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Post by Jaga on May 10, 2006 11:40:56 GMT -7
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Post by bescheid on May 10, 2006 15:30:56 GMT -7
This is a prime example of diplomacy in real life. Mr. Ahmadinejad (President of Iran) is trying to communicate with the Mr. Bush (president of the United States of America) and reach first, a common understanding of each individual understandable language (it is never enough to simply speak a common language with out intrinsic understanding).
Then, to each, an understanding of the people of which each represents as the responsibility of leadership.
There is a certain mind set of each in respekt to education, language, religious training, and historic reasoning.
It is my sincere hope, that the honourable President Bush, will stop for a time of his crusades, just listen to this man and learn. For this is a future of the Middle East as we know it.
And Israel is stuck still in the craws of these people.
There is much to resolve between this nation (Iran) and the future. It is a time to weld up friend ship with Iran, or, create a very dangerous enemy.
This is a time that America does not have many options. Petrol is one. The time is here, now, that friends need to be welded into a lasting partnership in the middle east.
The wealth of the American nation is rapidly being bled off with the extreme high cost of petrol. It is not just a national problem, it is a family problem. People are beginning to trade off their personal income wealth, just to fill up their auto tanks with petrol. This relates to cutting back on items not felt to be completely necessary. This relates into cut backs on vacation travel time, Christmas shopping, food items, clothing items.
As you see, the Iranian question is not just a question, it is a requirement of diplomatic resolution.
Think of this as of what I have brought forward, and multiply it by 10 years, or 20 years at the present rate of cost of petrol energy/personal transportation and related goods and services, as it is all relative.
If the Iranians close up there doors of petrol trade, then it could potentially lock up the middle east. And that relates to war and disaster, yes.
Charles
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Post by bescheid on May 11, 2006 7:38:06 GMT -7
Jaga
Well, darn, appears I have spoiled your presentation once again, some how, I am really actually with sincerity, learn to just shut up and let other people talk.
Charles
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Post by sciwriter on May 11, 2006 8:10:46 GMT -7
Jaga and Charles, well said. However, since Petrol provides considerable wealth for Iran, why are so many Iranians poor? Israel is reducing its dependence on USA by increasing ties with Europe. Carl
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Post by jimpres on May 11, 2006 8:14:55 GMT -7
Carl,
You are correct. Most if not all oil producing countries have two classes of people the very rich and the very poor. The letter makes many references to Israel. And his open comments about wiping from the earth are not encourging.
Jim
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Post by sciwriter on May 11, 2006 9:56:06 GMT -7
Guys:The President of Iran’s comments reflect the struggle of people of color against colonialism of the Western powers. Similar statements have been made over the years by anti-colonialist leaders such as:
. Franz Fanon-Algeria (1954-62). . Dr. Walter Rodney-Guyana . Nelson Mandela-Apartheid S. Africaq
Dark color Mr. Ahmadienejad succeeded in getting lily white Mr. Bush to negotiate with him as equals.
Moreover… When Jews of color run Israel, peace between Israel, Palestinians, Arab countries & Iran will occur. Carl .
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Post by pieter on May 11, 2006 11:06:43 GMT -7
Guys:The President of Iran’s comments reflect the struggle of people of color against colonialism of the Western powers. Similar statements have been made over the years by anti-colonialist leaders such as: . Franz Fanon-Algeria (1954-62). . Sir Walter Rodney-Guyana . Nelson Mandela-Apartheid S. Africaq Dark color Mr. Ahmadienejad succeeded in getting lily white Mr. Bush to negotiate with him as equals. Moreover… When Jews of color run Israel, peace between Israel, Palestinians, Arab countries & Iran will occur. Carl . Carl, It may sound social Darwinist, racist or European arrogant, but the fact of life (and of reality) is that the powebase in Israel and Diaspora Judaism lays in the White Caucasian Ashkenazi Jews (of Eastern-European descent), they have nearly a century of experiance, first in the Yishuv (Jewish community/populatian of Palestine, the firsts wave of pioneers that made Aliyah as olim -jews who resettle in Eretz Yisrael-), where they organised in the agricultural settlements, in the kibbutz, moshav, moshav shitufi, or moshava (pl. moshavot). The original jewish population was small compared to the waves of newcommers, and often oreintal. Later these Ashekenazi jews from Poland, Russia and elsewhere erected self defense units to protect themselves against attacks of the Arabs from Palestine. Haganah was founded in 1920. The Labourunion Histadrut was founded in 1920 too and for the Jews in Palestine, which were than mostly Ashkenazi immigrants. Add to the Eastern-Europeans their Zionist brethern from the West, who went to Palestine too. Most ofd them were Ashkenazim too. Ofcourse you had and have Sefardim in Eastern- and Western Europe to, these jews of the Iberian peninsula, very sophisticated, educated people who had their roots in science (from the Moorish time in Spain) trade and commerce and culture (our greatest Dutch philosopher was of Sephardi background, from a Portugese-jewish family), and some of them were probably Zionist too, but the trained, educated and ideological motivated (politcal trained) jews were the Ashkenazim. Even in the religious field they were dominant, the Ashkenazi Orthodox have influenced the Sephardi Ultra-Orthodox (Shas party for instance). These brethern from the West were idealistic, political motivated, Socialist Patriots and Jewish Nationalists (inspired by 19th century European Nationalism). Herzl wrote "Der Judenstaat", and even thought about a German speaking Jewish state with Opera and German culture. He was an assimilated jew who wanted a Jewish homeland, due to the anti-semitism in the Europe of his time. Also German jews, Austrian jews, French, Dutch, Belgian and British jews went to Palestine, but not as much as from Eastern-Europe. The Zionist wanted to create a new sort of jew, which was freed from the roots of the country where he or she came from, the ISRAELI, the people who were born out of these new jews (immigrants who worked the Holy land and addobted new Hebrew as their new language, develloping it) got children whom were born Israeli's and called Sabra's ("Sabra" is the name of a cactus, sweet inside but thorny outside; it is usually applied to a young, native Israeli.). In all fields the Ashkenazim dominated and ruled until 1977, in politics (Israeli Labour), the economy, sciences, culture and the army. The Arab- and Berber Jews who came from Arab, Islamic and North-African countries after 1948 had a minor position in the Israeli society. This resulted in the seventees in a rebellious oriental jewish youth movement The Black Panthers (called after the American organisation), against the discrimination of the Ashkenazi elite in the Israeli society. Today the Sefardi- and Mizrahi (Arab) jews have gained more influence in the society and politics, because of their number, and because they have their own parties (Shas/Gesher), and got more power in the main party blocks, labour and Likud (Now Kadima ofcourse). Things are changing with a Persian president, a Persian minister of Defense and a Maroccan leader of the labour party (the new minister of foreign affairs), but the prime minister is stil ashkenazi, and most leaders of the Israeli parties are. Time will tell us if jews of color wil run Israel. About the letter of the Iranian president, it is a "wolf dressed in sheeps clothes". Never trusted the fellow and never will, I find him a creap. Jasser Arafat also promoted peace in English and war in Arab. Pieter
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Post by jimpres on May 11, 2006 11:12:55 GMT -7
Pieter,
Better insight then I have, I do not get the connection that a colored Jew would solve the problem as voiced by Carl.
The arabs want to kill all jews regardless of color, like another famous lunatic. What am I missing?
Jim
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Post by Jaga on May 11, 2006 11:50:40 GMT -7
I read the letter yesterday in the bus.
My main point - Bush and America should finally start DIALOGUE instead of a next WAR. I do not understand this militaristic attitude of America now. I do not understand why the fact that Israel has nuclear weapons is just tabo but the fact that Iran - a huge country in the middle East have soem nuclear power is .... so terrible and unjustified. This is simply hipocrisy.
There are some interesting remarks - the president of Iran tries to argue how the Christian president who shoudl obey the God's teaching starts preventive wars which in effect seem unjustful. He is saying that Saddam is of course a terrible dictator but the war was about WMD. He is also reminding that originally America.... was supporting Saddam when he attacked Iran!!!
I do not agree with some of his remarks about Israel. On the other hand why America does not accept any UN resolutions against Israel - he has a point there.
I am not sure that pres. Bush would ever read this letter, they already decided that they do not want to talk to the guy, that he is an enemy.
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Post by Jaga on May 11, 2006 11:55:19 GMT -7
Here is one of the fragments:
Or because of the possibility of the existence of WMDs in one country, it is occupied, around one hundred thousand people killed, its water sources, agriculture and industry destroyed, close to 180,000 foreign troops put on the ground, sanctity of private homes of citizens broken, and the country pushed back perhaps fifty years. At what price? Hundreds of billions of dollars spent from the treasury of one country and certain other countries and tens of thousands of young men and women – as occupation troops – put in harms way, taken away from family and loved ones, their hands stained with the blood of others, subjected to so much psychological pressure that everyday some commit suicide and those returning home suffer depression, become sickly and grapple with all sorts of ailments; while some are killed and their bodies handed to their families. On the pretext of the existence of WMDs, this great tragedy came to engulf both the peoples of the occupied and the occupying country. Later it was revealed that no WMDs existed to begin with. Of course Saddam was a murderous dictator. But the war was not waged to topple him, the announced goal of the war was to find and destroy weapons of mass destruction. He was toppled along the way towards another goal; nevertheless the people of the region are happy about it. I point out that throughout the many years of the imposed war on Iran, Saddam was supported [armed with WMD] by the West. Mr. President, You might know that I am a teacher. My students ask me how can these actions be reconciled with the values outlined at the beginning of this letter and duty to the tradition of Jesus Christ (PBUH), the Messenger of peace and forgiveness? There are prisoners in Guantanamo Bay that have not been tried, have no legal representation, their families cannot see them and are obviously kept in a strange land outside their own country. There is no international monitoring of their conditions and fate. No one knows whether they are prisoners, POWs, accused or criminals.
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Post by bescheid on May 11, 2006 12:48:34 GMT -7
Well, I have proposed this prior. But, perhaps it would help to once again make the same proposal.
It is not enough to simply mutually know a common language as in this case,"English". There lays the requirement to understand the rational of each other, as in this case, an Iranian leadership and an American leadership.
The Iranians of course well shake and rattle swords at Israel, this is a public display to gain and keep the confidence of the Iranian people. It does not mean the man is actually willing to attempt the wiping of the Israeli nation off the face of the earth.
These people are very afraid of the Israelis, yes, they are frightened of the prospects of the Israeli ability to wage war for what ever reason. They (Iranian) know that the Israelis are extremely capable of a successful campaign for what ever reason, and in their eyes (Iranian) the Israelis can not lose, because they will have the full might of the American military backing them.
This above, is what the Iranians see through their own eyes, not the world we see, but, the world they see.
The simple presence of a letter to President Bush, is in self, simply out standing. It is a peace offering in the only manner left to the Iranian leadership.
Charles
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Post by sciwriter on May 11, 2006 13:44:18 GMT -7
Charles, you are missing the intermarriage of dark Jews and Muslim & Christian Palestinians and other Arabs in Israel and elsewhere in Mideast, and acceptance of dark Jews in Algeria, Tunesia and Iran. Carl
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Post by pieter on May 11, 2006 14:07:08 GMT -7
Jews have intermarried with all kind of ehtnic people, and that is why you have the blue eyed, blond haired Silver jews of today (that was their intermariage with the Germans and the Slavs), and they have Arabic, Berber, African (Negoid/Bantu blood, the Lemba in South-Africa). I aggree with you that Israel of today is a very multi-ethnic country with the Ethiopian Falashmurah/Falasha immigrants, the Bedouin and Druze minorities (doing duty in the Israeli army), and the Jewish-arab peace villages.
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Post by bescheid on May 12, 2006 10:41:30 GMT -7
Carl
There is no relationship of people of colour in as much to the currant and present situation.
It is a matter of coming to a mutual understanding for the beginning of a diplomatic resolution to the question at hand.
The question at hand is simple. For the American government not to initiate a war against Iran.
Charles
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Post by pieter on May 14, 2006 12:06:39 GMT -7
Carl There is no relationship of people of colour in as much to the currant and present situation. It is a matter of coming to a mutual understanding for the beginning of a diplomatic resolution to the question at hand. The question at hand is simple. For the American government not to initiate a war against Iran. Charles Charles/Jaga, I totally aggree with you Charles, because on diplomacy, foreign affairs and defense issues American selfdiscipline and restaint is necassery in the present world. The total of the Islamic world is to large (1billion) people to want them to unite temselves against you. And if military action is needed only the nuclear installations should be atacked and destroyed, not a full scale war. Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran would be to much for the West to be able to handle. You don't know how Russia and China will act in that case? For sure the Russian Federation and China does not want an expansion of the American influence sphere in their backyards. Pieter
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