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Post by Jaga on Dec 3, 2008 22:43:07 GMT -7
Happy Birthday!
Wszystkiego najlepszego na urodziny
come to visit us!
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Post by Jaga on Dec 6, 2008 17:41:49 GMT -7
Zooba wrote to me that she left when it was so much infighting in the forum. But I hope she would come back. Just in case if you would like to contact her. Her e-mail is:
zooba@gazeta.pl
she promised to come back when she would have time
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Dec 7, 2008 6:42:00 GMT -7
Zooba wrote to me that she left when it was so much infighting in the forum. But I hope she would come back. Just in case if you would like to contact her. Her e-mail is: zooba@gazeta.pl she promised to come back when she would have time I don`t think it was only fighting. After having spent 3 years in different forums I know that people lose interest after some time for various reasons and it is unavoidable. Only the real maniacs stay.... |
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Post by pieter on Dec 7, 2008 7:30:26 GMT -7
I wrote this to Zooba:
Zooba,
We miss you at the old Proboards Polish culture Forum of Jaga.
For a long time now I have the opinion that I am more interested in the news and postings
from Polish Poles than Diaspora Poles (mainly the USA and Europe).
To Polish Poles I add Polish immigrants or students abroad who kept their Polish identity
and stayed in touch with the Polish reality in Poland as it actually is.
Why? I don't know exactly, but this is what I think it is!
I witness often that the contributions of the Polish Poles were of a highter quality and
more an insight view of Poland than some of the contributions of the other participants.
(Folks, this is ofcourse my subjective view)
I don't say that all of the Diaspora contributions are bad or less worthy, but very often
they are about things I am not interested in or things I know to little about, for instance
Northern-American affairs. I liked your contribution and and like the contributions of Pawian,
Tuftabis, and liked the contributions of Bunjo (Wojtek) and Aadam in the past.
Sometimes I had the idea that I am too European for a Polish-American Forum, but the
special flavor or mix of Poles and Polish-Americans kept me at the Forum.
I am typically an example of a person who was alienated from Poland as someone
who was in the frindge of the Polish Diaspora as being a half-Pole, who does not
speak Polish. I kept in touch with Poland by attending English language Polish
culture Forums and reading articles and essays about Polish politics, Polish
society and history and trying to see every tv documentry or show about Poland.
With a small and not very strong organised Polish diaspora in the Netherlands
it is hard to stay in touch with Poles and Poland.
Most of my Polish family has faded away in Poland due to aging and immigration (Holland, Denmark and the USA).
I have no contact with the relatives in Denmark and the connection with the Polish-American
family is a long-distance one!
In my view my only chance to reconnect the Polish connection is to learn Polish and
to continue to go to the country of my ancesters and friends of my mother.
Diaspora communities
Sometimes Diaspora communities have an old fashionate, conservative and nostalgic view of their old country. For instance the Dutch diaspora communities in the USA, Southern-America, South-Africa and other places often cherish and maintain the Duth culture and mentality of the time they left Holland. They often have old fashionate Dutch households, are conservative Protestant Christians or Catholics, in America often the rightwing of the Republican party.
Maybe the same thing is with the Polish diaspora the matter, that they have a 19th century,
pre-war (before 1939) or Polish Peoples republic view on things.
My mother told me about very Polish nationalist Polish-Americans in Chicago who
couldn't speak a word of Polish, bu twere the biggest fierce Polish Patriots you could
imagine. My mother was suprised about that and made some ironical and critical
comments about it. They are not Polish, but have a folklorist, sentimental, distorched
view about Poland. At least my cousins in Chicago and Milwaukee were brought uo by
two Polish speaking Polish parents who moved to America from Poland after the war.
They speak the language and visit Poland regulary, but they are Americans, English
speaking people with English speaking kids, who get Polish culture lessons as well,
but who are American kids in an American family.
Real Poles, Poles from Poland know the Polish situation the best, and are often
well educated, modern, used to the New Modern Poland of today, with it's
Modern Western and European democracy and economy.
Pieter
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Post by kaima on Dec 7, 2008 11:29:40 GMT -7
Pieter,
The views you express are very much what I observe as well, not just with Polish people at home and abroad, but with other cultures as well.
Most of the Polish-American contributions to this forum read very much as conservative American postings and have very, very little to do with Poland. They write as Americans who have little tie to modern Poland other than romanticized pictures of how Poland was/is/should be. For myself, I might guess 10% to 20% of my postings are Polish and European oriented, though my ties are as an ethnic 'southern neighbor' of Poland.
I very much enjoy your postings and agree that the quality of the European postings is very high and contributes great substance to this forum.
Thanks for your continued efforts. I am also happy to see Pawian participating once again!
Kai
PS. I have read that when the Roman civilization collapsed in the center (Rome) that it survived in outlying areas for a much longer time. The French spoken in Quebec is said to be the French that was spoken 300 years ago .... I would hope that Polonia would retain more of the genuine Polish culture, and a respect for the country as it has developed today.
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Post by kaima on Dec 7, 2008 11:37:14 GMT -7
Oh, I just glanced at a Slovak list I also participate in, and one of the people mentioned an earlier European Slovak participant / researcher / contributor well known for his high quality, professional contributions. He was driven from the board by American Slovaks who took great offense at his occasional observation that America was not always 100% ahead of Europe and Slovakia in ALL respects.
The reactions came perhaps two or three times a year to what I would call quite innocent remarks, but the last violent reaction and insults were enough to drive the gentleman from any further participation.
The sad case of ValpoMike might stand as an example of the strong objections to opinions other than his own. Let us hope that Jaga can manage to maintain a lively, broad ranged forum where many perspectives can be expressed.
Kai
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Post by karl on Dec 7, 2008 13:30:13 GMT -7
I wrote this to Zooba: Zooba, We miss you at the old Proboards Polish culture Forum of Jaga. For a long time now I have the opinion that I am more interested in the news and postings from Polish Poles than Diaspora Poles (mainly the USA and Europe). To Polish Poles I add Polish immigrants or students abroad who kept their Polish identity and stayed in touch with the Polish reality in Poland as it actually is. Why? I don't know exactly, but this is what I think it is! I witness often that the contributions of the Polish Poles were of a highter quality and more an insight view of Poland than some of the contributions of the other participants. (Folks, this is ofcourse my subjective view) I don't say that all of the Diaspora contributions are bad or less worthy, but very often they are about things I am not interested in or things I know to little about, for instance Northern-American affairs. I liked your contribution and and like the contributions of Pawian, Tuftabis, and liked the contributions of Bunjo (Wojtek) and Aadam in the past. Sometimes I had the idea that I am too European for a Polish-American Forum, but the special flavor or mix of Poles and Polish-Americans kept me at the Forum. I am typically an example of a person who was alienated from Poland as someone who was in the frindge of the Polish Diaspora as being a half-Pole, who does not speak Polish. I kept in touch with Poland by attending English language Polish culture Forums and reading articles and essays about Polish politics, Polish society and history and trying to see every tv documentry or show about Poland. With a small and not very strong organised Polish diaspora in the Netherlands it is hard to stay in touch with Poles and Poland. Most of my Polish family has faded away in Poland due to aging and immigration (Holland, Denmark and the USA). I have no contact with the relatives in Denmark and the connection with the Polish-American family is a long-distance one! In my view my only chance to reconnect the Polish connection is to learn Polish and to continue to go to the country of my ancesters and friends of my mother. Diaspora communitiesSometimes Diaspora communities have an old fashionate, conservative and nostalgic view of their old country. For instance the Dutch diaspora communities in the USA, Southern-America, South-Africa and other places often cherish and maintain the Duth culture and mentality of the time they left Holland. They often have old fashionate Dutch households, are conservative Protestant Christians or Catholics, in America often the rightwing of the Republican party. Maybe the same thing is with the Polish diaspora the matter, that they have a 19th century, pre-war (before 1939) or Polish Peoples republic view on things. My mother told me about very Polish nationalist Polish-Americans in Chicago who couldn't speak a word of Polish, bu twere the biggest fierce Polish Patriots you could imagine. My mother was suprised about that and made some ironical and critical comments about it. They are not Polish, but have a folklorist, sentimental, distorched view about Poland. At least my cousins in Chicago and Milwaukee were brought uo by two Polish speaking Polish parents who moved to America from Poland after the war. They speak the language and visit Poland regulary, but they are Americans, English speaking people with English speaking kids, who get Polish culture lessons as well, but who are American kids in an American family. Real Poles, Poles from Poland know the Polish situation the best, and are often well educated, modern, used to the New Modern Poland of today, with it's Modern Western and European democracy and economy. Pieter Pieter If not to care of, I would let this fly into the toilet and keep my silence. If not you understand, as of do I understand,this of consternation you are progressing though. And that is a loss of temporary focus of your life. You are progressing through a natural progressing of life that begins with birth, and will end with death. For you are maturing for of the present as a foundation to build upon with for your future. Nothing more, nothing less. It amazes to me, that this has not being approached to you by those of knowing? You are as you are, for you are Dutch, you are not Polish, nor of my country or others, for you are what you are, you are Dutch. If perhaps of wonderment of what I have spoken of, then for proof, look at your pass {Pass-port} for it will say what you are. Then if in daught, then perhaps look into the mirror for your image, and then who do you see? For this image is you. It matters not of your mother or your father if thy have left Poland or where ever, they left for a reason, and they have not returned for a reason. If perhaps of relatives, then yes, of course, you must keep with them of correspondence, for our relatives are so dear to us, and also for them. For these is our kinship and blood. But to maintain of blood lines of a percentage, this is non-sense. We are as we are. I am sorry if perchance I am not so well perceived, but some one must be of logic and truth. For as for be it.. Karl |
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Post by pieter on Dec 7, 2008 16:36:27 GMT -7
Karl,
You are right to a great extend, that is the Dutch or North-West-European identity.
I am not a Central-European nor have a central European upringing and mentality.
Poland has a continental climate, is both an agricultural and industrial nation, is
a large country with several larger cities. It's a religious country, a country with
borders with seven European countries, and an identity which is also shaped
out of it's difficult past and present pragmatic relationship with two large
neigbours in the East and the West.
I come from a small country West from the Western neighbour of Poland,
with a Sea climate, two direct neighbours, England across the North-Sea,
and a culture and political climate simular to Denmark in the North-East
of us. Poland is a Western-Slav country with a latin, Roman-Catholic
culture, while my country is a Protestant nation reshaped by the
Reformation. In contrast to your Lutheranian North-German heritgage
my nation has a Prebestyrian, Calvinist heritage, shaped by the
Indepedant Dutch Calvinist branch of the Reformation.
This is the true nature of the Dutch, independant, but in connection
with many people, because we were and are dependant on our near
and far away neighbours and strangers, due to our trade and
financial core business.
Yes, I carry a Dutch passport, yes I am a Dutch citizen, and yes
the Dutch identity is dominant and clear. Everybody here knows
that. But that is not the only element of me.
I was raised in an European oriented family in which there were
the cultural elements of many European nations, Poland, Germany,
Great-Britain, France, Russia, Italy and Belgium included.
German, Austrian, Polish, Russian, French, Italian, Hungarian
and Czech composers and music was played and the literature
of many writers of these nations and the USA were in my fathers
library. My upbringing and personal development did not stop
at the Dutch border. I was forced to learn two foreign languages,
English and German and could choose a third one French.
I dropped the third one, because learning English and German
were already much effort for me enough.
German is not an easy language for the Dutch I can tell you,
it has a complicated grammer, and Dutch youth prefers English
above German, because it is easier.
The last thing I want to say is. I am not a Pole nor do I speak Polish,
but 50% of my blood is Polish, and I carry my Polish ancesters with
me, and know that they were good and decent families.
I am interested in Polish history, culture, politics and present day Poland,
and that is my case, nobody elses!
I am not an expert of Poland, but I am willing to learn more about Poland,
the Poles and Polish language, because they are European brothers and
sisters of ours in our United Europea and because we share an European
heritage, religion, borders and economy and market(s).
Pieter
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Post by Jaga on Dec 7, 2008 16:48:27 GMT -7
Pieter, guys,
I am glad you got involved with a discussion with Zooba. I do believe that we will see her back! Now we have more time to talk about Poland. We have also archivist, who is very knowledgeable with military history and the elections are also over! So I hope that the forum will come back to the roots.
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Post by karl on Dec 7, 2008 18:22:34 GMT -7
Pieter
Thank you for your return post. It was enlightening of your description. For I had not realized your sensitivity to the subject. For my self to understand. It is through your eyes of your world for my self through empathic understanding, and as so, I do understand now.
I was of laughing silently {not at you, but your dilemma} of your situation with foreign language. My self, I am not very comfortable to the least with foreign language.
I think perhaps so, you are on the correct roadway to your destination with your Polish studies. For with immersion into all things Polish will become perhaps the asset you need. It would be my trust your Polish friends will be of help to you with the dynamics of interchange of conversation whilst in private.
Remember whilst in school and you were of study of English? The grouping of students for language practice in expected situation of social exposure, and the embarrassment of mistakes? It was all so devastating to the ego and pride.
Pieter with this post, I am to say {I am sorry} if my post was rude. For if perchance I were to give hurt to you, it would include equal in hurt to that of my self as well. It is just the way our world is.
Karl
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Post by pieter on Dec 8, 2008 16:08:32 GMT -7
Karl, Your post was refreshing, because it was pragmatic and realistic from a rationalistic view, and I have had the same thoughts inside me, because as a human being I am dualist. My every day life is in a Dutch reality with internationalist elements of English and German language in the communication with foreigners. Sometimes the little bit of french I remember can help me in francophone company, but I am to bad at it to make french sentences for conversation. Polish is something what requires a lot of willpower, determination, concentration, disciplin and action from me! I have to do it! Learn Polish, practice Polish to be able to use and remember it. Fortunately a lot of Poles speak German and English, so that I can have a backup in another language if I fail in my simple, basic foreigner Polish with a heavy Dutch accent (  ;D ) Pieter |
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Post by pieter on Dec 11, 2008 17:36:06 GMT -7
Pieter, The views you express are very much what I observe as well, not just with Polish people at home and abroad, but with other cultures as well. Most of the Polish-American contributions to this forum read very much as conservative American postings and have very, very little to do with Poland. They write as Americans who have little tie to modern Poland other than romanticized pictures of how Poland was/is/should be. For myself, I might guess 10% to 20% of my postings are Polish and European oriented, though my ties are as an ethnic 'southern neighbor' of Poland. I very much enjoy your postings and agree that the quality of the European postings is very high and contributes great substance to this forum. Thanks for your continued efforts. I am also happy to see Pawian participating once again! Kai PS. I have read that when the Roman civilization collapsed in the center (Rome) that it survived in outlying areas for a much longer time. The French spoken in Quebec is said to be the French that was spoken 300 years ago .... I would hope that Polonia would retain more of the genuine Polish culture, and a respect for the country as it has developed today. Kai, Thank you for your reply and excuse me for my late reactions! Last days I had contact via e-mail with Barbara of the Bella Polish Forum and Zooba, and I am very glad that she came back to this Forum. I am very happy that I have contact with these Polish Poles! Every e-mail and every contribution interests me as long as it is connected to Poland or Polish or human affairs. You as a Slovak-American stand very near to Poland, because Slovakia is indeed Polands Southern neighbour. I am interested in Central-Europe with Poland as the core, but I am interested in the Czech Republic (I love Prague, Bohemia and Moravia), Slovakia and Hungary (love Budepast as well) also. These countries all have this central-European atmosphere, which is hard to explain. Parts of Germany are part of that too, in my view Berlin (with it's slav; Polish, Russian and Yugoslav elements). I have a European romantic connection to that part of Europe with my memory, soul, heart and mind. I travelled there, drawed there, experianced the people, the culture, the political climate, the change and that what was left of the past (a multi-layered past of centuries; Middle ages, Romanesque and Gothic era's, the Reformation of Jan Hus, Renaissance, trade, many wars and uprisings, the Habsburg empire, Baroc/Roccoco, Classicism, 19th century Romanticism and Symbolism, the creation of nation states, Jugendstil and Art Nouveau, dadaism, Communist social realism, fascist propaganda, Patriotism in various stiles, the heroic dissidents movements: KOR, Charta 77 and Solidarnosc, people who had a family life and social circle of friends during communism, and the Post-1989 period of Freedom, democracy and fast development). Slovakia, Bratislava I don't know, I have never been there, but it will be no doubt as beautiful, cultural, historical interesting, melancholic and romantic as Poland, the Czech republic and Hungary. Pieter |
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;D )