Is Christianity discriminated in Western Europe?

[cfn]

I said I NEVER use the other names in vain. If you read, and I know it was a pretty long message, you'll find you have your info wrong. (I guess I like to write novelettes!) You'll also find, after reading, that I said when I do curse in such a way, I use my own 'religion.' Of course, I am not proud of it, and know that it is wrong (I need help on dealing with stress better), but I would not be fooling God if I did not admit it.

[cfn]

Dear Pieter: I like what you said about our corrupt culture adding to the malaise. That took a lot of courage.

[karl]

Jun 3, 2009 21:11:59 GMT -7 cfn said:

I said I NEVER use the other names in vain. If you read, and I know it was a pretty long message, you'll find you have your info wrong. (I guess I like to write novelettes!) You'll also find, after reading, that I said when I do curse in such a way, I use my own 'religion.' Of course, I am not proud of it, and know that it is wrong (I need help on dealing with stress better), but I would not be fooling God if I did not admit it.

Paul

I must say,,that what you have expressed above, is very profound, and in deed so! For we as people, do not fool God, for our thoughts are very transparent.

I would only suppose, the use of cursing is as old as man. For the most part, I would not believe to use the Lords name in vain is out of hate, but more so perhaps out of extremes of emotion,such as fear/surprise/extreme disgust and anger.

For of this, I am not qualified to provide any professional description other then as discussion of that we enjoy at this present.

Whilst reading your very well written personal description of your thoughts. I was in self, of mirror of my own.

For I was of first to actually realize of God {our Lord} at age 8. And have felt protected since. My life has been good and have been very fortunate to have lived a protected life.

There were some years, I was not sure I would live to return home, and so of this, I would pray to God before beginning the day to be sure of my daily prayer. It has become a habit over the years now, for if not in the morning, I insure of prayer every day, some times multiple occasions whilst walking or whilst alone for as not to be disturbed. Whilst walking, I use the name of {talking with God} For then I have the opportunity to discuss what is on my mind, my fears, the wrongs I have done to others in speaking and/or actions, and how badly I feel for what I have done. On other occasions, I talk {to God} about currant events I am concerned with, and how best I must handle them.

I am not proud to say of this, but my shadow has not crossed any church door way for many years. I think perhaps it is my deep mistrust of many churches in the manner of up-holding their faith in God and obedience to the word of God. And as of this, I hold Gods word in my heart.

In the matter of words of religion. Usually I stay out of that field of roses, for it is of a very broad term. I think perhaps though, many have forgotten of our history as Christians being that we are the followers of Christ. And the God of Abraham, is the same God of the Jews, Christians and Islams. For Abraham was the father of the Arabs.

None of us know in absolute of our eventual fate, other then death will be the victor. It is our faith that keeps alive our hope and trust that we will be in the end in Gods graces. Speaking only for my self. In the years of my knowledge of the presence of God {Our Lord}, with all that I have done and committed, I have always asked of God for his forgiveness, and have felt forgiven. Of this, I am very thankful.

Karl

[Jaga]

May 30, 2009 18:52:47 GMT -7 cfn said:

I think Christ has the biggest shoulders of any god. What I mean is, no other God/god is discriminated against so much. Sometimes it's because the inward thought behind the discrimination is: 'There is something different about Christians...they'll get by, they can take it.' Anyone with a beef against authority takes it out on the Christians. Why? I think deep in their heart they feel there's an accountability there that they find nowhere else. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in America I never hear anyone say, "OH, BUDDHA!" or "Mohammed!" I only hear this about Jesus Christ. Why?

Hi Paul and others,

I believe that Europe goes sometimes to extreme to protect the rights of minorities and hide any signs of christianity.
On the other hand I believe that some of the evangelical christians here are also going to the extreme - to base all science on the bible and not to teach about evolution.

I just finished reading the book:
www.amazon.com/Crazy-God-Helped-Religious-Almost/dp/0786718919/polishculture-20
Crazy for God: How I Grew Up as One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right, and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of It Back

it talks about another extreme. I really recommend you to read it

but coming back to Europe. I am a religious person and it hurts me that EU political correctness go so extreme sometimes

[cfn]

Karl, If God allows, I hope to spend a lot of time talking to you in the future. I really appreciated your saying, 'If you keep studying Polish, your friends will be amazed at your achievement,' because that sounds satisfying! I have often felt that way about other people who learned English. I would like to ask you questions about your experiences and such things. To hear your stories. Anyway, I hope you are well tonight.
Jaga, I probably won't be able to get that book; I went to the website, though. So I was hoping you could tell me a little more about it. I heard Frankie Schaeffer speak when I was a young man at bible school (the easiest years of my life--an old American saying, not so popular nowadays, would have called them, "My salad days"--but don't ask me why that means "easy, carefree days"). He had just produced the film series for his dad, "How Should We Then Live."
Thank you once again for your hard work! I read that you're a physicist. I can hardly believe you could do all this work on this site and have another job. And also take care of your family and home. I don't know how you do it! You surely are fitting the GOOD stereotype of the hard-working Polish people I knew growing up.
Oh, also, I am understanding how to use the computer better now. I think your brother did a great job designing these sites. So I want to thank him, too.
People work so hard today. I really feel bad when people don't thank them. It takes so much sacrificial work to keep such sites, and other good works going. God knows, money and time is always a struggle. What would happen if good people just gave up? I hate to think of it. There would be no hope in life, because we would always be waiting for "someone else to do it," when we should have appreciated the people who WERE doing it.

[cfn]

To Karl: What did you mean when you said, there were many years when you were not sure you would ever get home again? As a German, what were you doing in Denmark? Jutland? Does Denmark have an area that historically had a lot of Germans? I seem to remember something about the Jutland (which is a German word, I believe) Peninsula. Were you persecuted by Danish people growing up, or did they completely accept you as a citizen? If you want, I'll give Jaga permission to give you my e-mail address, if that is allowed.

[Jaga]

Hi Paul,

thanks. I used to spend lots of time on the internet, but I realized that I was getting to isolated from the normal life... so I am not that devoted to the internet website and forum as I used to be. Maybe it is better this way, since we have other people contributing also.
By the way, Marek Urban, is not my brother, he is unrelated to me - but happened to have the same last name. He lives in Canada.
We are so glad to see you here in the forum!

[karl]

Jun 4, 2009 17:51:34 GMT -7 cfn said:

To Karl: What did you mean when you said, there were many years when you were not sure you would ever get home again? As a German, what were you doing in Denmark? Jutland? Does Denmark have an area that historically had a lot of Germans? I seem to remember something about the Jutland (which is a German word, I believe) Peninsula. Were you persecuted by Danish people growing up, or did they completely accept you as a citizen? If you want, I'll give Jaga permission to give you my e-mail address, if that is allowed.

Paul

Thank you for your very nice inquiry and an honest question. For one, in past and recent, I have been a blabbery mouth and have tried to reform and speak more of the Polish.

Of your question, I will try to provide as best as I may.

No, I was not persecuted by the people of Dänemark. My mother is Dänisch and I have/had 2 aunties there. In this area and that of North Germany, was then and some what now, we spoke a dialect of Nedersaksisch {Nedderdüütsch} now officially as: Nedersaksisch by our government {currently protected dialect}. This also was/is spoken in the coastal village we lived in of Esbjerg.

Dänmark was then occupied by our military at the time of 1944 and no thought was of our presence. I was then under the care of my Auntie and today, have little knowledge of for why for she has long since died. I think perhaps the reason may be of the fear of the Americans and that also of our family business in Bremen.

In 1945 as the war ended, we then were occupied by the British conquerers. As we spoke the same language of the land, apparently Auntie and I were undiscovered as of our nationality for I attended the same school as with my 2 cousins.

The British military were good to us and insured of school books to our little school. But, with also of our language, the teaching of the English language was required.

My run-ins with the British military was a cause of much distress with both aunties and my 2 female cousins. It was of child curiosity with some of learnt lessons.

For one example for as not to be abore:

The British built with there standing military presence, a some what interesting supply depot for their ware house supply and heavy transport. But, on occasion, the guard people must by nature, attend to their toilet needs and as so, would sneak in with the gate un-attended. opportunity for curious young boys.

For I was simply fascinated by the mechanical workings of the heavy transport vehicles. And as so the opportunity was in my hands, I ran and dived under the most near transport and lay on my back, studying the most fascinating mechanical workings.

But, the day was hot, and in the coolness of the shade, I went to sleep. Until, two strong hands ruffly pulled me out. I was faced with two nasty military guard fellows and a very tall slender British officer with a very smart mustache that was magnificent. For as I looked up and looked up, the officer was as of a starched statue. Being that I was terrified to almost of to wet my pants, the only thought was of to salute a well as possible and then face to be shot or what ever they do.

The officer with the face of stone, turned and entered their office for a few minutes, then returned and his faced seemed to shatter with a very small smile as he pinned a medal upon my blouse, and with a short salute, departed. I was then released to face my 2 aunties, 2 cousins on a trot to retrieve my loused body.

The swatting I received later was rather painful, but the blubbering all over my dry cloths from my 2 cousins was simply un-called for.

To properly under stand the above. Imagine your self, as a young fellow with some self respect. But, blond of hair and blue eyes living in a house hold of 2 aunties, and two female cousins that used you like their personal possession and doll. Then for my body size as being very the same as one and close to the other, those 2 vixens used me as a mannequin for their making of cloths {dresses}. Not only extremely embarrassing, but absolutely humiliating to say the least.

My aunties released me to return home to Cuxhaven in 1956. Since those years yes, I loved very dearly both my Aunties and cousins.

Cousin Eja and I were very similar in age, whilst cousin Ejbrith was older. Ejbrith married some years later, and now deceased. Cousin Eja disappeared, I think she may have gone to Norway, but I am not sure for that was only a rumour from some of the family.

Of the British occupational military. We were well treated by them for the most part. If my Auntie and I had been identified as German nationals. We would have been arrested and deported to which ever holding camp they wished.

Karl

[cfn]

You brought to light some things I had never known about. I guess I should have known the occupying forces would control things, but I did not expect that the populations would fear the British, Americans, and French to the extent that they feared the Germans, and especially, the Russians.
I read a fantastic book once, by a woman in Berlin. It told of the women of Berlin's experiences when the Russians conquered Berlin. The name MIGHT have been Berliner's Diary, or something like that. It is a quick read, only about 120 pages. I like the personal touch of reading about others' experiences. I think it helps make connections between people, because you can't judge them because of their politics or nation of origin. A person may argue against your politics, that they are not true, but they can't argue that your actual life experiences are not true.
Have to leave now. Am going to prepare to work on my wife's car with my son-in-law.
My best, Paul

[gideon]

Back to the threads main focus a bit. I would offer these sites as a source of information regarding the question of Christians being persecuted. The Christian Bible is banned in 52 countries. What are they afraid of? The truth!
www.persecution.com/
www.persecution.org/suffering/index.php
Please allow yourselves to view the world as I see it for a moment. I predict this will be the end of this thread.

-Tim

[gideon]

Heres a funny crazypants story!

Barbara Kay: The war on Christianity in the Middle East
Posted: June 04, 2009, 11:41 AM by Yoni Goldstein
Barbara Kay
I once read a memorable scene in a book about the Nazi era in which an eager young member of the SS was trying to impress his superior with the zealotry of his anti-Semitism. The younger man explained that he had arranged to have a story published somewhere that would indict the Jews for a variety of crimes of sexual perversity as a means of ratcheting up public hatred for them. The older man looked at the youth with contempt and said something like this: "Who will take such a ridiculous accusation seriously? I hate Jews, but everybody knows they are good family people and don't go in for sexual perversity. Find something people will believe."

The older SS man may have been evil, but he was smart. If you are going to be evil, be evil in a clever way. I am reminded of that passage by a fevered attack on Israel in Time magazine's MidEast Blog of May 8, in which columnist Andrew Lee Butters claims, amongst other wide-ranging accusations against Israel, that "the creation of Israel has been a disaster for Christians in the Middle East."


That was shocking news to me. And should be, since not only isn't it true, it isn't true in a big way. I read about Butters ridiculous accusations in Canadian poet and polemicist David Solway's article in FrontPage Magazine, Israel's Oppressive Treatment of Christians?. From what I gleaned in Solway's exhaustive rebuttal of any such claim, Butters seems to represent a uniquely meretricious cadre of sycophantic, self-abasing Christians who have discovered a strategy for combining Israel-bashing and Islamo-ingratiation in one fell — but fallacious — swoop.


Solway's article is a stunning eye-opener. He cites allegations of Israel's inhumanity to Christians from numerous "respectable" sources: National Geographic Magazine, whose June feature article compares Palestinian Christians to rats trapped in an Israeli cage; the New England Conference of the Methodist Church's libelous accusation that Israeli actions "endanger Christians;" and Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams' claim that the Israeli security fence — "ostensibly for keeping out terrorists" (since it has reduced terrorism by 95%, it is more than "ostensible") — has contributed to the decline of the Christian community in Israel.


Where to begin to refute such absurd calumnies? For openers: Hamas and radical Muslim sects routinely drive Christians from their homes and churches. The Salafis want to cleanse the Gaza Strip of its 2,500 Christians. Individual Christians have been killed or maimed there simply for being Christian. Both the Latin Church and the Rosary Sisters School in Gaza City have been torched and looted, and the 8,000-book YMCA library destroyed. The director of the Teacher’s Bookshop, run by the Palestinian Bible Society, was stabbed to death.


Solway's long article chronicles a distressing litany of Arab inhumanity to Christians: "Further afield, Egypt has repressed its Christian minority for generations, Sudan has closed the Christian Unity High School in Khartoum, Malaysia has confiscated Christian books on the grounds that they are offensive “to the sensibilities of Muslims," Jordan has arrested eight Christian evangelicals for “propagating the Christian faith,” Algeria is cracking down on Evangelical churches whose liturgy, in the words of Algerian minister of religious affairs, Bouabdellah Ghlamallah, is equivalent to “terrorism,” and the Shia majority in Basra is killing and abducting Christians, having already forced the cancellation of the 2007 Christmas festivities.

Catholic churches are frequently bombed in Iraq, the Chaldean Archbishop of Mosul, Paulus Faraj Rahho, was abducted and killed — he was not the first — and on May 21, 2009, a suicide bomber detonated in an Assyrian Christian market in Baghdad, killing 12 people and wounding twice that number. Estimates put the current exodus of Christians from Iraq at over half the Christian population of the country. None of which has anything to do with Israel and everything to do with Muslim “sensitivities.” "


If Western Islamophiles are determined to see no evil in any culture but their own and Israel's, some candid Arabs are more forthright with the truth. Solway offers the startling frankness of Saudi journalist Hussein Shukakshi, who admitted writing in the London daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat on Feb. 2, 2008 that "the Arab world is being drained of its Christian residents. The rate of Christian emigration from Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, Palestine, Sudan and Syria has reached astonishing proportions. Palestine in particular is facing a plan to eradicate the entire deeply-rooted Christian presence from its territories."


Palestinian journalist Abd Al-Nasser Al-Najjar supports this dramatic claim in an October 25, 2008 column for Al-Ayyam: "Christians are being persecuted ... in most Arab countries." He goes on to say that in Palestine "the trend is the same ... The most fundamental problem [is that] we continue to instill a horrific culture in our children, one that sees Christians as infidels."


By contrast, Christians are perfectly at home in Israel, and not the least bit fearful of their rights being taken away or — impossible even to contemplate — afraid for their physical safety. Why would they be? Jews are pluralists and believe there are many routes to the one God. They do not proselytize. They are respectful of all religions. Let us remember that Israel has always tended to Christian holy places with care and reverence whenever they have held political sway over them, but the sites have been neglected at best and often desecrated under Arab guardianship.


The Christian community in the Palestinian areas has shrunk to 1.7% through no fault of Israel. Bethlehem, where Christians were once the majority, are now a timid minority and endangered — again, through no fault of Israel's. According to Solway's article, a Church official told Israeli-Arab reporter Khaled Abu Toameh that "radical Islamic groups are waging a campaign to get rid of us and no one seems to care."


It is an old cliché, but still a true one: There are none so blind as those that will not see. The reality is that Israel is the only country in the Mideast where Christians can feel safe, and where Christianity can flourish unmolested.


A final, rather chilling thought: On Dec. 22, 2008, Hamas legalized crucifixion. That would indicate a certain cast of mind you won't find in Israel, where there is no death penalty, let alone a death penalty so obscenely disrespectful of Christian sensibilities. How many Christians will Hamas have to crucify before those Christians who hate Israel more than they love themselves open their eyes to the truth about who is doing what to whom in the Middle East?