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Post by tuftabis on Nov 9, 2008 7:42:31 GMT -7
As a teacher of a foreign language, I must turn down this view. Children, when addressed in two languages by their mixed-nationality parents, acquire both without any difficulty and become bilingual and bicultural. Being bilingual has a very positive influence on them and the perfect knowledge of two languages may help them in their career later on. Bonobo, thanks for saying this as a proessional. But I am afraid the knowledge you provide will bounce off like a ball from a wall confronted with the prejudice and xenophobia... |
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Post by karl on Nov 9, 2008 11:42:56 GMT -7
As a teacher of a foreign language, I must turn down this view. Children, when addressed in two languages by their mixed-nationality parents, acquire both without any difficulty and become bilingual and bicultural. Being bilingual has a very positive influence on them and the perfect knowledge of two languages may help them in their career later on. Bonobo, thanks for saying this as a proessional. But I am afraid the knowledge you provide will bounce off like a ball from a wall confronted with the prejudice and xenophobia... Tufta and Pawian {Bonobo} Well it would so seem you two fellows are of very predictable, more or less of the tea kettle calling for the pot when the heat is turned up, but so be it.. Pawian {bonobo} is correct in his academic view points. But wrong in the reality of life. Now before you both become involved in your hurt ego returns. The following is reality as life is exactly: The situation is of follows: We have here, two people of a broken marriage: Both have failed to honour their marriage vows and as such, have broken them leaving a child of this former union of man and wife. Now what? Our laws of marriage and divorce are very specific as indicated as of a previous post I have presented for information. Please do read, ok? For our laws of marriage and divorce are specific, they will not cover all aspects of lifes little situations, and as such, we do have our courts to deal in this. But, as in this, our courts do not have specific instructions to deal with all as contingencies that will arrive in all lifes situations. And then as so, there are some agencies that will take these matters in hand and take action. As a person, I am not so comfortable with this, but we must deal with what we have at hand and make it work. Tufta and Pawian known as {Bonobo}. I realize you both are of Academia and so be it. I am of reality of life. And of so, we will of natural, have our disagreements and what ever so be. But, I am not your enemy. Yes, I know what the meaning of divorce and our laws, yes. I have been divorced of 2 occasions. You have no realization of the concept of divorce, I will guarantee to you for sure, until you experience the occasion. But, I know, and I know what I say, and this for sure. But I think perhaps this is not of the obvious. But more so as of bruising of your Polish ego and pride. For your self and that of Pawian {also known as-Bonobo} look beyond your academic campus life into the world of reality. Karl |
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Post by pieter on Nov 9, 2008 11:48:31 GMT -7
Tuftabis,
I have watched the movie and has to say that th bureaucratic and social power of the Jugendamt goes very far. And I have to say that it looks like an excess of the German law and the Trias Politica of that state. The international development is that many societies become multi-cultural while in contrast to that the political climate, atmosphere and systems in many Western-European countries is incresingly Monocultural. As you put it rightly towards Pawian you have a trend or the existance of Xenophobia and discrimination. There is not much respect for or appreciation for foreign languages in many countries, and there is an atmopshere of pressure to integrate and assimilate.
Germany is a more strict country than my country in this. But this video example is very fargoing, an unacceptable interfearance in private lives of families and homes.
In the case of two people who divorce I can understand that the organisation will chose for the parent who is most capable of caring, and that the insitution will put the actual situation of the child which lives in Germany as a German case. The child lives in Germany and goes to school in Germany. It's future lies in Germany. But when the child speaks and writes in German and uses Polish as a second language in it's private and family life is the choice of the child and it's parents. The Jugendamt goes to far when it goes into the private lives of families in Germany and decides that German is the only language, and when they put a child of two Polish parents in a German foster parents home.
What I found a minor point of the Polish documentry was the fact that I did not hear
the German side of the story. No German parents or Foster parents, no German
lawjer, no German politician or expert in Jugendamt cases.
Pieter
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Post by tuftabis on Nov 9, 2008 13:25:21 GMT -7
Pieter, once again I'd like to thank you very much indeed for watching and presenting the situation from your side, and your opinions. That was the main reason I brought this subject into this forum, to see the Dutch side  Please note however the German side of the story was presented, by both the Jugendamt spokesman and by the Jugendamt clerk denying that they ever prohibited the usuge of Polish language (by a half-Polish and half-German child, with a Polish parent). What was not presented inthe footage is the voice of reason and indagnation at the actions of Jugendamt by some of the German lawyers - these are however widely presented in the local media as well. To sum up - the dicrimination will be soon stopped, no matter if the old-timers like it or not  Thanks again and take care. |
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 9, 2008 14:58:38 GMT -7
Tufta and Pawian {Bonobo} Well it would so seem you two fellows are of very predictable, more or less of the tea kettle calling for the pot when the heat is turned up, but so be it.. That`s because we are men. If we were women, we would seem more unpredictable..... ;D ;D ;D ;D Indeed, I may be wrong of reality of life in Germany. Fortunately, I have never been forced to speak German to my children. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Yes, I did read them thoroughly, I entered the site about divorce you provided and looked for the rule which obliges foreign parents to speak German to their children, but I couldn`t find it.... Yes, they are very specific, indeed. ;D ;D ;D ;D Yes, the problem is that officials who work in these agencies usurp too much power for themselves and in result cause a lot of tragic situations involving children. We must deal with it in the sense that the foreign parents` complaint has been lodged to the European Committee and the problem is or will be investigated.... Neither are we your enemies. ;D ;D We are so relaxed we don`t consider anybody our enemy..... I can understand that a divorce is a very stressful experience for people involved. Why then do German Jugendamt officials make it even more stressful? Not pride. Just my personal feelings of compassion and sympathy for the parents of any nationality, not only Polish, who have been deprived of their children by German beaurocrats. The reality is not eternal, Karl. It can be changed, and in case of mixed nationality kids in Germany, should be changed because it is nasty. |
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Post by pieter on Nov 9, 2008 15:17:30 GMT -7
Tuftabis, Unfortunately I don't know a lot about German youth care nor do I know much about the Dutch situation. Because I do not have children myself, I am not much involved with things that have to do with children, accept visiting friends in Arnhem and Amsterdam who do have kids. But most of my friends are single too. Yes, I guess lifestile or walk of life matches with lifestile and walk of life in the chosing of friends. I searched the Dutch and Flemish internetpages, and am bussy searching the French and German ones to find some info on the subject. And I found something interesting: Richtly ciritizim on new approach Youthcare Holland Childombudsman (Velp Gld) 24 sep 2008 The Dutch Youth Care acts like the German Jugendamt: to take away children from their parents house and put them in Foster parents home without logical reasons. There are rightfully protests against that in the Netherlands. So let's be solidarian with the protest against this abusive situations. Since the tragic death of Savanna a lot has changed at Jeugdzorg (Youth Care). Children are removed from their parents home much more faster, last year 3000 more than in the previous years. Experts however doubt this new approach. Acoording to them worden children today in a sort of over-reaction are taken away to quickly fro their homes. We follow a family who had removed in the past period two times their children. So let's by solidarian with the protest against this abusive situations. . National Protestday in The Hague on friday october 26 2007 12.00 'o clock With a lot of thanks to Dr. Nico Mul J.Aalders Kinderombudsman 24-09-08 | 07:55 Door Kinderombudsman | Velp (GLD) Terechte kritiek op nieuwe aanpak Jeugdzorg Links: Dutch journalist asks, does the approach of the Dutch Jugendamt not looks like children trade. Dr. Nico Mul responds with saying " It looks like that, especially now a functionairy of the Dutch Jugendamt was promised a child that was removed from it's parents home". It looks like a horror scenario. Nico Mul says " where are we going in this country?" nl.youtube.com/watch?v=y-NRN5Cl1sA |
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Post by pieter on Nov 9, 2008 15:44:37 GMT -7
The story of a GermanThe system of child abuse in Germany. The evil face of " child protection" organisations and the helpers around them. Child abduction is a business. All the organisations trading children earn 21 billion per year in Germany. How much do they earn in other countries? If this is stopped would our market collapse? Does Germany need this market to be able to go ahead? Every crime investigator knows: " Ask for the money and you will find the criminals." My heart is little bit in the 70s. I am strong, saw a lot in my life, fighting for human rights, struggeling for justice and truth. In former times I worked in the field of research, politics (was a party candidate for regional elections in Baden-Württemberg, Germany), worked in a embassy in Berlin (looked a litte bit " behind the curtain"). My family became victims of the governmental child abuse. Cause of the stress they made me and my family I became ill (head tumor). I am now fighting against an invisible enemy - cancer. I started to learn a lot about human medicine, natural medicine - with success. I have now the opputunity to win the fight - without any doctors. Today I am family manager with a lot knowledge in the field of gifted children. My hope and my richness is the love of my family. I am in my centre. My future - is in god´s hands. Country: Germany Profession: Dipl. Economic Correspondant Schools: private, learning my whole life Companies: a lot, also worked in an embassy nl.youtube.com/watch?v=3F28BzmK-4I
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Post by pieter on Nov 9, 2008 16:06:04 GMT -7
When a state abuses it's power (In German) Wenn der Staat seine Macht missbraucht nl.youtube.com/watch?v=farOsb27_Kk&feature=relatedGerman Press conference about the Polish cases of the Jugendamt nl.youtube.com/watch?v=AeELQXKVWF8&feature=relatedA German reaction:Vielen Dank! Thanks a lot! Bisher hatte ich diese Frau geschätzt, doch jetzt, da ich meiner Wahrnehmung noch trauen kann, bin ich entsetzt! Until now I had respect for this woman, but now, because I can trust my judgement, I am shocked! Hiermit entschuldige ich mich aufrichtig bei Allen, die mich gewarnt hatten. In this way I say sorry to all those, who warned me. Wenn die Kameras laufen....., ja; dann sind sie perfekt..... When the camera's shoot....., yeas, then they are perfect... Solch eine Arroganz und solch ein ordinäres Lachen, hätte ich solch einer Person bei weitem nicht zugtraut. Such an arrogance and such a vulgar laugh, I did not expect that from such a person. Die nächste Wahl bekommt diese Partei meine Stimme nicht!!!!! The next elections this party will not get my vote!!!!!! |
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Post by pieter on Nov 9, 2008 16:16:47 GMT -7
Polish message in German of the Polish Foundation (in Germany)
Polnischer Verein
Eltern gegen die Diskriminierung der Kinder
(Parents against the discriminization of children)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seit dem Jahr 2000, 55 Jahre nach dem Ende des 2. Weltkrieges werden für polnische Kinder in Deutschland wieder Polnischverbote eingeführt.
Diese erneuten Verbote wurden zuerst injiziert durch das Jugendamt Gütersloh und Amtsgericht Gütersloh.
Dort wurde das 1. Mal in der Weltgeschichte durch die Richterin Krämer in dem revolutionären Beschuss 16 F 77/00 die Notwendigkeit der Aussetzung der zweisprachigen (polnischen) Erziehung für einen minderjährigen polnischen Bürger – als deutsches Recht erkannt.
Dieser Beschluss über das Verbot der polnischen Sprache wurde später durch das Jugendamt Gütersloh für Jugendämter in Deutschland als Vorlage für die Legalisierung der Verbote der polnischen Sprache den polnischen Kindern in anderen Fällen wiedereingeführt. Durch die Politiker der Jugendämter.
Seit dem Jahr 2000 mehren sich radikale Straftaten mit Nazihintergrund.
Das Polnischverbot für polnische Kinder in Deutschland wird jedoch auch vom Bundesministerium der Justiz als angeblich gesetzeskonform präsentiert obwohl es wider das Grundgesetz ist und nur mit Nazihintergrund behaftet.
Das alles geschieht ohne Angabe des Gesetzes, welches einem Richter, den Jugendämtern und den Schulen so ein Polnischverbot aufzuerlegen, erlauben würde.
Polnischverbote sind immer noch gesetzeswidrig, egal ob es ein Richter oder andere als rechtsgültig behaupten.
Polnische Sprache ist eine der offiziellen Sprachen der EU, was den Vertretern des deutschen Volkes sehr wohl bekannt ist, trotzdem werden offizielle, amtliche Polnischverbote und die nationale Säuberung der polnischen Kinder durch Jugendamtpolitiker schleichend eingeführt. Dadurch wird ein Versuch unternommen, die Rolle der Jugendämter aus den Zeiten ihrer Entstehung zu reaktivieren.
Damals wurden in der Regie der Jugendämter 160 000 polnische Kinder nach Deutschland verschleppt, damit sie ihre leiblichen, polnischen Eltern nicht mehr sehen und kein Polnisch mehr sprechen.
Dies geschieht mit unseren Kindern auch. Hier und Heute.
Unter Mitwissenschaft von Herren Günter Nooke und Volker Beck.
Für den Polnischer Verein Eltern gegen die Diskriminierung der Kinder
Miros?aw Kraszewski
Arzt für Radiologie
Zoppenbrückstr. 29, 47138 Duisburg
oakraszewski@yahoo.de; Tel.: 0049 203 410 4125
Beata Pokrzeptowicz-Meyer
Vereidigte Dolmetscherin und Übersetzerin
Wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin der Universität Bielefeld
Schneiderstr. 2, 33613 Bielefeld
beata.pokrzeptowicz@uni-bielefeld.de Tel.: 0049 162 3393843
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Post by pieter on Nov 9, 2008 16:47:08 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Nov 9, 2008 16:52:26 GMT -7
The story of a French guy who lost his child due to German child abductionEnglish translation by Peter Tromp of the German report by Karin Jaeckel and lawyer Ingo Alberti on Olivier Karrer's arrest in Germany: Olivier Karrer was arrested last Sunday 21st of May at eight o'clock in the morning at Berlin Schöneberg airport. He was leaving for Basel, Switserland, when he was arrested. Exact details are not yet available, but according to first informations, he was arrested on an international warrant related to an issue dating back to his divorce 7 years ago. It is reported to be about a 4.000 Euro's fine charge or 80 days imprisonment instead. (If the fine is not paid, it is to be surplaced by 80 days of custody. Clear is that Olivier Karrer was not taken in preliminary custody but immediately was taken in executional custody instead. Because he was arrested on the basis of a " legally valid judgment", the responsible magistrate can now take his time for holding a first hearing. For that reason Olivier - after first having been taken into custody at the prison of the city of Brandenburg - was transferred last wednesday to the prison of the city of Frankfurt on the Oder (JVA) near the Polish border. Whether there are further accusational points, is not yet known. A lawyer was alarmed and has contacted him at the prison site. The French Embassy was also notified, but embassy personnel trying to contact Olivier at the prison of Brandenburg were denied all access to him. Karin Jaeckel English translation by Peter Tromp of the original French report by Sabine Vander Elst from Belgium on Olivier Karrer's arrest in Berlin, Germany: Sabine wrote: Hello, Olivier Karrer is a symbol standing for all of the numerous European parents who fell victim to parental child kidnappings by Germany. His son Julian is kept hostage in Germany since 7 years and this, without any valid reasons. The German judge, the German lawyers and the German Cafcass (the German court youth welfare authorities called Jugendamt) always have attempted and succeeded in preventing him from seeing or having any contact with his son. The German judge protected the German kidnapping parent. IN SECRET COURT PROCEEDINGS the German Court launched an arrest warrant against the victim parent and in a SECRET COURTORDER the German judge attributed all parental rights to the German kidnapping parent. Olivier and his family wish and demand to see and review his son freely in France, without the check of the German administrations. When will that ever be possible? Olivier and his son have the ACTIVE support of their country, France. Since last Sunday, Olivier was arrested by the German police and was judged and jailed by default. Without legitimation and explanation the criminal German courts have decided that this dad would do 80 days of prison time unless one offers them 4.000 Euro's in fines. Olivier needs support, in the form of letters, to let him know that he is not forgotten and that we think of him, as well as that he needs intelligent actions from our politicians. Your supporting mails to Olivier Karrer can be addressed to sosmaelisssabine@hotmail.com, I will see to it that your mails are forwarded to the network in Germany that supports Olivier Karrer. Thank you all, Sabine Vander Elst Source: jurlex-ouderschap-nl.blogspot.com/2006_05_01_archive.html
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Post by karl on Nov 10, 2008 6:54:57 GMT -7
Pawian Thank you for your interest in reply, also of your diligence in research of this very disturbing situation. Not so often, but to this was to bring of my self for further inquiry to our office, as of limited work traffic as of Sunday, we were to abuse our time for a project of this sort. Regrettably, I do not have the documents at present in English. But as substitute, I will provide in print with exact wording as provided of coverage of this situation in Child abuse. For as we both are knowledgeable in regards to the welfare of children being as we both are parents, we are cognoscente of the duties as prescribed by both requirements of that of Law and that of parental responsibilities. The following is English translation of our Basic Law{Grundgesetz, GG} that describes as constitutional law relating to the family. This is the legal foundation that all subsequent laws both Criminal and Civil must rest upon. Reference coverage of: Article 5/section 2 In of the case of children born out side of marriage: Article 6/section 2 www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/GG.htmWe as out side, do not know the precise situation as reported to us as observers. As a person of reason, I would not believe entirely of this case to rest solely upon an implied requirement of one foreign language to be pressed upon the child as the basis of the complaint to be addressed to child protection service. But I would believe this to be one of many constituent basis of complaint arriving from this broken home that is placed in question. In as so, once brought to the attention of Family Services, it is natural and a requirement that the off spring, for his/her protection, is removed from the home and then placed in care of one of many protection agency services available as in this case Jugendamt. For this would inself be under authority of The Civil Code: Artical 204/section 1666 under Temporary Provisions {page 575}. This is not a perfect translation from German to English, but we work with what we have. If clicken upon the out lined portion of the url, should bring to the site. If a problem should arrise, please indicate, and I will ensure of corrections. books.google.com/books?id=FGE2AAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA575&lpg=RA1-PA575&dq=german+civil+code+1666&source=bl&ots=JnR1-Hu8yH&sig=XNm9T25eUWxx4jaTkc_R0NRv21M&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PRA1-PA575,M1 Karl |
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Post by karl on Nov 10, 2008 8:11:14 GMT -7
Pieter
Thank you for bringing of this to the fore-front of presentation. It is rather some what of a surprise, but then not so surprising, other then this is of Polish families living in Germany. For usually this problem is with the Turkish and Muslim people.
I am not sure from the article if the effected people are German citizens or are not. Non-the-less, we have a problem that could be immanent.
As a person, I am surprised of any limitations enforced by the civil/family and or local court of authority to place an order against bilingual education. A requirement though for any child, is the knowledge to speak and understand our standard German language on or before to enter school. It simply makes sense, for if the child understands not of German, then for how is the child to learn?
With the increased numbers of foreign families locating in Germany, it becomes a public problem of to successfully integrate not only the adults, but that also of the children belonging to these families.
It then becomes incumbent upon the parents, to insure not only their own knowledge of the language of the land, but to insure that also of their children.
It is a requirement for citizenship that those of individuals shall have a working knowledge of German. If not so at time of testing, they are required to attend one of very many schools of language.
Very interesting our world today..
Be pleased with your world in America with out our problems...
Karl
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