and
Bob and Charles,
My opinion is inbetween yours, as a person who has personally experianced
crime by Norhtern-african robers, and agression of Muslims in Duch trains,
and cities, I aggree with a lot of Bobs statements (most of them), and I heard them nearly exactly the same from Israeli and Jewish people I met via the internet (from right -Likud Holland- to far right -A national-religious ultra-orhtodox sephardi jew from New York).
And from their point of view I could undestand them, in their struggle for
life, their little nation, religion and people, who suffer a lot from many things
Bon mentioned. It is very hard for me to be open to the Muslim point of view, because it is very difficult to discuss with Trukish, Maroccan, Surinamese or Somalian Muslims in the Netherlands.
Their thruth is always the absolute thruth, and as non-Muslim your opinion doesn't count. I speak here from the vision fro the majority of Conservative or Orthodox (Puritinical) point of view.
Most Americans and Europeans do not understand Muslims at all, and know very little of islam. I have read quite a lot about Islam, Saoudi Arabia, Turkey, the Kurds, Marocco, the Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraque, Iran and Afghanistan, and spoke with a Duch photojournalist, who constantly goes to war area's (went recently to Afghanistan on patrol with American Marines in rough area's), and about the history of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. And stil I have to say that I know very little, because I am not a professional historian, haven't been in Muslimcountries and etc.
Many Westerners can't believe what prominent role faith plays in the life of a general Muslim, you can compare that with Orthodox-judaism.
The laws of society, the legal system, the state, the elected leaders and etc.
are nothing compared by their faith, their community and their duties and
obligations they have as Muslim. A serious Muslims life is devoted to G'd
(Allah) only, and he follows the Koran strictly.
In Muslim-communities and Muslimcountries there is no devidance between Mosque and state, like our devidance between church and state.
Islam penetrates everything in a Muslimenvironment, science, politics, ethics, education, uprbringing, philosophy, culture, art, economy and etc.
In the same time like most christians and Jews most Muslims don't or can't understand the totallity of their faith, and so use parts that fit in their community, family and personal life.
In the Arab or Muslimworld you have had and have secular, and moderate or liberal Muslims, like Turkey, Tunesia, Marocco, Lebanon and Libeya,
and in the West you have a growing group of secular or Moderate Muslims,
and Muslims who became christian (a lot of Iranians in Germany) or secular-humanists (the socialists, liberals, secular-conservatives, atheists, marxists
and communists from the Arab world, Persia -Iran-, and Turkey).
Maybe most Muslims are not Arab, hundreds of Milions of Muslims live in Pakistan, India and South-East-Asia (Indonesia -the biggest Muslimcountry in the world-, Malaysia, the Phillepines and Thailand) and Africa.
And Islam is present in the non-Muslim world as historical ethnic minorities
and immigrant minorities. Islam is everywhere and won't go away.
In my opinion the Islam must be reformed, and uses an enlightenment
adn Renaissance like the West had in the Middle ages.
The culture of Death, Islamism (political Islam) and extreme-Arab nationalism, mixed in the present Terrorism should be replaced by a Moderate relgious Islam, and the the politics should be secular as in the West. Politics and religion should always be seperated.
Charles,
There were German soldiers who wanted to get rid of Hitler, were resistance
fighters, jew-rescuerers and Conservative, Prussian, Nationalist ant-nazi's,
and guys who opposed Hitler, because of their christian faith (Bekenende Kirche; had Wehrmacht soldiers and officers under it's members).
This weekend I read a book from Anne Frank's girlfriend, and in that book about her life and Amsterdam during the war, she talks about an German SD(Sicherheits Dienst) member who was an informant of the Duch resistance. Even within the SS there were people who used their uniform to help the victims of the racist Nazi policy. There is little known about the German resistance, but I read the Weiße Rose, and saw the movie Sophie Scholl recently, a lot of this youngsters undergound resistance cell wear a Wehrmacht uniform. Unfortunately the German resistance within and outside the army did not manage to eliminate Hitler in the thirtees or fourtees. Two things I regret, first that the Social-democrats and Communists (SPD + KPD) did not unite themselves against the NSDAP
in 1933 (their hatred towards eachother was to big, and as a resulkt of that a lot of Communists -Rotfrontmitglieder- became Nazi), and that the Wehrmacht did not finish the SS in the thirties. I know that the Wehrmacht did not like the SS and that that was mutual (competition bewteen two powers that be). A conservative putsch of the Reichswehr against Hilter,
lead by the old conservative Prussian Generals and officers could have had a chance in the early thirties, if the Conservatives would have united with the
Democratic parties, SPD, Zentrum (Catholic) and Demokratische Partei.
Just some theses. In my opinion sometimes democratic elected governments should be thrown over when a majority choses the wrong direction, when the majority is blind or led by a dark force (like the Germans in 1933, who democrtically voted Hitlers NSDAP to power).
In the extreme mix of Arab nationalism, Islamism and Socialism in some of the Arab movements I see Nazi-like elements. Hamas and Hezbollah are
Fascist religious movements with a military wing (party militia like the SA),
and a political wing (like the NSDAP apparatus).
The far right Israeli or jewish colonists in the palestinian area's also behave like Militia, Kahanists, Hiltop youth, Moledet, Gush Emoniem and the Yesha-council,
www.jtf.org/index.htm. in their extremist Messianic Nationalism look fascist to. To my regret I have to say that I sometimes think we have learned nothing of the wars in the second century.
Hatred, fear, xenophobia, intolerance and etnocentrism are very alive
in Europe and the world. Everywhere people believe that their civilization is better and higher than the one of the others. There is no united humanity,
there is a devided, segregated humanity and world.
Pieter
Ahm! Hmm! Now it is my time to vent and stir the pot a little, Sooo.
