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Post by Jaga on Dec 27, 2008 8:13:02 GMT -7
somewhere in Sicily since it was getting cold. A group of Poles and Rumunians are living in the cave near Syrakuzy....
too bad.
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Post by freetobe on Dec 27, 2008 14:04:39 GMT -7
Jaga,
What were those people doing in Sicily and how did they wind up in that cave? Did you mean Siracusa?
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Post by Jaga on Dec 27, 2008 15:38:02 GMT -7
Jaga, What were those people doing in Sicily and how did they wind up in that cave? Did you mean Siracusa? There were some Polish and Romanian people living in the cave. I do not know how this all happened. Yes, you are right. It is Siracusa probably in English. I saw it in Polish news. I did not know a proper English word. There were lots of Polish immigrants in Italy in 80-es, since they had some camps for them there. But this immigration should be gone by now. |
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 28, 2008 1:09:39 GMT -7
But this immigration should be gone by now. Why? Don't the homeless people in USA go south for the winter? Here in Europe places such as Southern Italy and France are full of the homeless from all Europe in the colder season. They can benefit from the new times too. |
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Post by Jaga on Dec 28, 2008 9:40:38 GMT -7
Tufta,
but how they get there? It is not easy to cross the boarder if you do not have password or ways of transportation. These people had to be there in Italy for a while, I guess.
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Post by karl on Dec 28, 2008 10:14:06 GMT -7
Jaga
I am not aware of this exact situation that has befallen this poor woman. But of her travells to that location is not so of a mystery.
We have one Europe now, pass port controls no longer exist, it is a path of freedom of travel for people, and the home less are little different. It becomes only a problem once they attempt to apply for state assistance or seek employment with out the proper authorization. Italy is also of this agreement.
It is such shame of this occurrence, for the homeless or of many time not of their making. Especially of female and children. Reasons are extremely variable in location/circumstance/event of the family and what ever.
It is a deplorable situation that brings to mind a considerable amount of personal grief in thought. I do not enjoy to observe those in this of deplorable situations.
In Italy is not a good location to be in this situation. We have many organizations as also I am confident of Poland. For our many social-service organizations with associated mental assistance. If still the cracks these people fall through, we have the organizations of the Church that will care for these unfortunates until they are stabilized. {This why we pay out of our pockets the Church tax we bitterly complain of and happy to have}
Karl
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Post by archivist on Dec 28, 2008 15:51:47 GMT -7
As Karl says, it is a deplorable situation. If we all spent less on foreign aid and more on our own people, it wouldn't happen. Public opinion makes politicians hand out cash in millions/billions. Meanwhile, our own citizens live and die in cardboard boxes in our own cities. That's bad, but acceptable, in the far south of Europe where the temperature never falls too low. But that is too bad to be acceptable in many of our cities when the night time temperature rarely rises above freezing point. Why can't we look after our own people first?
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Post by freetobe on Dec 28, 2008 17:56:30 GMT -7
Can this be clarified before it digresses into a what's wrong or right dialogue? It was a mindbender to me to hear that homeless Polish and Romanian women were living in Sicilian caves. Is it true?
Let's all who care, check it out for validity and then expound on the problem, who's to blame and most importantly how to solve the problem.
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 29, 2008 11:13:17 GMT -7
It was a mindbender to me to hear that homeless Polish and Romanian women were living in Sicilian caves. Is it true? Yes it is true. I have done a search in Polish media and found the information. It certainly didn't hit the front pages. For me it is a mindbender that such info is a mindbender for you. I mean I don't understand what's so incredible. If I were a homeless - and would WANT TO STAY HOMELESS - the first thing I would do would be, head south. Here is region we are talking about  and the caves:  If I didn't want to stay homeless I would stay in Poland, as virtually all the homeless who want to have a steady place of settlement and who are eager to stop drinking, are being given a shelter and an opportunity to come back to the mainstream of society. |
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 29, 2008 11:17:18 GMT -7
Tufta, but how they get there? It is not easy to cross the boarder if you do not have password or ways of transportation. These people had to be there in Italy for a while, I guess. Good question  I don't know. they must have their ways... (The bus ticket Warsaw-Rome is 350 PLN) And you are right some of them are there since a long time. Not just Poles, there're homeless virtually from all around Europe. We need to remember the homelessness is especially high where traditional family bonds is in demise. Not the case in Poland. |
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Post by freetobe on Dec 29, 2008 16:11:24 GMT -7
Tufta,
Mind bending, yes, that is if you believe the stuff written on these forums about how rosy life in the EU is now. You indicate that the homelessness in Poland is more a result of alcoholism than anything else. I trust you are aware that arresting addictive disease is tougher than curing cancer.
The addict/alcoholic has to want to stop the addictive behavior in order to stand a chance of recovery. Even so, the recovery rate is not ideal and relapse is more the norm. The situation is also complicated by mental illness.
FYI, the U.S. numbers for homeless persons are of course much greater, but is due to the greater population. The stats reported here take note of the possible reasons persons become homeless.People are essentially the same everywhere and differences are usually cultural.
What I think I found surprising was the cave dwelling but after looking at the photos, the cave in question looks inviting, far more so than the railroad tunnels under Grand Central Station in N.Y.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Dec 29, 2008 16:43:11 GMT -7
If I didn't want to stay homeless I would stay in Poland, as virtually all the homeless who want to have a steady place of settlement and who are eager to stop drinking, are being given a shelter and an opportunity to come back to the mainstream of society. Polish homeless people also dwell in caves. Krakow is located on limestone rocks, there are many caves in the area, one of them on the banks of the Wisła River. A few years ago we went with kids on a cruise down the river. There was a group of Italian tourists (what a coincidence with reference to above news) who suddenly became very agitated. They pointed to sth on the bank and started taking photos. The reason was a cave with some clothes hanging out in front of it and to the best of my memory a campfire too. I felt a bit stupid.  I agree that in practice the sole reason for going homeless is one`s alcoholism. People who have this problem refuse to undergo treatment, in result are dropped by their families, lose accomodation and land in the street. But most of them like it. They feel free and turn down helping hands. Coming back to the society would require too great sacrifice from them. Go back to work, pay taxes, be responsible, take care of relatives, stick to social rules.... etc etc. They are unable to do it and nobody can help them with that. They are lost to society. |
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 30, 2008 3:36:45 GMT -7
far more so than the railroad tunnels under Grand Central Station in N.Y. and far more so than in the railroad tunnels under Warszawa Centralna Railway Station as well...  And of course you are right people are the same everywhere and the homelessness is everywhere. But in the other hand it is known that involuntary (and thus passing) homelessness happens moe often in the countries where traditional values of family are less deteriorated. In other words, where people care for their elders. Thus there are virtually no homeless people at all in rural Poland, and as I hear very low rates in 'mainland USA". Is it true? And no, life in Europe is not only rosy, it is rosy partially, ie. every, EVERY, country has islands of rosy life and islands of smelly life. But some countries make the tricks , for instance in France the homelessness is... prohibited. Mindbending? In Germany the state tries not to see the problem by... not making any statistic about the number of homeless. What's not counted, doesn't exist for the bureaucracy. Easy. Mindbending? But since both are fully democratic and modern countries they NGO's do the job... And no, Europe is not so different from the US, except the differences between the most rich and the most poor. |
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 30, 2008 3:39:33 GMT -7
They are lost to society. Unfortunately you are right. The side of the story which needs individual analysis for each of us, the society members or... slaves, is that at least some of them seem very happy. |
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Post by freetobe on Dec 30, 2008 13:49:25 GMT -7
A little commentary on the "homeless" in the U.S. Americans agree that it is a terrible condition but the solutions offered meet with resistance. A conservative group will oppose a program to provide food, shelter that is safe and clean, addiction and psychiatric treatment, job training, parenting education that is funded by tax dollars. Their solutions range from faith based facilities(which will apply for government grants to finance their programs, no answer to the tax dollar problem) extreme measures like incarceration, forcible commitment to a mental health program and for illegals, deportation. Laws to prohibit self destructive behavior are poorly enforced and not a major concern of the police. Besides if the police locked up every drunk or disturbed person on the streets, there would be no room in the jails for criminals. The shelters run by government agencies are not for long term residents. They are often used by disturbed small time criminals who pray on the unsuspecting or those unable to defend themselves. Consequently, many "homeless" prefer to live in a card board box or less populated areas camps or any unoccupied building available to them. Perhaps a reason for homeless happiness is they consider themselves free and their meager circumstances are worth the trade off.
Tufta, you mention that in rural Poland that homelessness/addiction is not a big issue/problem and imply that it is likely because of strong family connection. Could you expand on what that theory is about and the criteria used to prove it? I am curious as I am not acquainted with any research on the subject. That is not to say that none has been published. I have been out of the field for some years and am not as up to date as I once was. Thanks.
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