33, a naval version (with mid-air refueling capability) of the Su-27 family. While the Su-33 is a very powerful warplane it lacks the power of the stealth USAF F-22. However, the Russians insist that they have developed a plasma based system that allows them to stealth any aircraft and a recent incident where Russian fighters were able to appear unannounced over a US Navy carrier battle group tends to confirm their claims. The Su-33 can be armed with the 3M82 Moskit sea-skimming missile (NATO code name SS-N-22 Sunburn) and the even more powerful P-800 Oniks (also named Yakhonts; NATO code name SS-N-26 Onyx). Both missiles are designed to kill US Navy supercarriers by getting past the cruiser/destroyer screen and the USN point-defense Phalanx system by using high supersonic speeds and violent end maneuvers. Russian subs currently use the underwater rocket VA-111 Shkval (Squall), which is fired from standard 533mm torpedo tubes and reaches a speed of 360kph (230mph) underwater. There is no effective countermeasures to this system and no western counterpart.
A strategic diversion has been created for Russia.
The Republic of Georgia, with US backing, is actively preparing for war on South Ossetia. The South Ossetia capital has been shelled and a large Georgian tank force has been heading towards the border. Russia has stated that it will not sit by and allow the Georgians to attack South Ossetia. The Russians are great chess players and this game may not turn out so well for the neo-cons. UPDATE 8 August 2008 ~ War has broken out between Georgia and South Ossetia. At least 10 Russian troops have been killed and 30 wounded and 2 Russian fighter jets downed. American Marines, a thousand of them, have recently been in Georgia training the Georgian military forces. Several European nations stopped Bush and others from allowing Georgia into NATO. Russia is moving a large military force with armor towards the area. This could get bad, and remember it is just a strategic diversion....but one that could have horrific effects.
Link to story "Russia sends forces into Georgia rebel conflict".
FURTHER UPDATE ~ Russian military forces in active combat; now total of four Russian fighter jets reported downed.
ADDITIONAL UPDATE ~ Georgia calls for US help; Russian Air Force bombs Georgian air bases. DEBKA, the Israeli strategy and military site, states that Israeli military officers are advising the Georgian armed forces in combat operations and that 1,000 Israelis are in-combat on the side of Georgia at this time.
Kuwait has activated its "Emergency War Plan" as it and other Gulf nations prepare for the likelihood of a major regional war in the Middle East involving weapons of mass destruction.
The two-ton elephant in the living room of the neo-con strategy is the advanced biowar (ABW) that Iran, and to a lessor extent Syria, has. This places the motherlands of the major neo-con nations (America, France, the United Kingdom), as well as Israel, in grave danger. When the Soviet Union fell the Iranians hired as many out-of-work former Soviet advanced biowar experts as possible. In the last 15 or so years they have helped to develop a truly world class ABW program utilizing recombination DNA genetic engineering technology to create a large number of man made killer viruses. This form of weapon system does not require high tech military delivery systems. The viruses are sub-microscopic and once seeded in a population use the population itself as vectors. Seeding can be done without notice in shopping malls, churches, and other public places. The only real defense to an advanced global strategic biowar attack is to lock down the population as rapidly as possible and let those infected die off.
Unless the public gets it act together and forces the neo-cons to stop the march to yet another war in the Middle East we are apt to see a truly horrific nightmare unfold in OUR COUNTRIES.
Interesting point of view, don't you think?
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Post by Jaga on Aug 11, 2008 20:13:23 GMT -7
Hi Wayne, I knew a couple of Georgian students in Pocatello university where I used to work. Georgians are proud people. Still, it was Saakaszwili who decided silently enter Ossetia just in the beginning of olympics. If he would not do it then Russia would not overreact. Of course it is cruel to bomb cities and civilians like Russia does. Still, there is not just one victim here. Even Walesa stated that Saakaszwili was mistaken by attacking South Ossetia. People who live in Ossetia are NOT Georgians. You can see it here: wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/1,80708,5574954,Walesa__Saakaszwili_popelnil_blad.html Wa³êsa: Saakaszwili pope³ni³ b³¹d jas, Gazeta.pl2008-08-11, ostatnia aktualizacja 2008-08-11 13:14 Gruzja pope³ni³a b³¹d atakuj¹c Osetiê Po³udniow¹ - uwa¿a by³y prezydent Lech Wa³êsa. - W tych warunkach te sprawy za³atwia siê inaczej - powiedzia³ na antenie radia TOK FM.
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Post by wayneprice on Aug 12, 2008 15:26:22 GMT -7
Jaga,
I agree with you that the Government of Georgia did in fact make the first move against Ossetia, but we have to remember that Ossetia IS part of the Republic of Georgia, no matter what the ethnic make up is of the area. Since it is in fact part of Georgia, Georgia didn't "invade" any other country! The Russian forces on the ground there are "peacekeepers", not defending their own territory, but preventing the Republic of Georgia from control of their own country! Now, I agree that the people of Ossetia, who are in fact citizens of the Republic of Georgia, are not happy with their national government in Tbilisi. But no other country in the world besides the Russian Federation even recognizes Ossetia as a separate country - it IS part of Georgia.
A much more interesting issue may come to light as a result of this conflict. What happens if the Government of the Ukraine decides to not let the Russian Black Sea Fleet back into Sevastopol? Will the PM Putin then send in "peacekeepers" to help the Russians that live there from the oppression from the Kiev government? Crimea is 58% Russian, but IS part of Ukraine. Why shouldn't Russia help them with their independence too?
I'll buy off on South Ossetia, leaving the Republic of Georgia and joining with North Ossetia and becoming an independent Ossettian republic, but do you really think that Russia would let North Ossetia join with their ethnic neighbors to the south and become autonomous republic, free of Russian interference?
Wayne
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george
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 568
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Post by george on Aug 12, 2008 17:00:25 GMT -7
Any suggestions on what were supposed to do??
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Post by Jaga on Aug 12, 2008 19:06:41 GMT -7
Hi Wayne, I agree with you that Russia overreacted - as typical superpower that wants to remind everybody about its strenght There is also no any justification or explanation of civilian casualties and bombing of the georgian towns.
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Post by Jaga on Aug 12, 2008 19:08:19 GMT -7
Any suggestions on what were supposed to do?? George, the world reacted in a positive and constructive way. 4 presidents (among them Polish president Kaczynski) and one prime-minister flew to Georgia in Polish airplane. They landed in Azerbejdzan but they are on the way to Georgia. I think that this scared Russia a bit and they halted the operation.
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Post by Jaga on Aug 12, 2008 19:11:32 GMT -7
5 Eastern European presidents head to Georgiawww.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/12/europe/EU-Poland-Georgia.phpWARSAW, Poland: Poland's president departed Tuesday for Georgia on a joint visit with the leaders of four ex-Soviet republics that he said was meant to send a signal of solidarity with Tbilisi. The five leaders plan to meet with Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili. President Lech Kaczynski left Warsaw in a government plane along with his counterparts from Lithuania and Estonia. The plane will stop in Kiev to pick up Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, while Latvia's president will join the group in Georgia's capital. "This means the solidarity of five states with the nation that has fallen victim to aggression," Kaczynski told reporters. "We may say that the Russian state has once again shown its face, its true face," he added. "We are saddened by that but we must accept the facts of life." Still, Kaczynski greeted as "good news" the announcement that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has ordered a halt to military action in Georgia. Kaczynski's office said that he discussed the plan to visit Tbilisi late Monday in a phone conversation with U.S. President George W. Bush, and that Bush expressed full support for the mission. Poland and other former Soviet satellites have expressed deep anxiety that the escalation of fighting between Russia and Georgia signals a resurgent Russian willingness to use force to dominate the region. Kaczynski and the presidents of the three Baltic states Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia issued a joint statement after the fighting broke out calling Russia's policy "imperialist and revisionist." They also called on NATO and the European Union to stand up to Moscow.
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Post by Atlantis5 on Aug 12, 2008 19:20:11 GMT -7
Any suggestions on what were supposed to do?? George There are at present, 100 American advisor's in Georgia. This is what the American response was to Georgia as rather a disappointment to their expectations. The lack of American tactical response must not be of blaim to them. For of this moment as we are speaking, they are inbroiled in some rather sensative issues with the Russian Federation. The Russian armour was a walk through of the Georgian military. The field of combat is now a litter of Georgian abandoned heavy combat equipment and personal combat equipment abandoned by their military. In actual fact, the Georgian armour crews panic in the face of the Russian assault, abandoning their armour vehicles with out so much of a shot. {If familiar with Panzer tactical combat manoeuvre-if over run by the enemy, the vehicle is turn into the face of the enemy at full speed for head on for best use of vehicle kannon efficiency, the most strength of the vehicle, is the heavy slopping front skin}{It would appear the Georgian armour crews were poorly trained and lacking in skill, with a demonstrated lack of courage-a fault of in-effective effective training}. This is typical Russian assault combat tactics. Control of the air/with combined armoured assault. As well understood of Russian tactics and reasons of this nature.--Is not to invade, but to provide a bloody nose for their {Georgian} actions. Now, there will be an occupation for the time it will take for the Government of Georgia to stabilize the country and think of their mistakes. In other words, this was a punitive action, not an unexpected combat situation. Remember of your history? Your fore fathers fought some very nasty military actions against the English to gain theirs and your freedom. We of Europe are not different. Nor of the people of both Ossetia and Abkhazia, they need and require of their freedom in-as-much as your fore-fathers fought for theirs and of yours in freedom. These people are well disposed to Russia and could opt for incorporation. The very most of them hold a Russian pass-port {not a Georgian pass-port}. And yes George, I once served in our Panzer command whilst serving my required Wehrdienst as of our Wehrpflicht. My rank was then a OR-3 {Nato} Obergefreiter. I am not sure, I think this would be your Private rank, not sure at moment. Panzer duty is not alway pleasant. It is hot in summer/cold in winter and the butt receives a good dose of beat up in heavy manoeuvre on rough ground. {it feels as if the tooth fillings are to be knocked out of your mouth and in the instance of the main tube being fired {Kannon used}the concussion is not so pleasant to the head. So yes, I understand of those armour crews taking a run, but this is in the face of the enemy, that is no excuse in combat. Only if the vehicle is so dis abled and the weapons are out of commission, yes, it becomes time to abandon the vehicle and take the chance with capture. Charles
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Post by wayneprice on Aug 12, 2008 19:40:10 GMT -7
Jaga, George and Charles,
I think we have a GREAT discussion going here and hope others join in!
I VERY much agree that there is no excuse for direct infliction of civilian casualties, but in every conflict, innocents suffer, THAT is one of the main reasons that war should be the LAST resort, not the first. War is mean, ugly, inhumane - it is supposed to be, that way it is something to be dreaded and avoided if at all possible.
Now, what should be done? Well, I'm not sure that a peace keeping force that has Russians, Georgians or Americans would be useful at all. BUT, a peace keeping force of Polish, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, and Ukrainian troops would be. But does anyone seriously think that the Russian Bear would consent to that? The peace keeping forces would have to be absolutely neutral, and have the moral high ground. That rules out the first three countries, Russia, Georgia, and the US. The Russians wouldn't like the next 5 countries I mentioned, so the EU would have to come up with a real, neutral force, that is strong enough to maintain the peace. I'd suggest Spain, France, and Belgium, but the questions are: 1) Would they be willing to send troops? 2) Who will pay for it?
One of the causes for this last clash, in my opinion was the recognition of Kosova as an independent country. The Russians looked upon it as if it was OK for the Kosova people to separate from Serbia, then it should be OK for Ossetia and Abkhazia to separate from Georgia. Unfortunately, the Russian peace keepers had an agenda of their own. That was not the case with KFOR.
Wayne
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Post by justjohn on Aug 13, 2008 3:15:00 GMT -7
One of the causes for this last clash, in my opinion was the recognition of Kosova as an independent country. The Russians looked upon it as if it was OK for the Kosova people to separate from Serbia, then it should be OK for Ossetia and Abkhazia to separate from Georgia. Unfortunately, the Russian peace keepers had an agenda of their own. That was not the case with KFOR. Wayne Wayne, you are absolutely correct about this cause. If memory serves me correctly, Putin did state in fact a tit-for-tat response was coming.
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Post by justjohn on Aug 13, 2008 4:07:08 GMT -7
I'd suggest Spain, France, and Belgium, but the questions are: 1) Would they be willing to send troops? 2) Who will pay for it? Wayne Again it appears that they may be moving in that direction. RIA Novosti Russia, France agree on 6 principles to resolve S.Ossetia crisis 12/08/2008 20:06 MOSCOW, August 12 (RIA Novosti) - The presidents of Russia and France agreed Tuesday on six principles to resolve the situation in the Georgian breakaway republic of South Ossetia. "The first is not to resort to the use of force. The second is to halt all military action. The third is free access to humanitarian aid. The fourth is that Georgian Armed Forces should return to their bases. The fifth is that Russian Armed Forces should pull back to their positions prior to combat," Russian President Dmitry Medvedev told a news conference with his French counterpart, Nicolas Sarkozy. "The sixth is the beginning of international discussions on the future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia and on ways to ensure their security," he added. Medvedev also said that Georgia's August 8 attack on Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, should be taken into account when deciding the future status of both South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another breakaway Georgian republic. He made reference to the "precedent" of Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence in February, and its subsequent recognition by the United States and the majority of EU countries. The Russian president added that the residents of the two rebel regions should be consulted on whether they wanted to be part of Georgia. "They will give an unequivocal answer, an answer that cannot be given by Russia or any other country," he said Medvedev also accused Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili of lying when he said that Georgia had ceased fire two days ago. "As to the statement made by the Georgian president that a ceasefire has been in place for two days, this is a lie," he said. Medvedev also commented that Russia's offensive against Georgia was the only possible response to Tbilisi's attack on South Ossetia. "If Russia had had another way to react to Georgia's aggression against South Ossetia, we would have done this. There was no other way to respond," Medvedev said. "Bullies differ from normal people in that when they sense blood it's very hard to stop them, and then one is forced to employ surgical methods," he added. Russia has said that some 1,600 people were killed in Friday's attack on Tskhinvali by Georgian forces. Russia has accused Georgian troops of atrocities, including the burning alive of women and children. The U.S. led Western condemnation of Russia's military operation to "enforce peace" in South Ossetia, with President George Bush calling Russia's response "disproportionate." He also said that Russia "has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people." Sarkozy said at the news conference that Europe was ready to join peacekeeping operations in South Ossetia.The French leader is due to take the Russian-French peace plan to Tbilisi later this evening. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said however that if Tbilisi rejected the peace plan, Moscow would have to take measures to prevent further violence in South Ossetia. South Ossetia and Abkhazia broke away from Georgia after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. Both republics fought vicious wars with Tbilisi that eventually ended in the retreat of Georgian troops and the regions gaining de facto independence. Georgia alleged, although the claims were unproven, that the rebels had been armed with Russian-supplied military equipment. When the Rose Revolution street protests swept the pro-Western Saakashvili to power in 2004, the new president vowed to bring the regions back under central government control. Russian had earlier granted citizenship to residents of both republics. Saakashvili also pledged to bring Georgia into NATO. For this to happen, the country's "frozen" conflicts would have to be resolved. Indeed, South Ossetia and Abkhazia were the reason why Georgia was not given a NATO Membership Action Plan in April, objections from Germany and France that doing so would unnecessarily antagonize Russia thwarting U.S. enthusiasm for welcoming Tbilisi into the military alliance. NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said on Tuesday that a Russia-NATO session on the situation in Georgia and its breakaway republic of South Ossetia would be held in the near future.
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