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Post by jimpres on Jun 1, 2006 8:32:06 GMT -7
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Post by bescheid on Jun 1, 2006 15:24:38 GMT -7
Amazing is it not, the lengths these people will go, just to place blame upon another entity. Just to contend with their own failures and poverty.
These are people, but, people lost in the sands of time. They have advanced not, since the time of camels, dust, tent dwellers and herdsman of small cattle.
They really do need to find a job.
Charles
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Post by pieter on Jun 2, 2006 14:27:12 GMT -7
Amazing is it not, the lengths these people will go, just to place blame upon another entity. Just to contend with their own failures and poverty. These are people, but, people lost in the sands of time. They have advanced not, since the time of camels, dust, tent dwellers and herdsman of small cattle. They really do need to find a job. Charles Jim/Bescheid, This is the view I get from my American, Israeli and European sources. But there is another, more ballanced view on the Palestinians. Like the Jews many Palestinian Arabs were driven of their land, their villages and towns, which were destroyed and erased from the earth and crowded with new people, Oilim, Jews who made Alyiah and resettled in the for them Holy land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael), and they built Jewish agricultural settlements (Kibutsim and Moshavs), villages, towns and new cities (Tel Aviv). 700.000 Palestinians had to go elsewhere in UN-refugee camps om Gaza, the West-bank, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Tunesia (PLO base). In these Arab brother states they were not granted citizenship, but they stayed in deplorable state in their often guarded camps. (In Lebanon surrounded by Lebanese troops and Miltia). Due to the constant occupation of Israel and harsh discrimination by their fellow Arabs the Palestinians became impoverished in Israel the occupied territories and in the Arab neigbourstates. Count to that their own inefficient, corrupt, divided and extremist leadership, the ongoing clashes of clans, violence between rival militia groups and plain criminals and the devastating effect of terrorism and occupation on both sides (suicide bombings in Israel, retaliation attacks by the Israeli's). Their infrastucture is destroyed, houses broke, tormented children, broken families, lost of social control (fahters who were humiluated by Israeli soldiers or Palestinian thugs have not authorities over their sons). On the other sides nearly every Israeli family lost members in one of the many wars with it's Arab neigbours, Suicide attacks, stabings or shootings or terror abroad (Egypt, Jordany, Kenia). Both Israeli's and Palestians know what the loss of a family member is, what terror does to a society, and what the living under constant threat is. What many Westerners do not know or want to know is that the toll of lives is much higher on the Palestinian side. Another thing is that the Palestinian diaspora has learned from the Jewish diaspora a great deal, being an unwanted alien, where-ever you go. In the Arab countries, being seen as a pariah, a threat to the national unity, while the leaders of the governments and opposition Islamic movements pay lip service to you. In Gaza and the Westbank being opressed by the Israeli's, their own corrupt or extremist autorities and lawless armed gangs of thugs (called Palestinian secret services or police) and ordinairy criminals. In the neighbouring countries as a "protected" minority, which must live in a sort of Arab (Palestinian) Getto's, not being allowed to have property. In the West seen as people of another (alien, semetic) race, with another culture, language and religion. A religion that is seen as strange and dangerous. I am sure they can identify with the jews of the last centuries in Europe and other parts of the world, if they were not so infected or brainwashed by the propaganda of the chanals of their so called Arab brothers. Yet, many of these Palestinians have learned from their opressors and neigbours the Israeli's, with whom they share a semitic language (many of them speak Hebrew next to Arab, and even watch Israeli television), and even Jews in Europe and America with whom they came into contact. Some of them even studied "Zionism"(Mahmoud Abbas in Moscow). There have been influential Palestinian intellectuals, such as Edward Said ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Said ),Walid Khalidi, a Palestinian historian, Sari Nusseibeh, a Palestinian philosophy professor, and others. Palestinians are travellers, they are everywhere in the world, as workers (Arab Guld states), merchants, businessmen, students, and Middle class (shop keepers), entrepreneurs and teachers. They are not dumb people. Many of them want to live in peace with their Israeli neigbours, like many Israeli's want a just peace too. They are only stuck with their Hamas and El Fathah (PLO) leaders, who continue to spread hatred in Arab and try to look moderate, reasonable and pragmatic (diplomatic) in English (for the international arena). Israeli's and Palestinian arabs are more alike than the Palestinian, Western and Israeli press wants us to believe. Not every Palestinian is a terrorist or guerilla fighter with a Kalashnikov, and not every Israeli is a occupying soldier, Settler or agressive Zionist. Steriotypes and prejudice covers the simularities beteen these people. From the other hand, we should not want to force our Western- European or American views on democracy and nation building on Arabs and Israeli's, because the Middle east has another system, faith based organisation, and clan wise organised society with the power of the sheiks, law schools of Islam, Ulama (consensus of the believers) and the infuence of Arab nationalism (Pan-Arabism), Arab socialism (Nassrism and Baath party ideology in Syria and Iraq) and the fairly new phenomenom of the political islam (spread by the Muslimbrotherhood, and it's more radical offspring Hamas / en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood ). I dislike all those Arab ideologies and theocratic political movements, but it is the reality of that region of the world. What worries me is that the "secular" Arab Nationalism and Socialism is merging or collaborating with the Islamist forces and may become a new force ( the unity of Marxist and Islamist terrorists in Palestine in their cause "the destruction of Israel"). Pieter |
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Post by pieter on Jun 2, 2006 14:29:59 GMT -7
San Francisco Chronicle
Palestinian American masters art of healing in Israel
San Jose man graduates from dad's school
Matthew Kalman, Chronicle Foreign Service
Thursday, May 26, 2005
Beersheba, Israel -- Palestinian American Jubran Dakwar was brought up in San Jose and was educated at the University of San Francisco, but when the time came to begin medical school, there was only one place he wanted to study -- Israel.
It was 2001, the height of the Palestinian intifada, when he started his medical studies, but that didn't deter Dakwar. On Tuesday, he graduated from the Medical School for International Health at the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Beersheba, the same college his father, Sajjiyeh, attended 30 years ago.
"I felt that going to medical school in Israel would be a challenge," said Dakwar, 25, who studied biology and philosophy at USF. "I abhor all forms of violence, prejudice and hatred, and knew that this decision would mean facing these things with my eyes wide open."
The university hospital, Soroka, serves most of southern Israel and the Gaza Strip. Dakwar spent months treating Israeli soldiers wounded by rocket attacks and bombs in the intifada.
In January 2004, while he was completing a surgery elective at Shaare Tzedek Hospital in Jerusalem, a suicide bomber blew up a commuter bus next to the prime minister's residence across town, killing 10 people and injuring more than 50.
"The hospital I was at received the victims of the bombing," Dakwar recalled. "The surgeons get the worst patients right away, so we were there on the front line. It was a profound experience.
"The first victim was burned from head to toe," he said. "Another person was bleeding from the back of his knee. When we got him into surgery he'd already been in hospital an hour. The surgeon stuck his finger deep into the guy's wound and pulled out a big piece of scrap metal. I picked it up and looked at it and thought, this is a weapon of war. It made me very sad."
Dakwar was born into a Catholic Palestinian family in the Israeli seaside city of Haifa. They moved to California in 1983 when he was 4 years old, and the family still lives in Palo Alto. He hoped returning to his homeland to study would help him understand his family's culture as well as the political situation in the Middle East.
He praised Ben-Gurion University and its international health program, now in its fourth year, which is operated jointly with Columbia University Medical Center in New York. Other graduates Tuesday included students from Tibet, Rwanda and Iran.
During his studies, Dakwar said, he made an effort to get to know Jewish Israelis, but he also experienced first-hand the racism and humiliation suffered by Palestinians in Israel.
"There's always a different tone in their conversation when they know that you're of Palestinian extraction," he said. "You sense that there's often a difference in the way they speak to you -- not always hostile, maybe more cautious, sometimes a little curious.
"Politically, the Israelis treat Palestinians so badly, and their views can be so negative. There is a lot of racism in Israel, but there's also a lot of racism in the Palestinian areas. I think that's just bred from the conflict. "
He volunteered at a clinic in Rahat, an impoverished Bedouin township near Beersheba, run by Dr. Younis Abu-Rabiah, the first Bedouin doctor in Israel and an old college buddy of his father's. There, too, he encountered prejudice.
"The Bedouins around here live in unrecognized settlements where they don't have electricity or water -- basically Third World conditions," he said.
Ben-Gurion University President Avishai Braverman told The Chronicle that he hoped the college, with outreach programs to encourage Arab students and foster understanding between Jews and Muslims, would serve as a bridgehead for peace between the troubled communities.
"This is the city of Abraham, whose sons were Ishmael, the father of the Arabs, and Isaac, the father of the Jews," he said. "It's very difficult to be an Arab in Israel. It's very difficult to be a Jew in the Middle East. My hope is that the disengagement from Gaza this summer will be the beginning of the two-state solution. This is the only way to create harmony in this holy land, and this is the spirit symbolic of this university."
Dakwar hopes to embody that spirit by using his experience to foster peace through medical cooperation. He said he had perfected his shaky Arabic, learned Hebrew and become better acquainted with his culture and roots.
In July, he will begin a residency in internal medicine at the State University of New York Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, but he said he hoped to return to his homeland later and help build the Palestinian medical system.
"Ultimately, I would enjoy working in the Palestinian community," he said. "This helped me understand how Israeli medicine works. Hopefully, I can use that knowledge to help people on the other side."
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Post by pieter on Jun 2, 2006 15:10:33 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Jun 2, 2006 15:29:24 GMT -7
And about the Israeli- Palestinian peace coaltion, who are active in various countries, organising lectures, cultural events and meetings of Palestinians and Israeli's living aboroad in Europe or the USA. I attended a two of their meetings in the Catholic Moses and Ahron church in Amsterdam. It was good to see Israeli's, Dutch jews, Palestinians and christians in one room, discussing and arguing peacefully and with strong determination for their cause "peaceful coexistance between the two people, in a time (during the second intifada) that both the people could be considered traitors by their compatriots, because many Israeli's object every contact with Palestinians, which are not strictly economically, and many Palestinians regard compatriots who have contact with Israeli's contaminated by the virus of Zionism, and traitors (too), who should be punished or attacked. mondediplo.com/2002/04/02solutionwww.peacenow.org.il/site/en/homepage.aspThe rights of Arab Israeli's: www.adalah.org/eng/staffboard.phpIsraeli Human rights organisation: www.btselem.org/English/The Foundation for Middle East Peace (FMEP); www.fmep.org/analysis/articles/the_last_conquest_of_jerusalem.html |
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Post by bescheid on Jun 2, 2006 16:16:05 GMT -7
Pieter Upon review {I am slipping back into my office mind set} of the information you have so kindly forwarded. My mind was temporary stunned by the amount of interest you have displayed and foremost of all, the amount of information and knowledge you possess of this matter. In friendly off record conversation: Pieter, I do not disagree with you, well perhaps a little. With the Palestinians (and very generalizing) over the many years of the Israeli/Arafat conflicts. There is little excuse for the Palestinians to not have seen through that idiot of Arafat many years past. The man was way over his time as a former military Sergeant under the British, and then to continue his mind set from those former struggle years to the present time. Now, with the new Palestinian Chairman of Mahmoud Abbas {Abu Mazon}, a new page of life was laid as an opportunity of coming to terms with the poverty and want in their land first. Then coming to resolutions with the Israelis next. electronicintifada.net/bytopic/people/112.shtmlBut, no, the idiot chose instead to rattle his cane at the Israelis and throw petrol onto a hot stove, thus destroying his/their credibility to both them selves, the Israelis and a possible valuable allie, The American Administration. With that bad move, he lost out on international assistance in the rebuild and industrial expansion of his nation, he failed him self and the people he represents. There was a chance of eventual self relience with an industry base providing jobs and opportunities of a vastly increased economy. No, I do not believe these people will ever ellivate thems selves out of the class of camel drivers they have always been, and deserve little more today. Their poverty is of their own creation and making. The endless winds of time and the ever patient desert will be the judgement. I am not a resident in Israel and as such, do not carry the flavour of the times and air there. But, I would venture to say, if I were to face into the air in the direction of the Palistinian border, it would be grit in my teeth and not a smile. Charles |
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Post by bescheid on Jun 2, 2006 16:34:35 GMT -7
Pieter
Not to beat a fisch to death with a small stick, but, thought to perhaps share this with you. The origin is from the Negotiations Affairs Department {NAD} You country is a valuable contributor to its existance, and as that of Sweden, Danmark, United Kingdom, there is another nation, just fail to bring it to mind at the moment.
{The Palestinian Prisoners' Agreement}
(29 May, 2006)
The following text is an unofficial English translation of “The Document of National Agreement” signed by imprisoned Palestinian leaders.
This document was originally released on 11 May, 2006.
Out of a great feeling of national and historic responsibility, due to the risks that threaten our people, in order to strengthen the internal Palestinian front and to protect national unity and the unity of our people at home and in exile and to confront the Israeli project whose aim is to impose an Israeli solution and destroy the dream of our people and its right to establish an independent Palestinian state enjoying full sovereignty, a project and a design that the Israeli government intends to implement during the coming period based on the construction and completion of the racist wall, the Judaization of Jerusalem, the expansion of settlements, the seizure of the Jordan Valley, the annexation of large parts of the West Bank and preventing our people from exercising its right of return.
In order to preserve the achievements and accomplishments of our people gained through a long march of struggle, in honor of our great people’s martyrs, the suffering of its prisoners and the pain of its wounded, and since we are still going through a period of liberation, national and democratic in its nature, which demands the adoption of a political strategy of resistance in conformity with this nature, to make the comprehensive Palestinian national dialogue succeed in accordance with the Cairo Declaration and the urgent need for unity, we present this document (The Document of National Agreement) to our great and steadfast people, President Mahmoud Abbas, the leadership of the Palestine Liberation Organization, Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, the Council of Ministers, the Chairman and Members of the Palestine National Council, the Chairman and Members of the Palestinian Legislative Council, all Palestinian forces and factions, all NGOs and popular organizations and leaders of the Palestinian public opinion at home and in exile. We hope that you will consider this document a complete one and that it will receive the support and agreement of all of you, and will contribute mainly in reaching a Palestinian national accord:
1. The Palestinian people at home and in exile seeks to liberate its land and realize its rights to freedom and independence, its right of return and its right to self-determination, including its right to establish an independent state with Jerusalem as its capital on all the land occupied in 1967, guaranteeing the right of return for the refugees, liberating all the prisoners and detainees on the basis of our people's historic right in the land of its forefathers, the Charter of the United Nations, international law, and what has been guaranteed by international legitimacy.
2. To expedite the realization of what was agreed upon in Cairo in March 2005 regarding the development and activation of the role of the PLO, and the joining of Hamas and Islamic Jihad to this organization as the sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people wherever they exist; and in line with developments in the Palestinian arena in accordance with democratic principles and to emphasize the fact that the PLO is the sole and legitimate representative of our people, in a way that would enable it to carry out its responsibilities in leading our people at home and in exile, in mobilizing them, and in defending their national, political, and human rights in all fora, regional and international. The national interest requires that a new national council be formed before the end of 2006 to ensure the representation of all the forces, factions, national and Islamic parties, and groups everywhere, including all sectors, institutions, organizations and personalities on the basis of proportional representation, activity, and effectiveness in the struggle, in politics, in the social sphere, and in popular domains; and to protect the PLO as a broad umbrella organization, a comprehensive national coalition, and a national framework unifying all Palestinians at home and abroad as the highest political authority.
3. To uphold the Palestinian people's right to resist and to uphold the option of resistance by all means, and concentrate the resistance in the territories occupied in 1967, alongside political action and negotiations and diplomatic work; our people’s right to continuing popular resistance against the occupation in all its forms, places and policies; and to stress importance on expanding the participation of all sectors, fronts, groups and the masses of our people in this popular resistance.
4. To devise a Palestinian plan for comprehensive political action, unifying the Palestinian political discourse based on the program of Palestinian national consensus, Arab legitimacy, and those international resolutions that are fair to our people, to be represented by the PLO, the PA, the President and government, the national and Islamic factions, civil society groups, public figures and organizations in order to reactivate, develop and mobilize Arab, Islamic, and international political, financial, economic and humanitarian support for our people and our national authority; to mobilize the support of our people's right to self-determination, freedom, return and independence; and to confront the Israeli plan to impose the Israeli solution on our people, and stand up to the unjust siege on us.
5. To protect and strengthen the Palestinian National Authority as the core of the future state. This Authority was founded by our people’s struggle, sacrifices and blood and by the suffering of its children. The higher national interest requires respect for the temporary constitution of this Authority, and the laws in effect, respect for the responsibilities and authorities of the President elected by the will of the Palestinian people in free, democratic and fair elections, and respect for the responsibilities and authorities of the government which was granted confidence by the parliament. It is important and necessary to assure creative cooperation between the presidency and the government, to engage in joint action, to convene periodic meetings between them to settle any disputes through brotherly dialogue on the basis of the temporary constitution and the higher national interest. It is also necessary to carry out a comprehensive reform of all national institutions, particularly the judiciary at all levels, and to implement its decisions, and strengthen the rule of law.
6. To form a government of national coalition in such a way as to guarantee the participation of all parliamentary blocs, particularly Fatah and Hamas, and the political groups who want to participate on the basis of this document and a joint program designed to alleviate the Palestinian situation locally, at the inter-Arab level, regionally and internationally; and confront challenges with a strong national government that enjoys Palestinian popular and political support from all groups, as well as Arab and international support, and can carry out the program of reform, combat poverty and unemployment; and provide the best possible assistance to the sectors that endured the burdens of steadfastness, resistance and the Intifada, and were the victims of Israeli criminal aggression, particularly the families of martyrs, the injured, and the owners of houses and properties destroyed by the occupation, as well as the unemployed and the graduates.
7. The management of negotiations falls under the authority of the PLO and President of the PA on the basis of upholding and realizing Palestinian national objectives, provided that any final agreement be presented to the new Palestine National Council to ratify or be put up to public referendum wherever possible.
8. Liberating the prisoners and detainees is a sacred national duty that must be carried out by all national and Islamic groups and factions, the PLO, the PA, the PA President and government, the PLC and all resistance formations.
9. Efforts must be redoubled to support and attend to refugees’ needs, and defend their rights. A popular representative conference of the refugees must be convened, which would yield agencies to follow up on reaffirming the right of return, upholding it, and calling on the international community to implement Resolution 194 which calls for the right of refugees to return and their compensation.
10. To work to form a united resistance front called the "Palestinian resistance front" to lead and carry out the resistance against occupation, unify and coordinate resistance actions and form a unified political authority for it.
11. To adhere to the democratic path, by holding general and regular free, democratic and fair elections according to the law for the Presidency, legislature, and local and municipal councils; to respect the principle of the peaceful rotation of power; and to pledge to protect the democratic Palestinian experience and democratic choice and their results; to respect the rule of law, the necessary and public freedoms, freedom of the press, and equality between citizens in rights and duties without discrimination; and to protect the gains made by women, which must be further developed and strengthened.
12. To reject and condemn the unjust siege on our people led by the United States and Israel, and call upon Arabs, publicly and officially to support the Palestinian people and the PLO and its PA; and to call upon Arab governments to implement the Arab summit’s political, financial, economic, and public resolutions that are in support of our people, their steadfastness, and their national cause; to reaffirm that the PA is committed to the Arab consensus and to joint Arab action.
13. To call on the Palestinian people to unite and join forces in supporting the PLO, the PA, the President and the government, and to support steadfastness and resistance in the face of the aggression and siege, and rejecting the interference in internal Palestinian affairs.
14. To reject all forms of disunity, division and what leads to sedition, and to condemn the use of weapons, regardless of the justifications, to settle internal disputes; to ban the use of weapons between the children of one people and to reaffirm the sacredness of the Palestinian blood; the commitment to dialogue as the only means through which to resolve disputes, to express opinions by all means, including opposing the Authority and its decisions in accordance with the law; and the right of peaceful protest, organizing rallies and demonstrations and strikes provided they are peaceful, clear of weapons, and do not transgress on people and their property or public property.
15. The national interest requires searching for the most appropriate means to continue to engage our people and their political forces in Gaza in their new situation in the battle for freedom, return and independence, and the liberation of the West Bank and Jerusalem to ensure the steadfast Gaza Strip becomes a backbone and real force for the steadfastness and resistance of our people in the West Bank and Jerusalem. The national interest requires a reevaluation of the most successful ways and means of struggle against the occupation.
16. To reform and modernize the Palestinian security apparatus and its sectors to make it more able to carry out its role in defending the nation and citizens, confront occupation and aggression, maintain public order and security, implement laws, end lawlessness and the public display of guns, confiscate the weapons of lawlessness, which greatly harm the resistance and damage its image and threaten the unity of Palestinian society. It is also necessary to coordinate and organize the relations between the forces and resistance groups, and to organize and protect their weapons.
17. To call on the legislative council to continue to issue laws that regulate the work of the security institutions and their different branches, and to enact a law that would ban political party membership (action) for those who are members of the security bodies, and commitment to an elected political authority stipulated by law.
18. To work to expand the role and presence of international solidarity committees and peace-loving groups, to support the steadfastness of our people and its just struggle against occupation and settlements, the racist separation wall politically and regionally, in order to implement the ICJ ruling regarding the removal and illegality of the wall and the settlements.
Signed by:
Marwan Barghouti, Fatah, secretary general
Sheik Abdel Khaliq al-Natsche, Hamas, senior leadership
Sheik Bassam al-Saadi, Islamic Jihad
Abdel Rahim Malouh, PFLP, deputy secretary general
{Charles}
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Post by sciwriter on Jun 2, 2006 17:23:09 GMT -7
Guys, read some articles by Edward Said: www.edwardsaid.org/Palestinians may need Israel to help them build a joint Socialist-Islamic State similar to France's involvement in Algeria.Carl |
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Post by bescheid on Jun 3, 2006 11:50:01 GMT -7
In respect to the Palestinians need of Israel, I would strongly suspect it is the other way. The Palestinians need work in Israel. It is a certainty that Israel needs not that of Palestine, other then more land for building homes for people to live in.
And freedom from young ladies blowing them selves up in public areas. It is difficult to enjoy a day of shopping with blown body parts and flying glass around.
Charles
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Post by pieter on Jun 3, 2006 15:55:34 GMT -7
In respect to the Palestinians need of Israel, I would strongly suspect it is the other way. The Palestinians need work in Israel. It is a certainty that Israel needs not that of Palestine, other then more land for building homes for people to live in. And freedom from young ladies blowing them selves up in public areas. It is difficult to enjoy a day of shopping with blown body parts and flying glass around. Charles Charles, “The Document of National Agreement” signed by imprisoned Palestinian leaders in Israeli prison is a good deal for the Palestinian population, and does not change anything on the Israeli side. It is a plea for a National Front of all Palestinian factions, to unite it's fighting power, to have a national coalition government and to have a Palestinian state in the Gaza strip, the Westbank (without Israeli settlement) and Eastern-Jerusalem as it's capital. Israel will simply ignore or strongly oppose this plan, because it will never accept a separated Jerusalem -cold war Berlin stile-. And Israel will not give up easily the large settlements in the West bank that became towns, Qedumim and Alfe Menashe near Nablus, Ariel (in the Middle of the Westbank), Modi'in Illit Givat Ze'ev next to Ramallah, Pisgat Ze'ev (above Jerusalem) and Mal'aleh Adumim (which is in fact an outpost, a sort of subburb neigbourhood of Jerusalem), Har Homa and Gilo (inbetween Jerusalem and Bethlehem) and Kefar Etzion (South-West of Bethlehem abd above Hebron). The settlements which the Kadima-labour government wants to give up are smaller and of less importance to Israel in strategic point of view, and populated by hard core ideological orthodox-zionists from the National-religious camp, who are getting increasingly hostile to the Israeli army, police and borderpolice. These settlers are far right Messianic inspired religious and nationalist fanatics who will not give up an inch of holy land they captured. They see the Israeli government as a weak and surrending power and a traitor to their cause, total occupation of all the land of Israel and the transfer of the Palestinian to the real Palestine as they see it, Jordan. Within Israel these settlers are supported by a the rightwing Likud party and the far right parties, and outside Israel by rightwing Jews and Christians in America and Europe. The strongest supporters in the world of Israel are the USA and Germany (remember the strong ties and cooperation between the Bundesnachrichtendienst and the Mossad, and the secret arms shiploads from Germany to Israel). In my opinion it is hard to judge about Israel and Palestine, when I have never been there, and spoken with both peoples. We have always the colored view of our reporters and journalists from our newspapers, magazines and TV journals and documentries. Here in Western Europe I am influenced by the Dutch, Flemish, German and British TV (BBC) and CNN (Europe), the Haaretz newsletter I read daily, the Economist, Newsweek and occasionaly der Spiegel and Frankfurther Alggemeine zeitung, Wikedpedia, jewishvirtuallibrary, and Palestinian sources. Europeans are often to Neutral and diplomatic in their standpoints, Americans are taking a tougher standpoint, and Israeli's and Palestinians have their National visions. I try to find a ballance between all those standpoints, and often find myself more on the Israeli/American side than on the European or Palestinian side. Why? Because in there is no democracy or honesty in any Arab country, the Arab rulers lie and cheat, oppress and rob their populations. Their system is corruption! Palestine (Gaza and the Westbank) is no exception on that, with the strong roots of the corrupt, violent and machiavellist Fatah leaders, Militiamen, politicians and police, next to the extremist obscurantist green (Hamas) and Black (islamic Jihad) forces of the political Islam. A population which has surrended itself to "the Cultus of Death" of the Suicide bombings, hate propaganda, and indoctrination of little children will not be able to built up a healthy society. One thing Israeli's share with Europe and America and that is that they share our vision of the holyness of life, that life is precious, and the Jewsih saying "Who saves one life saves humanity" is the core fo that belief. Israel has a democracy and freedom of speech and so expression, which is an integral part of the Jewish faith and culture, and they share that with christians. The Policies of Israel in their internal and external affairs may not be always correct, their military occupation has done great harm, but in the same the Israeli press and human rights- and peace activists objected the treatment of palestinians and other oponents of the Israeli government and Zionist organisations. In Haaretz I read about extremist Israeli settler violence and wrongdoings by the Israeli army, just like I read about Palestinian terror against Israeli civilians. Some views: Moledet: www.moledet.org.il/english/Zeev Jabotinsky en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_JabotinskyDavid Ben-Gurion en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-GurionAvraham Stern www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/stern.htmlKadima party en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KadimaIrgun Tsvai Leum (Etzel) www.etzel.org.il/english/ |
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Post by pieter on Jun 3, 2006 16:17:20 GMT -7
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Post by pieter on Jun 3, 2006 18:38:12 GMT -7
My contribution on Israel was more focussed on the right wing of Israeli politics, here some info about the left camp; Amir Peretz, Defense Minister of Israel and the current leader of the Labour Party, has developed a new platform for Labor that calls for the creation of a permanent Palestinian state and a plan to "lease" the West Bank settlement blocs from the Palestinians. The platform contains a so-called "Hong Kong principle," which refers to the agreement between Great Britain and China in 1898 where Great Britain leased Hong Kong for 99 years. China regained sovereignty over Hong Kong in 1997, and pledged that it would keep it democratic character. Peretz wants to do the same with the West Bank, where he would "lease" the settlement blocs of Ma'ale Adumim, Gush Etzion and Ariel from the Palestinians in exchange for money or land. The platform also outlines a timetable for renewed peace negotiations with the elected Palestinian leadership, which would not include an agreement for a temporary Palestinian state. Peretz believes that a temporary Palestinian state based on the conditions of ending violence and terrorism is not a good solution because the violence will only continue against Israel. Israel would only consider acting unilaterally, as it did with the implementation of the disengagement plan from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, if negotiations failed. Under Peretz, Israel would not conduct negotiations with Hamas, even if they are elected to the Palestinian government. All outposts must be immediately dismantled and removed because they undermine the peace process, according to the platform. Peretz has been highly critical of Ariel Sharon because he says he gives more money to the establishing of settlements and outposts and ignores the Galilee and Negev regions inside Israel proper. The platform also states that Jerusalem is the undivided capital of Israel and the Jewish people, but will consider giving the Palestinians a capital in the surrounding villages and towns by raising the issue of municipal boundaries. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_Peretz |
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Post by bescheid on Jun 4, 2006 12:02:56 GMT -7
Peiter First of all, I as a person, am very very pro-Israel. But, also very realistic of my object of admiration. For there is a reason for every thing. Very few things in life is accidental, if the veil of darkness is lifted by the light of day. Then the view is very often not believed or is dismissed by delusion of preconceived concepts. As such, is also Israel. It is a strong nation, fought for and won only through determination, good weapons and a strong supply line chain. But, it {Israel} must be viewed in a realist manner of actuality. The existence of Israel is as it is, because a lesser people were over come and moved out. It is a method that is not alien over the sands of time. For some one to live, some times a people must be made to not live, or get out. In this case, it is a superior people over a lesser people. Sounds harsh? Well, perhaps not so. As an example, the Americans destroyed the Indian races that blocked the advance of a European derived race. And as such, developed the land from a hunter/gatherer land, into a vibrant modern nation. The Middle East is not that different. Only the visual concepts are different. www.pmwatch.org/pmw/snakebite/Wars.htmlCharles |
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Post by jimpres on Jun 6, 2006 7:54:47 GMT -7
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