How Polish can you be?

[pieter]

Pole, Half-Pole and mixtures

In the discussion about Poland, Polish culture, Polishness and feeling
connected to Poland or partly Polish there is little news about people
who are half Polish and half another nationality.

In which way are these people stil connected to the country of
their father, mother or grandparents from one of their parents?
Chopin was the son of a Polish mother and an exiled French
father. He was considered Polish, because he spend the first
20 years of his life in Poland, while the second half of his life
he spend in France. Was he a Polish composer, French composer,
Polish-French composer, a French-Polish-composer or a
European composer?

I am Dutch, raised with Dutch culture, but had a (Dutch)
nationalized mother of Polish origin who spoke Dutch with
a Slav accent. People often mistook that accent with French.
That she took as a compliment, being a francophone!
Later her Dutch improved, but the slight Polish element
never left.

Technically seen my mother, sister and I are seen as allochtonen.
Allochtoon (plural: allochtonen) is a Dutch word (derived from
Greek ἀλλος (allos), other, and χθον (chthon) earth/land),
literally meaning "originating from another country".
It is the opposite of the word autochtoon (in English,
"autochthonous" or "autochthone"; derived from Greek αυτο
(auto), self) literally meaning "originating from this country".
My sister and I are second-generation allochtoon, a person born in the
Netherlands with at least one parent born in a foreign country.
When both parents are born abroad, the 'country of origin' is taken
to be that of the mother. If one parent was born in the Netherlands,
the 'country of origin' the other parent's country of birth.

I always considered myself as being Autochtoon, because I considered
myself as white, European, Dutch, and carrier of the Dutch passport.
Only recently I found out that I am actually an allochtoon, which means
not 100% (ethnically) Dutch according to Dutch law, because not both
of my parents are ethnically Dutch.

Everybody who knows the Dutch situation or the Belgian (Flemish)
situation, knows that in every day life, in the media the word allochtoon
is often used in degrading terms. Allochtoon means allien, foreign,
strange, unskilled, people who speak broken Dutch.
In articles, essays, speeches of officials, interviews, programs in the
written and audio-visual media the expression allochtoon or
allochtonen (plural) is often linked to crime, vandalism, foreign youth
terrorising neighbourhoods, poor education, unemployment and etc.
So, you can imagine it's great to be an allochtoon! ;D

The funny or strange fact or situation is that I live in a Autochtoon,
monocultural community, because most of my family, friends and
colleages are Autochtoon (ethnically Dutch), and that most Autochtonen
(plural) and allochtonen (plural) consider me to be ethnical Dutch
in Autochtonen sense, but that I am in fact allochtoon.
I consider myself by culture, language, feeling autochtoon, but
social and emotional allochtoon. It's something you speak rarely
about with friends, colleages and strangers.

Other allochtonen are recognizable because of the color of their skin,
differant racial looks (Arabs, Berbers, Turks and some Slavs),
their havey foreign accent (Poles, who otherwise are as white and
European as the Dutch - blue and brown eyes, blond, brunette and
red hair-). Do colored and Muslim compatriots face some discrimination
and xenephobia, the Central- and eastern Europeans face the same
problems. People from the east are considered as a threat by locals,
and the old stereotype of car- and bike thieves stil exists.
Next to that you have the cold war stereotype of poor, uneducated
and anti-semite Poles. That will take years or decades to overcome.
That Poland is a sophisticated and developped New European country
with an old culture, literature and scientific tradition is not yet
generally known over here.

It was and is often a tough job to fight these stereotypes and
xenophobic fears of the people of the east, those "fundementalist
Catholics", "those reactionairy Nationalists", "gay bashers",
"those simple peasents and drunken workers", "Germans and
Russians haters", and these people with a Communist heritage
and Communist mentality, who got anti-semitism from the
mothers breast (milk). Ofcourse I exaggerate, but there is a kind
of truth in this stereotypical portray of the Western-European view
of Poland and Poles in particular, and Central- and Eastern European
people and countries in general.
Sometimes I felt like belonging to a tiny tiny minority of half-Polish
people who fight a losing battle. Over and over again trying!
And in the same time looking fair and critical towards Poland from
personal experiances and following Polish discussions between Poles
in English, German and Dutch.

What are you when you are half-Polish, but never grew up in Poland,
do not speak the language and when the lifeline between you and
the "mothercountry" is nearly cut through.
You are stil interested in the country, feel or aknowledge the blood
and family line, but are not rooted in the language, culture, social
life of a Polish exile community or Poland itself.
Can I understand what you people feel or desire in maintaining
Polish culture and language abroad. You people with two Polish
parents, or in the case of half-half (Jaga's Polish-German American
daughter), but with culture and language instruction?
In my opinion the physical connection is very important.
By going to Poland, experiancing it's history by looking at the landscapes,
seeing and experiancing the cities and villages, experiancing Polish life
in Poland, Poland and Poles get real, and are not a stereotypical cliché,
something far away in a history book, newspaper or magazine.

How do you people feel about this? Being abroad, being the child
of two or one Polish parent, or witgh no family connection but an
interest in Polish affairs (Karl, Kaima).

Pieter

[karl]

Hmm, Dear Pieter

I sense perhaps a moment in time of soul searching..If this is true, then it is very good and well. For many of us as mortals, must at moments in time, do this as a marker. For with this marker, then we know at that time, our place on earth as we relate to..

I was in the 1st, let not for my self to engage into, for I felt it was for only of Polish people, but, as progression of your presentation evolved, so now you have named also of my self, and that of Kai, so,,now what do I say?

As a person with the question of ethnic priority placed to..I must 1st provide some guide line. 1st, I carry a distinct difference in mind set: {What I think, is for the most part, not what I feel}

For my thinking is the result of my education/training and for the most part, my reaction to a out side stimulus. But,,,{my feeling is that of intrinsic of that only of my self} for this is not of education or that of my environment.

Within the confines of question you have poised of feelings as a child abroad {living in a country not of that of your own}.

My personal feelings are that of a war time child living not of my choice in Dänemark. I was frightened, felt vulnerable. My Auntie {Tante}was my protector, I stuck to her as of wet fly. But as the language in that area was not so different, I assimilated very quickly.

As a working adult: It matters not so much of the country abroad I work in. For each has within its self, situation as of climate/language/and all that is the make up of that country that is unique to only of that self. There are rules of conduct I must adhere to whilst in that land..

But,this is not that of your question you are seeking. For you require of answers.

I think it matters not of a persons parents of that land they have come from, to now the present land they live in. For they have done so in good faith and have proven this with the bearing of their children in the new land they have come to.

In-as-such, the children are of the land with all that they have inherited in privilege as of a citizen and protection of that nationality that is theirs to take.

The parents: They have made their choice, and it is theirs of the new land they have come to as they have for-saken the land they have left. In-as-such, the parents now with their citizenship they have taken an oath to keep, are now then the citizens of their new land and now are responsible to and for this new land.

For in this manner, they are no longer subject to their former land and there for, need not look back at the land they left. For in doing so, serves little purpose, but only creates confusion and self doubt.

We do have nationality laws that cover this, but I would respectfully decline to bring this in with my reply. For it would serve little purpose to this discussion. For the primary subject and concerns here is of Polish, and very well it should be.

I do hope with trust, that my in-put has not brought dis-satisfaction to others. I am only attempting with this approach, to answer of your questions in best I have to offer.

I think perhaps our old friend Leslie once placed this into prosective....{You are what your pass port says you are}.

Karl

[pieter]

Oct 26, 2008 8:34:02 GMT -7 karl said:

Hmm,

Within the confines of question you have poised of feelings as a child abroad {living in a country not of that of your own}.

Karl

Karl,

I agree with most of your sayings in your post except for these.
I was born and raised in the Netherlands. Born on januari 21th 1970 in the town Apeldoorn, North of Arnhem, in the province of Gelderland in the east of the Netherlands.
Because I was born in the Netherlands as a son of a Dutch Protestant father and a Polish Catholic mother, I was a Dutch citizen from the start. I lived in Arnhem for three months, after that my parensts moved to the city of Vlissingen in the South-West Island Walcheren in the province Zeeland (Sealand). I lived there for 20 years, Kindergarten, and got my primary and highschool education there. After that I went to Amsterdam and lived and studied there for two years (the second year in The Hague, traveling between the two cities).
In 1992 I left Amsterdam and my study in the Hague to study in Arnhem, where I live from then on. So I have lived in my country for 38 years. Poland was a country of vacations and cultural trips (2004 and 2006). Poland and Poles were alien to me as a child and teenager, because I did not understand the language and gthe culture was differant (and therefor exciting). I spoke German with older familymembers (my babcia, grandmother, and aunts and uncles) and English with younger familymembers and friends of my mother.

I am 100% Dutch and 0% Polish, by nationality and citizenship.
Only in my bloodline I am 50% Dutch (Germanic) and 50% Polish (Slav).
I am interested in Polish history, Polish culture, Polish arts, Polish music,
Polish literature and poetry, Polish cinema and Polish cuisine!
But due to the language and cultural gap and the fact that I visited the
country very seldom, I know little about it's political situation, about
it's media, about Polish society today and etc. That's because it's not my country!

I am Dutch like you are German! The only differance is the fact that both your
parents are German and that my parents have two differant ethnic and
national backgrounds. Today my mother has only a Dutch passport and
is fully integrated into the Dutch society. She is Dutch with a Mixed name;
A. Pluijgers-Kotowicz. My Babcia's family christian name is Pantoflinski.

I come from a global family or an international family with people in all parts
of the Netherlands (South-West, East, West and North), Poland, Belgium,
Denmark, France, Great-Britain, The USA (Wisconson-Milwaukee and
Illinois-Chicago) and South-Africa (my sister).

Pieter

[karl]

Pieter

Thank you for your very nice reply. I understand a great deal better now of your situation and feelings. For there is some thing inside of us that requires a satisfaction, of this we must seek as answers, and you are doing this...

Are you able to travel with your mother to Poland? Or perhaps my question is of a personal nature that is not polite?

I think perhaps my opinions are faulted for have not given enough thought and consideration to others as of your self, with feelings of their {yours} family background of the ethnic home land. For this I am very much at fault {sorry...}. I will try to learn this..

The one consolation thought though, with using English as a universal language, it is so handy for the problems presented by the language barrier. Often have also I used it {English} whilst in terms of Arabic and Russian as needed. As a person, I am not so very good in linguistics. And as of this moment, have been lacking in skills of Interpersonal Relations and empathic Understanding, for this I am very much remiss...

Pieter, I do have a suggestion, perhaps not so good as I do not full understand the entire situation that you may be under.

If possible, your mothers relatives in Poland, if they would be agreeable, for as example: Using Holiday time relative to not be imposing upon them, but to begin with them as their house hold as an extended family of yours. To begin your language and cultural training with them as the nucleus or central beginnings? Or/and, as a trade, for them to exchange with you on a similar proposition for them to learn your home land? For in this manner, would not be an embarrassment to either of you with the situation as a gain for both of you, they would learn to know your world, and in return, you would learn through them as loving family.

If perhaps I am singing in the wrong choir with the wrong book, I will understand.

These things are difficult in our world of work and situations that are not conductive to our personal feelings and needs.

Karl

[pieter]

Karl,

I have thought about the things you are saying. Contact Polish family. Exchange holidays.
Or just visit their city and take a hotel there.
The problem of my family is that we are not excessively fond of one's relations.
It's an adventurous family which is spread over the world like I wrote down above here.
We don't hate eachother and are not uninterested, but we are very differant from eachother.
The distance created some alienation, because we rarely see eachother.
My parents, sister and I are a very close family with good and warm connections to
eachother. My sister and American cousins live in an English speaking culture like you
do. My sister spoke s little bit Polish as a child. She was better in languages than I was.
My American Cousins speak Polish, because both their parents were Poles who
immigrated to America after the second world war. They are perfectly bilingual.

I am thinking about taking a Polish language summer course in the near future.

Pieter

[redneck]

Pieter,

You are an Individual. A wonderful one-of-a-kind human being that is a collection of physical and spiritual parts that can never be duplicated. Dont let laws or other groups define you. Only you can do that.

As for myself, I am Polish, Irish, and Native American. The truth is I am all of these things and none of these things. I am an Individual.

Tim

[karl]

Oct 26, 2008 20:55:42 GMT -7 @redneck said:

Pieter,

You are an Individual. A wonderful one-of-a-kind human being that is a collection of physical and spiritual parts that can never be duplicated. Dont let laws or other groups define you. Only you can do that.

As for myself, I am Polish, Irish, and Native American. The truth is I am all of these things and none of these things. I am an Individual.

Tim

Tim

I wish only to complement you on this most profound statement of wisdom you have shown to Pieter. For it was spoken from the heart with sensitivity and of truth.

Karl

[pieter]

Oct 26, 2008 20:55:42 GMT -7 @redneck said:

Pieter,

You are an Individual. A wonderful one-of-a-kind human being that is a collection of physical and spiritual parts that can never be duplicated. Dont let laws or other groups define you. Only you can do that.

As for myself, I am Polish, Irish, and Native American. The truth is I am all of these things and none of these things. I am an Individual.

Tim

Tim,

Thanks for you reply. I never let laws or other groups define me, but they are present in my country. I have always been a solist, not an outsider or outcast, but an individual who acted, felt and thought independently from a group, collective, party and even nationality.

In Europe I can look at the collective of the EU or continent from a Dutch, Polish or other European perspective, because I know the history, background and mentality of various European peoples. But I know the Dutch perspective the best, because I was raised here and lived, studied and worked in the Netherlands for 38 years now.

Dutchness is in my vains, thoughts, mentality, the good and bad habits I have. An Iraqi Kurd friend of my job (the radio) said the benefit of coming from differant cultures is that you have an open mind to the world and can understand complicated multi-cultural matters better than people with a mono-cultural background. I don't know if he is true, but I know you can have a broader perspective than someone who has only one country as background.

Can you see the Polish, Irish and native American elements in your outer appearance, in your mentality, character, taste, vision and feeling connected to? Or is there just one American Tim, who has nothing with Ireland, Poland and the Native American history and culture (Comanche, Apache or Navio tribes). For some period I had that scary tribal thing with Poland, idealizing and having a romantic view! Wanted to be part of Polishness, because that seemed stronger than Dutchness, because Dutchness is plural, cut in differant pieces of the minorities. Poles were one nation in my view. Individual, Family, extended family, tribe, people, race, the human race! How did I connect to my nation, to my continent and to the world. You have differant levels of being an individual. Being part of a family, being part of a social community (Faith group, subgroup, profession network, circle of friends), being part of a nation (Dutch Nationality, citizen of the Netherlands), being connected to a second nation (Poland. By blood, family, culture, history and memories), to a continent (Europe is the base,
the roots, the central place in the earth for me. Maybe egocentric, but for instance being abroad, I miss my continent. Being in the US or South-Africa is knowing how to feel European), being connected to the world as a world citizen ( I am 1/6,000,000,000 part of humanity). In international travels, in art and in cinema I often see the universal being of people that crosses borders. The Dutchness I will never loose and Polishness will always be a part of my identity. In the environment of my work I discovered two other half-Poles (half-Dutch and half-Polish), and they also have a strange mix of Dutchness and Polishness.
All the three of us do not speak Polish, but all the three of us are vulnerable for differant cultures and human connections.

Pieter

[tuftabis]

Hi Pieter, what you wrote in this thread is so interesting that I decided to respond. I thought at first I will not, in spite of the fact you have clearly asked for response. But the matters your talk about are deeply intimate and personal, that's why my inner resistance and fear that with some of my thoughts I might involuntarly hurt you, or that I may be directly attacked. But your consecutive beautiful posts, demonstrating how sensitive and thinking person you are, with a firm cultural background, convinced me to take part and convinced me you will not respond with personal attacks or boarish behaviour which seems to be a norm here with some other persons.

I will be very straightforward with you, but these are only my opinions and as Tim said they really don't matter- only what YOU think matters.
Pieter, from what you wrote your connection with Poland (the blood connection, as you say) in the factual layer does not differ from a connection of a Dutch autochtone which for some reason got interested in another country. The blood connection makes it somehow go futher and also into your subconsciousness, into the dark (but bright) side of the mind, into these parts of our personalities we all have reserved for the world of fantasy, dreams, fleeting but lingering feelings. There's something in that relation which reminds me a relation to a woman, a beautiful stranger from the same street that fascinates. Seen occasionally, sometimes so close that her lovely scent is felt, but she was never approached. Her ways, her good and bad sides are extrapolated from these behaviours that are seen on the street, while walking or being walked home, going out, meeting someone, quarelling with someone, laughing with someone. But not you. They are extrapolated from what some other people tell you about her, who are not always her friends, but sometimes are very bitter and jealous. Why don't you ever start to talk with her? Are you too shy? Not at all. You just don't know her language. She speaks the language which flows deeply in your mind, as you've probably heard it as a child, these is never forgotten, the melody, the soothing sound of babcias talk. But this language is foreign to you, and if the language is foreign so is the culture. But the fascinating woman is within your reach – to hold on to this example of mine, you can try to seduce her, or see if she will seduce you, you can start to learn her real virtues and shortcomings. You just have to learn that language. She won't talk to you in Dutch. And then you can on your own decide who is she and.. who are you. Why don't you do it? Either she is not that facinating for you or you are... too lazy.
Now is the most dangerous part. Pieter, I wish not to hurt you, but wish to be of help. For that I have to say bluntly. It was not your choice how you was raised, and you was raised as a Dutchman, which you are. That is perfectly okey, we all don't have influance on who we are raised as. You've had no influence that you have been deprived of one language which you could have spoken as well as Dutch – Polish in your case. Those who decided this way are not to be blamed today as none (not even you) are in a position to judge them today. But now it is your turn. Either you do something - which is learn Polish before your mind gets old and stiff, or you will let the this great and obviously unsettled matter pinch you for the rest of your life in addition to allochtone thing pinching you. Well, both will - even if you do learn Polish, but that it is your individual path and task you've been given by the Almighty and why not enjoy it But your situation will be totally different. You know it You know it all by yourself, don't you. And I needn't write this „letter from the unknown friend” at all...

You've mentioned Chopin. A good example to think about. He grew up in Poland, born from a Polish mother and French father who seeked refuge in liberal Poland. He was taught both languages from the childhood and practically grew up in as a bi-cultural person, which for instance means he felt equally at home while reading Polish literature as the French one. But Poland was an occupied country while Paris was a cultural capital of the world at that time. It was natural for an artist to go to France to continue his carriere. So why – with so strong French component in his personal life, he is called a Polish composer then? Because his creation came from the Polish roots. His inspiration was Polish folk music, landscape, culture, including the immensly strong sarmatian element. What is more important when we – awkwardly! try to define a person. It is for each of us to decide what is more important to us – our inner selves or the papers created by the bureaucrat or polizmeister minded people.
So I think your question 'how Polish can one be' which is as good as 'how Dutch can one be' will remain unanswered... forever. A question especially illogical in a country with so mixed people as modern Netherlands...

[pieter]

Tuftabis,

Thank you very much for your incredibly insighful and psychological clear answer in the form of a letter. It's interesting how you think, and how you judge my situation!
Why is it interesting. It's interesting, because it is determinist, psycho analytical and the thinking of a Polish intellectual who has the gift of the word and a clear mind.

You demystifies a myth of Polish romaticism and idealism in my mind and being, by bringing it back to realistic proportions. In that way you come into my innerworld, that exsists next to my daily practical and social Dutch life. I have a good circle of intimate Dutch friends and colleages,
who form my platonic close cirlce. These people are good in analysing me, giving me advise, criticizing me, be brothers and sisters, and ironic persona like in a Shakespearian play.
Buit they do not always understand the Polish soul of connection to Poland, beause it is far away (the large Germany lies in the way), an alien culture to them or just unknown to them.
My closest friends accept my closeness and interest to Polish matters and the fat that I talk about that every now and then. I live in a Duth reality however, in which next to Duth the British, American, Belgian (Flemish), German, and exotic cultures of the South are nearer than the cultures of the Centre and the East of Europe.

In my personal feeling my connection to Poland is a responsability of myself. I have Polish blood and historical ties to that country in the east of my country. Poland will not come to me so I will have to go to Poland. And I did. As a child in the seventees with my parents and sister to my grandparents (Babcia and Jadek, uncles and aunts, and cousins) in Poznan,
in the eightees as a teenager to Poznan and Warsaw in 1984, in 1988 to Poznan, and as an adult alone to Warsaw in 2006 and Krakow with a group of the Arnhem Art acadmy (my former school) in 2004 with a cultural and historical bustrip.
I know that I ambandoned Poland in the ninetees, because as a young adult I was interested in other things. In the ninetees I travelled through Europe (Belgium, Luxemburg, France, Italy, Switserland, Austria, Denmark, Czech republic and Hungary) and went to South-Africa and the United States (LA and Las Vegas in 1999). I don't know why I didn't visited Poland for so long, but I know that I kept reading about Poland in the ninetees. I gathered newspaperarticles, articles from magazines, essays, books (translated Polish literature), scientific publications about Poland from the Netherlands Institute of International Relations Clingendael and went to a Polish language course in a village next to Arnhem. The course was to difficult for me than, because the language, words, verbs, latin grammar and the pronounciation of the language was very complicated. My Mother helped me then. We trained some verbs, words and expressions. I am not a talent in languages! In highschool we Dutch have English, French and German. I could coap with English and German. German was difficult, beause of the grammar, even though German is close to Dutch. French was more difficult, because it is a roman (or latin) language. Polish is a slav language with a latin grammer (9 cases).
It's more difficult to learn a language as an adult than as child.

The Metaphor of Poland and Polish culture as a beautiful woman was good!
You put things into perspective when you state that my connection with Poland in the factual layer does not differ from a connection of a Dutch autochtone which for some reason got interested in another country. I have examples of this. Some Dutch autochtones I know have a stronger connection with Poland then I have, because they studied Polish language and culture, have a Polish girlfriend or wife or visit the country often. This is a tiny minority of the Dutch, but these people exsist! You are right in your remarkt therefor!

Tuftabis, my conclusion is this, first of all I am European. I have roots in two European countries. My practical life is in Holland. I have a romantic, emotional and yes sentimental
connection with Poland. I also have a pratical connection to Poland. That practical connection
is the bloodline. Relatives live in Poznan, Warsaw, Lodz and others. Many of them I don't know, some I have never met. My interest in Poland grew with the years!
Also practical is the fact that Poland is nearer to the Netherlands due to the fact that the political, social-economical, human and intellectual situation in Poland has changed.
During my grandparents time Poland was a People republic, a member of the Warsaw Pact and Comecon, and separated from us by the Iron curtain. Our post and phone conservations were checked, and we had two borders to cross to come to you! The West-German/East-German border and the DDR-Poland border. Nowadays I can drive to Poland without border checks, we have the same political and economical system, and many more young Poles speak English. And even some of them speak German and Dutch (a tiny minority also).
Poland looks more like Holland then ever before, thanks to an improved infrastructure, a shared Western culture, christian heritage (Roman-Catholicism), an European cultural heritage
(art, literature, poetry, music, cinema, computers, internet, communication means), and international attitude (both Poles and Dutch travel a lot, speak foreign languages, are active in trade and commercial activities), and European orientation (EU).

Pieter

[pieter]

Tuftabis,

Poland is more to me than just bloodlines, family connections, it's history, culture and as being an important part of Central Europe, Europe, the Eu and the world.
Poland is a bunch of important memories and experiances, is black and white and color photographs of the 20th century, photo's of Krakow (2004) and Warsaw (2006), driving many kilometres (or miles if you are American), is remembering countryroads, people who try to sell mushrooms along the highway, agrarian land, farms, the smell of the land, the people and animals on that land, the churches, the smell of coal and burning wood, mixed with the smell of plants, grass, trees and the Polish air.
Poland is a mix of very differant kind of people in one Slavic people or race. Like my mother said you have not one typical Pole. One Pole is blond and blue eyed like a Scandinavian, the other Brunette like a Bavarian or Austrain, the third dark (black eyes and hair) like an Italian, Armenian or Spaniard, the fourth redish like an Ire or English woman. The variety is big, also do influences of Bohemia, Ukraine, Germany and Italian (Renaissance). The Polish faith is typical Polish, the Polish branch of Roman Catholicism is differant than that of other nations who take their faith for granted or as a given fact.
Not like the secularised Czechs, Dutch or Belgians, not Calvinised or influenced by Lutheranianism and Baptism like in North-West Europe. We Dutch Catholics or not Roman-Catholics, But Dutch Calvinist-Catholics who say they are Roman-Catholics. The culture stayed (mass and etc.), but the role of the bible became stronger and more central.

Poland is also Old and New to me, a country with contrasts, the Old warsaw town and the New city around the Palace of Culture and the New built area's. Krakows old centre with Wawel and Kazimierz and it's new Business park and ICT-research centres in the peryprhery of the city. The huge new highways, in a mix of Modern French and German highways, and the old Peoples republic concrete roads. The former state hotels of Orbis, the Sam which disappeared (the state supermarkets), the bar mledzny (where you could buy delicious cheesecake with a cup of coffee or tea), the beautiful elegant Polish girls and young women in the streets, café's, bars, restaurants, cinema's, parks, riverbanks (of the Wisla). The couples that were in love in the Krakow parks and along the green grass of the river bank of again the Wisla in Krakow. We Dutch, German and former Polish students from Arnhem
looked with amazement at the romantic nature of the Poles of that city and their courtesy and politeness (younger people towards older people, men towards women. We said to eachother that our countrymen could learn something from that. Place don't change we thought and said that! Keep that sort of Polishness or whatever that is and don't
import our rude- or bluntness, our empty materialism, our fixation on consumerism, financial-economical affairs, hedonism and decadence. We liked the in our view old fashionate decency, moral, subtility in social matters, refined and sensitive behavior of these people. Yes, we saw rude drunken people, aggression, Lonsdale white trash, Neo-Nazi skin and Hooligans too. We saw poor people and frustration of beggars and homeless too.
But it did not dominate like in Berlin, France, Amsterdam or other Western cities full of grafitti, broken windows of busstops, and fear of civilians of youth gangs of compatriots and foreigners. Poland imported Hooliganism, Skinheads, Western decadence, Capitalism and NATO. But it kept itself in the same time. It did not throw away it's traditions, customs, values, ethics, moral, Polish way of doing things.

Things are rooted in a language (Hermeneutics), the sociology of the people of a nation, the position in laying inbetween the Russian, Ukranian, Baltic, Slovak, Czech, German and Scandinavian people with an influence of Americanand Israeli people (diplomacy, trade, tourism, educational and scientific exchange, technological and militairy connections). To understand Poland psychologically is to understand that it lies between Russia
and Germany. And the historical tension makes the character and personality fo the Poles, in it's individualist, freedomloving mentality (which came out of resistance, an independance movement), and in the travel mind of the Poles. The Poles are the traders, workers, intellectuals, priests and diplomats of Europe.
They are developping themselves incredibly fast, faster than other European nations of the in Rumsfelt words old Europe (Western-Europe). New infrastructure, new companies, new businesses, new technology (ICT), new languages (English, French and Spanish instaid of only German and Russian).The new generation of Poles has an open mind to the world. I hope that they can take the good things from home and merge that with the good things they took from abroad.

Poland is in my vains, blood, memories, interest and mind!

Pieter

[pieter]

Also part of the Polish memories is the Polish food. Chrzan on your bread with ham and other meat, bigos, Noodles, and Pierogi. Next to that I ate Chłodnik and barszcz in Poland and Holland, because my mother made it quite regulary in my childhood and teenage years. Like I already stated above here is that the only communist thing I like is the bar mleczny. Other things I liked in Communist Poland were the kotlet schabowy, the large use of Mushrooms (the Chanterelle; Pieprznik jadalny in Polish). I remember people picking them
in the woods. Familymembers staying at the white family villa (Chata) in Wilga went with us kids to search for the mushrooms. It was fun and a healthy experiance, next to the fishing.

it was cheap for us Westerners to eat in Polish restaurants, both the ones in the Orbis state hotels (where you had to wait a long time) or the smaller traditional Polish ones in the old city centres of Poznan or Warsaw. But the nicest thing was to eat diner at my grandmothers home in Poznan, because she was an exellent cook and liked to cook for large groups of family and friends. She made the best Duck I have ever eaten. Important also was that the dinertable and room was always very fine dressed.
The diners had an oldfashionate stile, esthetics and atmosphere, because in the building (appartment block) my grandparents lived there was an atmosphere which was a mix of the 19th century, the first half of the 20th century, the war years and the fiftees and sixtees.
My grandparents had a very old fashionate, tiny TV of the fiftees and an oldfashionate radio.
In the Apparmentblock every family, couple of single had one room. The Kitchen and bathroom was shared, and the basement too! My grandmother did not have a refrigerator, but a cool room next to the kitchen, with compote bottles, conserves and other things.
Their building had a special smell and atmospher which will stay with me for the rest of my life, it was like being in a Polish or Hungarian movie about the war. Cosy but oldfashionate!
I think in New Poland this has disappeared. At the other side of the crossing the street continued and became a Gypsy Getto.

I remember the day and night traffic of Poznan, inside and outside Poland known as centre of trade and international gatherings, congresses and markets, the bussy railways nearby, the sound of the tram and busses, trucks and cars, the sound of a city.

People had their professional lives, kids went to school like in the West, high school, universities, but unlike in my country you saw the Militia everywhere, the grey blue uniforms, the Militia vehicles, the Lada or Polski fiat and Polonez Police cars. And I remember that I soldiers everywehre next to the militia, the same uniforms, but then in grey green.
The cinema was very cheap and easy to go to for us kids, and we loved the little Poznan Zoo,
with the old elephant, black panther (who tried to grab me) and the other animals.
We liked to walk to our Cousin Joasja Kalinowska, her parents and little sister who lived
in another part of town. Most contacts were with the Pantoflinski (aunts had other names,
the names of their husbants I can't remember) aunts and uncles.
We liked the old town of Poznan with it's old buildings, churches and Market place,
where the art galeries were, where the Poznan Museums were.

I just liked to just walk through the city boulevards, the streets and squares,
the see the squirrels, the wild city cats that lived in scenic courtyards, alley's,
old streets and gathered near collections of waste containers.
I was always scared when I had to throw something away at the back of
my babcia's kitchen, because the large dirty white cats were large and mean.
Thank god I never was scratched or bitten by these creatures, they were
totally differant than the normal housecats most of us now.
I did not know if they were merged with wilde cats, but they sure were
bigger than normal cats.

Poland was for us like a ferrytale or and adventure, because everything was
different from our town in Holland. The people, the buildings, houses,
streets, cars, mentality, language and culture.
As a kid you can communicate with hand and feet, and use little letters
or signs. Both of my grandparents were very decent, fine and humoristic
people, who could get along with their grandchildren.
Unfortunately my grandfather, Josef Kotowicz died in 1976 when a drunken
driver killed him at a zebra crossing. I was six years old. My grandmother
died in 1987, she was 86 years old. After that the uncles and aunts died
too. Only my cousins, Joasja and her little sister (both adults now) stayed.
My mother has some friends in Poznan and Warsaw. She writes and phones
with them. The last time my parents were in Poland, Warsaw was in 1998.

Pieter

[dbkaczor]

both my parents are polish. both sets of grandparents are polish born in america. thier parents came from poland. so i have been exposed to polish customs. i have always felt a strong connection and love for the catholic religion even tho both my parents are not religious. 15 days ago, for the first time, i was in poland for 8 days. it was a wonderful experience and i felt at home there. i had waited a very long time to go to the home of my great grandparents so when i arrived in warsaw and set foot on the ground it was very emotional for me. the polish people were warm and i thoroughly enjoyed engaging in conversation with the limited amount of polish i know. i cant wait to return.

[kaima]

Pieter,

I feel flattered that you ask my opinion or experience. I have tried three times before to sit down and answer, as it should be a thoughtful answer as you have received from others. However, I am throughly distracted by selling my house & finding a new place to live within a month. My mind is so full of the many things that must be attended to that I cannot sit and give it the attention it deserves.

Coming from a land of immigrants, the USA my experience cannot be that unique, but it is unusual. Some today rant against the right of babies born in the US of non-citizens to automatically be citizens, but 95 years ago this is how my father became a citizen. His parents were visiting the US, working legally & returned to (then Hungary) Slovakia to buy a farm and live their lives. Dad returned to the US later in the 1920's, not speaking a word of English but as a natural born US citizen. He found a good Slovak-American girl to marry and we say "the rest is history". Dad left his European born sisters and brother, so our blood ties are close. On my mother's side, she had first cousins in Slovakia.

Of the four of us children I am the only one to have any interest in the old land and the family, and that interest was from my youngest childhood on. As a child I would have happily gone to Slovakia and spent the summer, but it was economically and politically impossible.

Decades later my interest continues, with me traveling back and forth and keeping contact, and I feel I have made a difference in the lives of aunts and cousins with those visits. My siblings sometimes have a passing interest but are fully involved in everyday life and pay only passing interest to our ethnicity, except for enjoying some of the traditions and foods; thinking of the foods we grew up with, it gives spirit to the US Black concept of "soul food". There is a comfort and warmth to these foods that doesn't come from even a very good daily meal.

For the next generation the question of ethnicity seems quite academic and perhaps even more remote. They are simply American and have little interest in the past. The visit of the young Slovak cousins this summer did not change things, as the kids left behind an "Ugly Slovak" image, understandable in the context of the "Ugly American" image that is more often spoken of.

Well, I still have two aunts in the range of 90 years old, and hope to get over to visit again this winter. My plan is to enjoy the international relationships to the fullest in my lifetime, perhaps leave a thread of contacts for any following generation interested in following on, and get on with life.

Culturally, if our lives are likened to a pot of stew with many ingredients, my feeling is that the ethnic ties add a special spice to that stew and give it a zest that is missing from the common.

Kai

[pieter]

Dbkaczor and Kaima,

I read both of your statements about your familybackground and personal situations. How differant life stories can be, the both of you and mine. But the core of the thing is that we share a human soul, mind and spirit. All three of us are connected to that regional Slavian peoples thing in a region close to eachother.

Dbkaczor, for you it is clear you are Polish-American, your great-great-grandparents were Polish Poles, your grandparents apparently came from a Polish-American environment, your parents too, and you inherited that. It's wonderful that you have set foot on the Polish soil you ancesters came from and where the special branch of Catholicism exsists, the Polish Roman Catholic faith, which is in the same time national and international. Why? Because it's core is in Poland, but Polish masses are in Holland, Germany, France, Ireland, Great-Britain and America too! What is your strong connection and love for the catholic religion even though both your parents are do not practice faith? Is it you personal faith, the tradition, the
spirituality of Catholicism or and the cultural and social aspect of that faith?
Just curious, because I was raised with Catholicism in my youth, in Holland, Belgium and Poland (the places where I experianced it). I have something with Catholicism, because i was/am part of the community, part of the rituals, the roots and the social aspect of that faith. You share a background with other Catholics, because you are raised that way (even though my father was protestant, we went to the Catholic church, never to the Protestant).
When I was a teenager and adult I went several times to a Protestant service, and it was both strange and familiar, because a church is a church and the bible is the bible.
The differance between Poland and Holland is that Poland is a mono-faith country and Holland
is a Multi-Faith country like the US. That's why the Catholic faith is more dominant in Poland.
I hope that you will return more often to Poland, maybe find some relatives or make new
friends there. Poland is a country to come back to! I liked it every time I was there!

Kaima,
Slovakia or Hungary is close to Poland and in my view part of that same Central-European
culture, atmosphere, and linguistic very near. Here in my town I see often Poles and Slovaks
who work here and sometimes I mistake a Slovak individual or car for a Polish individual or
car. I see it when I watch more carefully and hear the differance, when two Slovaks speak
to eachother and when I see the numberplates, PL or SK.
Poland and Slovakia share the Tatra Mountains and the Goral people who live on both sides
of the border. You also had the luck or speciality that your parents were both ethnic Slovak,
and therefor you was raised in a sort of Slovak-American fashion.
It's interesting how you speak pedagogical and sociological about the changing attitude
towards the ethnic culture, in the passing time of generations.
I witnessed that the Polish-American children of my Cousins in Chicago and Milwaukee are
less "Polish" minded than my cousins, because they lack the connection with the
"motherland" and in the case of my cousins "Mother"- and "Fatherland", because my cousins parents were both born an raised in Poland before they moved to the USA. So my cousins Ewa and Mulisa were raised in a Polish speaking household in Chicago,
and therefor perfect bilingual people.

There is a great differance between two parents who have the same ethnicity and
two parents with differant ethnic and religious backgrounds. I was raised with the
values of a liberal Dutch protestant faith, which was not practised in my parents
home, but present in the background as a moral, ethical and social component
of my upbringing, and the dominant presence of my mothers faith, by our connection
to the Dutch Roman-Catholic church. We did not went to Polish-services, because
my mother choose for her new country and wanted to be part of the Duthc church.
In Poland however we went to the Polish mass of the Dominican church in Poznan,
where my babcia (grandmother) went every sunday (if she was not in the US or
Holland/Belgium, visiting her daughters). Polish mass was differant than the Dutch
mass. The Dutch mass was more sober (remember the Dutch Calvinist influence
on Dutch Catholicism), more bible oriented. Polish mass was a rich celebration,
with stories and speeches of priests and monks, beautiful Gregorian singing
Polish monks, and the mysticism of the Polish faith (in my spriritual eyes).
My proof today is that Poland is one of the core Catholic spiritual places in Europe
today, in which secularisation, abandoned and demolished churches is the
practice or reality.

Pieter