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Post by Jaga on Jan 27, 2006 20:25:58 GMT -7
Today I watched Lou Dobbs news - in spite of the fact that the productivity in America is much better than 10, 20, 30 years ago, Americans have less vacations and work more - there is also lots of jobs - the jobs shifted greatly from manufacture to service (in the past the biggest employer was GM now it is... Wallmart) and the average salary is lower as well as the benefits.
what is going on in this society? Will we all have to equal to China because of the global market and the high CEO salaries?
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Post by kaima on Jan 27, 2006 21:00:13 GMT -7
There ws recentlyan article about a Ford motor pland that adapted a policy of only Ford vehicles parking in the parking lot near the manufacturing plant, including Ford daughters (Mazda, Saab..). Workers driving other vehicles must part across the street.
One worker stated that he found it unfair; that he had the right to purchase where he wished, and he had a better deal on a Chrysler.
Yes, he has the right. Yes, he is an idiot. If you carry his logic to the extreme, he is one of the reasons why we are competing with Chinese wages. So even for some workers the dollar is the bottom line. I wonder what they will think when we are earning Chinese wages!
When I was in the Baltics people wanted to buy everything western, even if the quality was poor or not much better than what they manufactred themselves. I encouraged them to buy locally produced items - to support local jobs. My influence was as strong as a raindrop in an ocean.
Kai
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piwo
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Post by piwo on Jan 27, 2006 21:50:43 GMT -7
We don't actually make anything here anymore, because in Mexico and China, you can pay next to nothing to have it built. It's not so much society, but our trade agreements that allow for unilateral dismemberment of our industry. Of course, lets be honest: Trade Unions don't help us either: their outrageous demands and wages make the simplest production process earn wages like a brain surgeon. We have Ford plants closing here, and their employees, who have been paid 90% of their salary for months to sit at home and watch Oprah, are now going to officially lose their jobs. And they will be paid for a long, long time to sit at home, watch Oprah, and when that runs out, go on unemployment. Yeah, no wonder our stuff costs so much.
Add to that a little corporate greed and scandal, and you have an economy that's in trouble. Not a pretty picture.
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Post by kaima on Jan 27, 2006 23:52:54 GMT -7
You are right, Piwo, but the disproportionate pay of the CEO's indicates a much bigger problem. We have turned into the materialistic, immoral society that the communists always accused us of being.
Everything is for me, me, me.
There is no outlook for the greater good of us, it is all money. American management has also proven themselves rather incompetent when they say they cannot accomplish cheap or quality products with American workers. The Japanese came over here and did just that - and at a good profit.
A good all-knowing major in the Air Force that I know said that it is all natural free-market and was foreseen over 20 years ago. What he could not answer was where we could get our weapons in time of war if we lose all industrial base.
So there are problems that will yet come into focus in the future. We live in interesting times!
Kai
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george
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Post by george on Jan 28, 2006 4:19:22 GMT -7
" Trade Unions don't help us either: their outrageous demands and wages make the simplest production process earn wages like a brain surgeon. We have Ford plants closing here, and their employees, who have been paid 90% of their salary for months to sit at home and watch Oprah, are now going to officially lose their jobs. And they will be paid for a long, long time to sit at home, watch Oprah, and when that runs out, go on unemployment. Yeah, no wonder our stuff costs so much.
Piwo...the example you just gave is in such of a minority its pathetic. First of all, there are hardly any industrial trade unions left in this country. The trade union benifits you just mentioned exist for probably less than 1 % of industrial workers in this country. Only the old line industrial trade unions get anything near what you just mentioned. And they are quickly dissapearing .
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Post by bescheid on Jan 28, 2006 9:15:26 GMT -7
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Post by Jaga on Jan 28, 2006 10:05:04 GMT -7
Piwo, this is exactly what my father in law and FoxNews see as the only problem in America's economy - trade unions What would Walesa say if he knew that some Americans blame labor unions for everything
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piwo
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Post by piwo on Jan 28, 2006 11:02:42 GMT -7
Of course, you pile on the trade union comment, but no comment on the fact that we don't produce anything here anymore, and why. Why are jobs being diverted overseas: cheaper labor. Trade agreements and high labor costs. I used the auto example because that's what's closest to me. Missouri builds lots of automobiles, and it's a big industry here, employing many, many thousands. When I hear the defiance of practically illiterate dropouts on the news, making almost $30 an hour for what they do, I want to spit. And by the by, I was in the teamsters union for 10 years, as well as an apprentice in the painters union for a time. I stand by comments. And Jaga, your contempt for FOX news is well documented, so I understand the shot . It doesn't fit, and I could really give a rats rear end what Lech Walesa would say. I'm interested in my own economy, but I'm sure we could all take lessons from Poland's booming economy Every side wishes to lay the blame on the other, and take no responsibility of their part. It's always of course the big bad corporations, their greed, blah blah blah, and that evil FOX news network. Or its always the Trade Union.. My post referenced trade agreements, trade unions, and corporate greed and scandal. I'll stand by my post.
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Post by kaima on Jan 28, 2006 11:21:49 GMT -7
Piwo, you are conveniently sticking to trade union yourself and ignoring the other arguments that were presented. You are attacking a very narrow component of the problem.
Kai
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Post by bescheid on Jan 28, 2006 17:51:06 GMT -7
well, it is just a matter of what do you want to do? Work, or let some one else do the work?
Charles
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piwo
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Post by piwo on Jan 28, 2006 22:54:58 GMT -7
Piwo, you are conveniently sticking to trade union yourself and ignoring the other arguments that were presented. You are attacking a very narrow component of the problem. Kai Respectfully kaima, I don't concur with that statement. We've clearly been on opposite sides of the political spectrum from the start, and I try not to let that overshadow all correspondence. Life's too short for that. I've said Trade Agreements (NAFTA etc.), trade unions, and greedy/corrupt corporations, and I've been consistent. I offered three reasons, yet it seems the "union" business is the only one that hits a nerve, that anyone wants to take umbrage with or anyone seems capable of seeing. Yourself, Jaga, George have only commented on my inclusion of the unions. I only elaborated on the trade unions in my second post to explain my position, which was challenged. I believe I've been the least polarized poster on this issue, able to see multiple reasons contributing to the problem. I accept your comments about management (and do site them in my post), but the issue is bigger then just that. If it wasn't, why would the Unions have been so against NAFTA? It's funny: the trade unions were bitterly against the NAFTA (as was I), so I find my self agreeing with the Unions, but still on the outs with the "union supporting" crowd here. I can't win even when I agree with Unions, which I don't care for! The saying is don't debate religion and politics with friends.. I think trade unions should be added to that list. All three are defended with equal zeal, equal blind faith, and the inability to consider any criticism as valid.
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Post by kaima on Jan 29, 2006 22:54:55 GMT -7
Piwo,
We will disagree. Reading your first post, you put great emphasis on unions and their negative side, though you do mention the other evils as well, but without emphasis. So you seem to deserve the commentary from the three of us.
Geez, we are on opposite sides of the political spectrum? Since I am a fiscal conservative, that must mean you support the wild spending and borrowing liberal in the White House. Well, I hope you are right. I would hate to see this country go down the drain because of his fiscal irresponsibility! Unions are only 10% to 15% of the US work force today. It is hard to imagine they have the strength to have such a bad influence on our nation as you say.
Even the trade unionists I know acknowledge a negative side. I have been fortunate as an engineer to avoid the politics and the trouble, but after reading history I think it is foolish for an individual worker to say "I want to deal with GM alone, on a one-to-one basis!" There is strength in numbers, and certainly business has the numbers of dollars and workers can only begin to challenge that when they unite. I also feel the Union of the United States has given us a strength that Europe even today can hardly dream of.
Aw, sex, politics and religion, great topics!
Kai
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piwo
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Post by piwo on Jan 30, 2006 21:13:48 GMT -7
Kaima, Then we will certainly disagree. Apparently you agree with everything but the Unions: so it's all greed and corporations. High labor costs here have nothing to do with loss of manufacturing jobs here. Now I understand completely. Someone here has tunnel vision, and it's not me. To each their own. As to your being a fiscal conservative, well, if you say it, it must be true. As this administration spends huge sums of money on the war and anti terror measures, it's easy to pile up spending. I'm sure FDR kept the country from spending additional dollars in WWll, certainly he didn't spend more then the previous administration. Whether you like the war, or anti terror measures, that's where the money's going. Wartime economies are a little notorious for that. When new liberal president gains the white house in the next election, we'll see who's a physical conservative then. Until then, GWB is the only game in town..
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Post by kaima on Jan 30, 2006 23:07:16 GMT -7
Ah Piwo,
You distort and deliberately misread, but at least you are consistent.
Any tunnel vision is displayed here for he audience to judge. I think yours reflects a streak of American tunnel vision that scares a good part of the world.
Another consistent fellow is your leader GW. He started with a surplus and cut taxes, went through the surplus and cut more. Then 911 came and he cut more while going to war on terrorism and cut again when he added daddy's nemesis to his list of reasons for war. I suppose when the "liberals†do get in to office we will have to raise taxes to pay for all of the fun we have today. I do come from a conservative area, and many fiscally conservative Republicans had a tough time swallowing GW's debt program. I just go along with them.
You are right, Piwo, but the disproportionate pay of the CEO's indicates a much bigger problem. Everything is for me, me, me. There is no outlook for the greater good of us, it is all money… The Dollar is God and we seek profit and not prophet.
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piwo
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Post by piwo on Jan 31, 2006 19:47:45 GMT -7
Kaima,
The subterfuge is all yours. You positively, unequivocally refuse to even acknowledge that trade unions have any effect what so ever on the issue, because that is the sacred liberal cow. One can't even mention them without feeling the backlash. Without the mindless votes of the trade union, there would be scant few democrats in office. The free "soft money volunteers" from the union halls that spend union money organizing bus tours to picket and lobby are unmatched by republicans or any other party.
You keep eluding to GWB, (and so I retort), but he managed to garner about 35% of the union vote this time, a record, and barely won. Trade unions and minority inner city vote is all the democratic party has, so I understand your staunch defense of them, for the same reason Dem's fought so hard to block the supreme court justices: liberalism cannot flourish without an activist court. Dems cannot survive without the faithful trade union vote. When even a little breaks away, disaster for them.
But once again, I've mislead no one. I mention an equation with three principle components, and you refuse to acknowledge one component because it is the sacred cow of liberal politics. Founded by communists, run by gangsters, and without it, the democratic party would be doomed. You're known by the company you keep. While I'm not for greedy CEO's, I'm not for greedy union baseball/football/basketball players either. They're one part of the equation. You've picked a side, won't consider any other possibility, so I think it's you who set a scary tunnel vision to the rest of the world. I work for a leading global financial institution in the world, and the amount of off-shore India outsourcing is staggering. We're not union, but essentially, the EU is nothing but a big union. A skeleton staff is kept in regional offices, but with the rules of that union, no business in their right mind will hire large numbers of employees. Why, well, when you let someone go, and have to pay them for 5-7 more years, it makes even large, lean companies think twice. How can one be a fiscal conservative, and not believe in a free market? So those sort of Union/government mandated rules are "free market" fiscally conservative??
I told you I mentioned the unions because the area I'm in is highly union. Well, was. Jobs are being lost by the 10's of thousands, and GM, Chrysler, Ford and Boeing. So yesterday, a story on the front page of the local paper had a headline: "Stick it to Ford, start your own business." For three years, Ford has been telling these people that this plant is going to close, and offered thousands of dollars per person in college or alternate trade schooling for these people so they would not be hurt when the doors shut. Only a handful even tried. The union will take care of them! Now, they need to "stick it to Ford" and get a job. If you can't see the hypocrisy in that, well....
Trade unions boast that they are the reason that even non union wages are so high, so they think they're effective anyway! Whether it's only 35% overall, some entire industries are union. Why you can't acknowledge that they are at least some part of the equation is "consistent' in your words. Liberalism can't admit such reality, for their very survival.
We can continue this dissertation on class warfare (from you perspective) as long as you like.: I'm game. Or we can walk away from it. Either way, stay warm, safe and in good health!
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