Israeli Strike Prompts Hamas to Drop Truce

[Jaga]

This news has nothing to do with Poland but it made me mad. DO you remember how much we heard about any suicide bomb by Palestinians? Israel artullery strike (not a suicide bomber, the official military unit) was shooting the beach killing at least 10 Palestinian civilians, between them the mother and the child and....
this is not news! Why?

Death on the beach: seven Palestinians killed as Israeli shells hit family picnic

Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
Saturday June 10, 2006
The Guardian


A barrage of Israeli artillery shells rained down on a busy Gaza beach yesterday, killing seven Palestinians, three of them children. The attack put further strain on the 16-month truce between Israel and the governing Hamas movement.
Witnesses described several explosions that also injured dozens of other people who lay on the beach, screaming and pleading for help. Some ran into the sea for fear of more shells hitting the sands at Beit Lahia, in the north of the Gaza strip.


Article continues

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Among the dead were three children, aged one, three, and 10. Their sister was swimming and survived.
The beach was packed with picnicking families enjoying the Muslim day of rest, and the explosions landed among them, scattering body parts along the dunes. Television footage showed a woman and a child laying dead on the sand, and another child screaming in agony while a lifeless man was carried away by an ambulance crew.

Associated Press reported that a tearful man held the limp body of what appeared to be a girl or young woman. "Muslims, look at this," he shouted.

The Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, called the killings a "bloody massacre" and demanded international intervention.

"No doubt what's going on in Gaza is a bloody massacre against our people, our civilians, without discrimination," he said. "I call upon the international community, the UN security council, the quartet [the EU, the US, Russia and the UN], to put an end to this Israeli killing policy."

...
www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1794536,00.html#article_continue

[Jaga]

The Israeli army said it "regretted" the deaths and called a halt to the shelling. It offered help to get the survivors to Israeli hospitals. The shells that hit Beit Lahia beach were the latest of more than 6,000 fired into the Gaza Strip by Israel over the past two months. One possibility is that they had fallen short when being fired at areas on the outskirts of Beit Lahia used by armed Palestinian groups to launch rockets into Israel.

"The military definitely would not target a beach full of people," said an army spokesman. The military said that although many of the shells fired yesterday were from Israeli gunboats, it believed the explosives that hit the beach were from army artillery. Israel said it has fired thousands of artillery shells into the Gaza Strip in response to armed Palestinian groups such as Islamic Jihad firing hundreds of homemade rockets into Israel. Israeli shells have killed about 15 civilians this year, including five children. The Palestinian rockets have not claimed any lives but have wounded several Israelis.

Human rights groups have described the persistent Israeli shelling as a form of collective punishment, particularly after the military changed its rules to allow shells to explode within 100 metres of a built-up area.

[piwo]

admin said:

The Israeli army said it "regretted" the deaths and called a halt to the shelling. It offered help to get the survivors to Israeli hospitals. The shells that hit Beit Lahia beach were the latest of more than 6,000 fired into the Gaza Strip by Israel over the past two months. One possibility is that they had fallen short when being fired at areas on the outskirts of Beit Lahia used by armed Palestinian groups to launch rockets into Israel.

"The military definitely would not target a beach full of people," said an army spokesman.


Human rights groups have described the persistent Israeli shelling as a form of collective punishment, particularly after the military changed its rules to allow shells to explode within 100 metres of a built-up area.

I agree completely that the Israeli army did not indiscriminately fire on a beach. They have image issue's and prejudices against them enough to do such an act, when most of the world also seems to hate them.

Short rounds are nothing new to military actions: have a very good friend badly wounded in an exercises by one such "short round".

As for Human rights "experts", if the cowards do their deed in population centers, they invite disaster and have no area to complain of the response.

[bescheid]

This was a terrible situation with those deaths. But, the fact remains, if not for a reason for public safety, that requires shelling of these areas. The situation would not have occurred.

The Palestinians and their management just seem not to figure this out.

The below is an older url, but exemplifies the situation as it stands in real life.

Very few things are accidental in life, there remains a reason for ever thing, the problem is figuring out the reason.

www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3116961,00.html

well darn, the url is overly too long, cut and past should do it,
sorry..


Charles

[pieter]

I really wanted to copy and past this out of your URL Bescheid, so I did:

"We condemn this attack

We, the Palestinians of Gaza, condemn this attack against civilians, though they are illegal occupiers of our land, but their gouverment has decided to quit the occupied land in Gaza, so no more firing should be originated from the liberated lands. Gaza Strip should be a good example of how we can co-exist with our neighbours, so we all can raise our children in peace.
Salameh , Gaza (07.24.05) "

Israel should be very carefully in it's response to Palestinian terror, and use the right tactics, means and arms
in it's retaliation strikes. I would prefer to see the Israeli's use their special forces from the army, police and
secret services ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Bet ), Mossad and border police in the territories, not the
brutal force of tanks, helicopters and artillery.

They have their special trained Arab speaking troops, Druze and Beduin units and even former SLA (South Lebanese
Army) people (who fled to Israel after the Israeli's left Southern Lebanon).
Israel uses operational commando's in devision strength in the occupied territories.
Since 1990 there were five new mechanical infantry batalions for the Gaza strip (which is left now) and the Westbank.
The can oppress riots (read Intifadah), but are not special trained forces, but trained as regular conventional army
units, as mechanical infantry units. It's like when the American Airborn division would run as NY or LA riotpolice.

In my view the Israeli's uses to strong arms in to densly populated area's, where to many civilians are killed
during the years (children, women -mothers-, elderly and schoolkids).
I know abou the ongoing terror against Israeli citizens, but you can't kill ordinairy Palestinians in an eye for
and eye, tooth for a tooth manner.

The Israeli's should use the Field Intelligence and Millitary Intelligence (AMAN) special forces, more effectivly,
such as the Unit T'zasam, for special reconaissance missions in Palestian area's, and Unit 54 who attrackts
and accompanies people, and the more on Egypt oriented Mistaravim ( an Arab looking) unit for infiltrations
and secret missions in Egypt. These folks look the same as local Arabs in the area's they are sent to.
Sayeret MATKAL (UNit-269), the most important terror fighting unit (uses the long experiance of Unit-101;
and trained by the British SAS and American SEAL and Delta-units since 1974).
The terror fighting school UNit-707 is one of the heaviest in the world with land, air and (under) water
training, and traning in harsh climates (from arctic temperatures to dessert climates).
In my view the Israeli's should train and use more soldiers for these units, for special operations
aimed at killing terror cells, militia leaders, and production facilities (for Qassam rockets, bombs
and ammunition). F16's, Apache fighting yets and heavy tanks and artillery should not be used in
dense populated area's. Segregation of Israeli's and palestinians in livable area's for both peoples
is the only solution in this area. Unfortunately, because I don't like Appartheid.

Pieter

P.S.- It will take decades to heal wounds, before Israeli's and Arabs can be at peace
with eachother. The mutual hatred, racism and xenophobia is so high that it's
hard for Jews and Arabs to live in even one country (Israel/Palestine).

[bescheid]

This is the type of activity that is an ongoing situation in Israel:

Please have patience with cut and past of the url


www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3116951,00.html

What do you do? and how to do it?


Charles

[sciwriter]

IMO there's nothing much we can do. Israelis and Palestonians must negotiate. Carl

[Jaga]

More Palestinian civilians are dead:

Do I hear any uproar of critique like after the suicider bus strikes? Nope....

GAZA, June 13 — Eight Palestinian civilians were killed and more than 40 wounded on Tuesday by an Israeli missile strike on Islamic militants, further inflaming Palestinian rage over the death of a family on Friday from what residents said was an errant Israeli shell.

www.nytimes.com/2006/06/13/world/middleeast/13cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1150257600&en=e867f5ec000ad1ba&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[pieter]

admin said:

More Palestinian civilians are dead:

Do I hear any uproar of critique like after the suicider bus strikes? Nope....

GAZA, June 13 — Eight Palestinian civilians were killed and more than 40 wounded on Tuesday by an Israeli missile strike on Islamic militants, further inflaming Palestinian rage over the death of a family on Friday from what residents said was an errant Israeli shell.

www.nytimes.com/2006/06/13/world/middleeast/13cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1150257600&en=e867f5ec000ad1ba&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Jaga,

It is not nice to say or to admit it and even quoting it, but a Dutch journalist who
has been to Israël and the occupied territories said it like this "When I was here
I felt connected to the Israeli's because they liked the same Western rock music
I liked, watched the same Hollywood movies I saw, wear the same clothes I do,
are bothered about the pollution and traffic jams as I do, but with the Palestinian
Arabs I felt little connection, did not understand their music, culture, heritage,
and did not shared the things I shared with the Israeli's".
I know this sounds ethnic, discriminatory, racists even, but that is the underlying truth
why Europeans and Americans care more about "their" Ashkenazi and Sephardi jews
who became Israeli's, then about the "alien" Arabs, who have another culture, religion
and history than ours. Israeli's look like our neigbours, friends and distant family members maybe, the Palestinian Arabs look like strangers.
It may sound (social) darwinist, but we only care about our own group, our own kind,
and the Israeli's have a Caucacian, European culture, and the Arabs not.
The journalist from the other hand reported neutrally and objectivly, he just spoke
in a brief moment about his personal, subjective point of view.
I just came out of the pub this evening and there I haerd a group of young men and women speaking hebrew (Israeli's), and they did not look like strangers in the pub to me.
I they had been Palestinian, they would have been alien.

Pieter

[bescheid]

peiter

It is not so strange, the Israelies, yes...for they are mostly from Europe and the USA, as so, would be not that different. Just the language. Whilst, the Arabs, are Arabs, for what better is there to be expected of them?

Charles

[pieter]

bescheid said:

peiter

It is not so strange, the Israelies, yes...for they are mostly from Europe and the USA, as so, would be not that different. Just the language. Whilst, the Arabs, are Arabs, for what better is there to be expected of them?

Charles

Yes, Charles the Hebrew language links Judaism to the Semitic Arabs.

Wikipedia encyclopedia writes about the scientific/biological links
between jews and Arabs the following:
Modern science, in contrast, identifies an ethnic group's common physical descent through genetic research, and analysis of the Semitic peoples suggests that they share a significant common ancestry. Though no significant common mitochondrial results have been yielded, Y-chromosomal links between Near-Eastern peoples like the Palestinians, Syrians and ethnic Jews have proved fruitful, despite differences contributed from other groups (see Y-chromosomal Aaron). Although population genetics is still a young science, it seems to indicate that a significant proportion of these peoples' ancestry comes from a common Near Eastern population to which (despite the differences with the Biblical genealogy) the term Semitic has been applied.

In Europe many jews have converted themselves to Christianity during the centuries,
to the Catholic and Protestant faiths, and by doing so mixed themselves with the Roman,
Latin, Germanistic and Salvian races. And besides that there were ofcourse many Jewish-christian relations. The blond (Silver) jews did not get their blue eyes and blond hair from themselves. But ofcourse many Jews stil have dark features like other Mediteranian people, brunettes or dark haired like the Spanish, Portugese, Southern-Italians and Greeks. And ofcourse many of them look the same as Arabs, Armenians and North-African Berbers, because they lived for hundreds of years next to these people, and shared the same culture, customs, habbits and often dress and cuisine.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

[bescheid]

{Yes, Charles the Hebrew language links Judaism to the Semitic Arabs.}

I understand where you are on this, and of course, you are correct....It is with simple logic that there is a genetic link between Jews and Arabs, as long as interracial marriage has not interfered. This is the prime reason of the insistence of marriage being kept only between Jews, also that of Arabs, to keep this blood line. As you have correctly brought forward, it is the Y Chromosomal Aaron DNA marker code. I am not sure at the moment, but believe the carrier is in the male.

For after all, the Arabs had the same Jewish father and Egyptian mother. It would be amusing would it not, to have our own blood test and have it come out positive for the Y Chromosomal Aaron marker? Just jesting of course, but, would there ever be a lingering dought?

This is off our topic, but, then, perhaps not. At this time with the civil/military war on gong in Iraq, there is the real danger of damage to some of the national libraries in Baghdad. A considerable amount of archival records are stored there of this country between two rivers (Iraq/Mesopotamia). Important to not only the Jewish/Arab histories, but also that of Christians (before they were Christians, Christians were primely Jews) But, there is a considerable amount of cuneiform tablets {records/stories}including the great flood {epic of Gilgamesh}, this were all contained in the Royal Library that of Ashurbanipal {Assyrian}.


Charles

[pieter]

bescheid said:

{Yes, Charles the Hebrew language links Judaism to the Semitic Arabs.}

I understand where you are on this, and of course, you are correct....It is with simple logic that there is a genetic link between Jews and Arabs, as long as interracial marriage has not interfered. This is the prime reason of the insistence of marriage being kept only between Jews, also that of Arabs, to keep this blood line. As you have correctly brought forward, it is the Y Chromosomal Aaron DNA marker code. I am not sure at the moment, but believe the carrier is in the male.

For after all, the Arabs had the same Jewish father and Egyptian mother. It would be amusing would it not, to have our own blood test and have it come out positive for the Y Chromosomal Aaron marker? Just jesting of course, but, would there ever be a lingering dought?

This is off our topic, but, then, perhaps not. At this time with the civil/military war on gong in Iraq, there is the real danger of damage to some of the national libraries in Baghdad. A considerable amount of archival records are stored there of this country between two rivers (Iraq/Mesopotamia). Important to not only the Jewish/Arab histories, but also that of Christians (before they were Christians, Christians were primely Jews) But, there is a considerable amount of cuneiform tablets {records/stories}including the great flood {epic of Gilgamesh}, this were all contained in the Royal Library that of Ashurbanipal {Assyrian}.


Charles

Interesting and well balanced reply Charles, and I agree about your concern about the
the national libraries in Baghdad. These sources are very important, not only for the Iraqi
Arab Muslims and Christians, and Israeli's and Diaspora jews, but for the entire world, because it's the history of our Monotheïst world faiths, and the histories of great civilizations. Many wars in the past and present have destructed a lot of worthy world inheritance. So in my view how farther we go how poorer we get, because every century
brought new destruction, and better technology and equipment for this destruction.
Rulers did not only try to erase peoples, nations and races, but also the cultural, scientific, literary and religious marks they left (read the old testament, remember the destruction of the Khazars in the Middle ages, see the book burnings, destruction of art
cemetries and sinagogues and chruches by the nazi's, and todays removal of churches
due to the secularisation process in Europe).

Back to the topic of Israel, which started with a awful topic, the destruction of a Palestinian family on a beach. What was left of the family is being treated in
Israeli hospitals. I am not clear who's side was responsable for the massacre,
the Israeli's or the Palestinians themselves, because shrapnel found and taken out
of the wounded was not simular to the ammunition used by the Israeli's.
This war between the Israeli's and Palestinians is not only a armed struggle, but
also a dirty Propaganda war, from both sides.

Under here an article form the liberal Israeli Haaretz newspaper:

Peres: Israel and Palestinians closer than ever to peace deal

By The Associated Press

Vice Premier Shimon Peres said Saturday that Israel and the Palestinians were closer to peace than they've been in the past 50 years.

"The distance between us is the shortest it's been for the last 50 years," Peres said at one-day security summit in the Central Asian nation of Kazakhstan. "The distance is very short, but the speed is very slow."

Peres said rather than focusing on political stumbling blocks to peace, they should turn their attention to economic issues, which might be easier to solve and could lead to political solutions.

"Perhaps instead of solving the political border issue, why not try to construct the relationship on the basis of economic relations," he said. "Maybe we can come to an economic peace before we come to a political peace. Then maybe political peace will come later."

On Friday, Peres said that Israel will soon hold talks with Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas.

"In a very short while, we shall start to talk with him," Peres said in an interview with foreign media in Kazakhstan.

Peres said Abbas was a viable negotiating partner who was legitimately elected by his people. He said Palestinians must choose between the path of compromise that politics offers and the "uncompromising" road of religion.

Abbas is locked in a power struggle with Hamas, which defeated his Fatah party in legislative elections in January. The dispute has triggered factional fighting. Hamas, whose charter calls for Israel's destruction, has refused to cave in to calls by Western donor nations to renounce violence and recognize Israel, despite growing hardship.

Abbas has pressured Hamas to accept a proposal that implicitly recognizes
Israel. Abbas has endorsed the plan as a way to restart peace talks and lift the crippling international sanctions that have rendered the government unable to pay salaries that sustain one-third of the Palestinian population.

"Foreign support won't come to a party which opposes peace, which doesn't
recognize Israel," Peres said on the eve of an international conference of heads of state and other leaders in Kazakhstan. Participants are expected to discuss security and other issues of mutual concern. A delegation from the Palestinian Authority is attending.

Visiting France this week, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Israel would set its borders with the Palestinians unilaterally if peace talks stay stalled.

"The plan is inevitable, it will be implemented, hopefully by agreement, but it will be implemented," he told reporters after meeting French President Jacques Chirac.

Olmert also insisted that he would never cede Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem's Temple Mount, revered as a holy site by Jews and Muslims. Olmert's aides have said previously that his withdrawal plan would include some mainly Arab areas of East Jerusalem.

Peres: Iran will cooperate on nuclear talks
Peres said Friday he believes Iran will eventually cooperate in nuclear negotiations with an emerging coalition of nations that is trying to get Iran to abandon its suspected development of nuclear weapons.

Peres also said Iran will suffer deepening poverty and isolation if it spurns international appeals for it to halt its nuclear activity.

Noting that Iran's population had more than doubled in the past 15 years, and that unemployment and drug addiction were worsening as the country devotes huge resources to military development, Peres said he doesn't think the Iranians "have much of a choice."

"Their choice is to keep the country poor and their arsenal rich. It cannot go on forever," he said. "The speeches are very impressive, but the reality is very depressive."

Peres' comments ahead of an international conference in Kazakhstan came as Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said in Shanghai that a six-nation incentive package aimed at getting his country to halt uranium enrichment was a step forward in resolving the dispute.

"Generally speaking, we're regarding this offer as a step forward and I have instructed my colleagues to carefully consider it," Ahmadinejad said Friday after meeting with Chinese President Hu Jintao.

Ahmadinejad's remark was the highest-level sign that Iran was preparing to negotiate over the package of incentives backed by the United States, three European countries, Russia and China. The proposal called for negotiations, with the U.S. to take part, and other incentives on the condition that Iran freeze its uranium enrichment program.

A nuclear-armed Iran, Peres warned, would pose a grave threat to efforts
to prevent other countries as well as terrorists from trying to acquire
nuclear weapons.

"If Iran will have a nuclear bomb, there will be many other countries that follow suit," Peres said. He declined to say whether Israel would favor military action if international talks with Iran fail.

"Iran is a world problem. We don't want to make it into an Israeli problem," he said. "Let others decide."

Iran denies accusations by the U.S. and others that it is seeking to develop nuclear weapons, saying its program would only generate energy.

Peres planned to attend a summit in Almaty on Saturday of heads of state and other leaders. The group of about two dozen countries and international organizations is called the Conference on Interactions and
Confidence-Building Measures in Asia. It last met in 2002.

Iran was expected to send a high-ranking official from its Foreign Ministry to the meeting, but Peres indicated that a meeting was unlikely.

"For the time being, they want to destroy rather than negotiate," he said in a reference to the Iranian president's call for Israel to be wiped off the map.

www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/727825.html

[pieter]

bescheid said:

I understand where you are on this, and of course, you are correct....It is with simple logic that there is a genetic link between Jews and Arabs, as long as interracial marriage has not interfered. This is the prime reason of the insistence of marriage being kept only between Jews, also that of Arabs, to keep this blood line. As you have correctly brought forward, it is the Y Chromosomal Aaron DNA marker code. I am not sure at the moment, but believe the carrier is in the male.

Charles

Charles,

Interracial marriage has been a widespread practise under jews, where that has been less the case under Arabs, this is not a problem under jews as long as the Mother is jewish,
for instance I have a girlfriend who's father is Dutch reformed (Protestant) and her mother is jewish. I know a guy who's father is a jew (a liberal rabby), and his mother is
a converted Catholic mother (converted in the liberal sinagogue), and since liberal giurs
(= conversions) are not recognised by the majority of relgious jews outside and inside Israel. So the jews have a maternal line. I don't know how this is with Arabs, but I think that Arabs have like Christians a Muslim identity more than an ethnic identity, so they accept and mixed with Berbers, Africans, and Asians too.
My fahter for instance said that when he was a Dutch (Colonial) soldier in Indonesia
(from 1948-1950), he had seen costal towns over there which were Arab.
In Indonesia the largest Muslim country in the world, was originally Hinduistic and Buddhist in the Middle ages, has an animistic element and was for a short while occupied by the Portugese, became Muslim, because of Arab merchants that entered it's coasts.