Pope 'meant no offence' to Islam

[pieter]

Pope 'meant no offence' to Islam

The Vatican has denied that Pope Benedict XVI intended any offence to the Muslim religion, after a speech touching on the concept of holy war.

Speaking in Germany, the Pope quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor who said the Prophet Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things.

The remarks have angered clerics and commentators around the Muslim world.

However, the Vatican said the Pope had wanted to make clear that he rejected violence motivated by religion.

The pontiff had not intended to offend Muslims, the Vatican said.

"It certainly wasn't the intention of the Pope to carry out a deep examination of jihad (holy war) and of Muslim thought on it, much less to offend the sensibility of Muslim believers," said chief Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi in a statement.

"It is clear that the Holy Father's intention is to cultivate a position of respect and dialogue towards other religions and cultures, and that clearly includes Islam."

But the statement has failed to quell criticism. In developments around the world:

Pakistan summoned the Vatican's ambassador to express regret over the remarks, as parliament passed a resolution condemning the comments
The head of the Muslim Brotherhood said the remarks "aroused the anger of the whole Islamic world"
Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniya condemned the Pope's comments
In Iraq, the comments were criticised at Friday prayers by followers of radical Shia cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.
The "hostile" remarks drew a demand for an apology from a top religious official in Turkey. The 57-nation Organisation of the Islamic Conference said it regretted the Pope's remarks

Violence and faith

The controversy comes on an important day for the Vatican, with Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, former Archbishop of Genoa, taking over as secretary of state.

Correspondents say Pope Benedict, who has been closeted with his chief advisers at his summer residence near Rome, is upset at the way in which his remarks have been interpreted.

But there is no sense of panic at the Vatican, he says, and preparation for the Pope's forthcoming visit to Turkey, a predominantly Muslim secular nation, next November, are going ahead as planned.

In his speech at Regensburg University, the German-born Pope explored the historical and philosophical differences between Islam and Christianity, and the relationship between violence and faith.

Stressing that they were not his own words, he quoted Emperor Manuel II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire, the Orthodox Christian empire which had its capital in what is now the Turkish city of Istanbul.

The emperor's words were, he said: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Benedict said "I quote" twice to stress the words were not his and added that violence was "incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul".

"The intention here is not one of retrenchment or negative criticism, but of broadening our concept of reason and its application," he added in the concluding part of his speech.

"Only thus do we become capable of that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today."

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5349578.stm

[pieter]

Other links:

edition.cnn.com/
www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/5/15/122217.shtml

[leslie]

Stressing that they were not his own words, he quoted Emperor Manuel II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire, the Orthodox Christian empire which had its capital in what is now the Turkish city of Istanbul.

from the Pope's speech.

So if they were not his own words, why did he quote somebody else in this way - he must have known he was stirring up a hornet's nest. And he is supposed to be an intelligent man, the spiritual leader of millions of people in the world!!!

[pieter]

leslie said:

Stressing that they were not his own words, he quoted Emperor Manuel II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire, the Orthodox Christian empire which had its capital in what is now the Turkish city of Istanbul.

from the Pope's speech.

So if they were not his own words, why did he quote somebody else in this way - he must have known he was stirring up a hornet's nest. And he is supposed to be an intelligent man, the spiritual leader of millions of people in the world!!!

Leslie,

I don't find it a very smart remark either. I thought the calm had returned after
the world wide riots following the Danish cartoons, know we are back where we
were. Will the next thing be that Christian (Catholic) churches will burn in Muslim
countries? And as a result of that Mosques in the West?

I hope not, and I hope that this will be a storm in a glass of water,
as we say in Dutch.

Pieter

[piwo]

pieter said:

I don't find it a very smart remark either. I thought the calm had returned after
the world wide riots following the Danish cartoons, know we are back where we were. Will the next thing be that Christian (Catholic) churches will burn in Muslim countries? And as a result of that Mosques in the West?

The reality is that the Muslim world is spoiling for this type of situation, where it doesn't matter if malice was meant or not. Any opportunity to cry for violence for against non-muslims will not be ignored: the 14th century emperor was astute. Any opportunity muslims have to condemn anything that doesn't walk hand in hand with their views will be an excuse for condemnation, violence and "jihad"... The world pretending otherwise is exactly what they did prior to the start of WWll: tip toe around the bully and hope he is appeased. The spirit of Neville Chamberlain is indeed alive and well: "If we just don't confront them, don't make them angry, and give them everything they want every time they speak up, we'll all be safe"..... yeah, right.

What, other then rotten dinosaur juice buried under their soil, have they contributed to humanity in the past several hundred years?

[bescheid]

piwo said:

pieter said:

I don't find it a very smart remark either. I thought the calm had returned after
the world wide riots following the Danish cartoons, know we are back where we were. Will the next thing be that Christian (Catholic) churches will burn in Muslim countries? And as a result of that Mosques in the West?

The reality is that the Muslim world is spoiling for this type of situation, where it doesn't matter if malice was meant or not. Any opportunity to cry for violence for against non-muslims will not be ignored: the 14th century emperor was astute. Any opportunity muslims have to condemn anything that doesn't walk hand in hand with their views will be an excuse for condemnation, violence and "jihad"... The world pretending otherwise is exactly what they did prior to the start of WWll: tip toe around the bully and hope he is appeased. The spirit of Neville Chamberlain is indeed alive and well: "If we just don't confront them, don't make them angry, and give them everything they want every time they speak up, we'll all be safe"..... yeah, right.

What, other then rotten dinosaur juice buried under their soil, have they contributed to humanity in the past several hundred years?

Piwo

I do like your spirit!! I tend to believe you do have the Arab type down to earth where it should be. They are masters of yelling and arguing for little or no reason. If the reasons are not sufficient, they will invent a reason. I would tend to believe though, if we were forced to use camels from the early times in that loused desert, our dispositions would most likely be just as nasty and probably passed on to our descendants as such.

And yes, I have in past had the pleasure of some Arab friends {and once out of their loused country, they drank the same stuff I did at the same bar}. It was the Arabs friends that taught me to eat with the hands, it was not as bad as it sounds. I think though, I felt more comfortable with Iranians.

Charles

[pieter]

bescheid said:

piwo said:

The reality is that the Muslim world is spoiling for this type of situation, where it doesn't matter if malice was meant or not. Any opportunity to cry for violence for against non-muslims will not be ignored: the 14th century emperor was astute. Any opportunity muslims have to condemn anything that doesn't walk hand in hand with their views will be an excuse for condemnation, violence and "jihad"... The world pretending otherwise is exactly what they did prior to the start of WWll: tip toe around the bully and hope he is appeased. The spirit of Neville Chamberlain is indeed alive and well: "If we just don't confront them, don't make them angry, and give them everything they want every time they speak up, we'll all be safe"..... yeah, right.

What, other then rotten dinosaur juice buried under their soil, have they contributed to humanity in the past several hundred years?

Piwo

I do like your spirit!! I tend to believe you do have the Arab type down to earth where it should be. They are masters of yelling and arguing for little or no reason. If the reasons are not sufficient, they will invent a reason. I would tend to believe though, if we were forced to use camels from the early times in that loused desert, our dispositions would most likely be just as nasty and probably passed on to our descendants as such.

And yes, I have in past had the pleasure of some Arab friends {and once out of their loused country, they drank the same stuff I did at the same bar}. It was the Arabs friends that taught me to eat with the hands, it was not as bad as it sounds. I think though, I felt more comfortable with Iranians.

Charles

Charles,

Iranians in reality hate Arabs more than they do hate Israeli's and Americans (like they show in their fake [orchestrated] demonstrations), because they stil hate the fact that
they were conquered hundreds of years ago. And that's why they want to be powerful
now in the Persian Gulf and the Arab world. The Arabs in the region nuts in their pants
for the Iranians. The Arab minority in the South-Western Ahwaz region is very opressed
by the Iranians. Much Shia's in Lebanon have Persian blood, and that is the region Iran
has so much influence in Lebanon. In Iraq there is a differance between Shia leaders with Arab Shia and Persian Shia roots.

Ubfortunately Piwo is right, but I stil do nut understand the point in the remark of the
German Pope? In Europe the Non-muslim majority and large Muslim minorities will clash sooner or later in the near future, because we have many little Bosnia's overhere, in France, Germany, England, Belgium and the Netherlands. Only the people don't know yet, that these city or civil wars will come. That is my apocalyptic vision of Europe.
And these clashes will not only be between Muslims and Non-muslims, like in the past wars that were fought between Katholics and Protestants, ended often in coalitions of Catholics and Protestants fighting other Catholics. It is my pessimistic view of Europe,
but the fact of history is that it repeats itself. If the economy goes down, there is enough poverty, and enough distress, extremists from both sides will attack eachother.
Ofcourse the Muslim-extremists will get help from some extreme-left and far-right
groups, that will have become bezerk in their hatred of America, Israel and the West in General. Hopefully this will just stay a bad scenario for a Hollywood B-movie.

Pieter

[bescheid]

pieter

Yes, you are correct with the bad blood between Arabs and Persians. In the work place, we had some Arab student/work study individuals. Their entire schooling and expenses were paid for by their government. Even the salaries they drew were paid monthly by accounts set up for their education.

The Iranians I worked with were actual temporary employees and they were very diligent with their work. They studied to learn and how to apply their training in the actual work environment.

I was given to thought of some thing you had mentioned of a very possible city or civil war brewing between Islamic minority and non-Islamic people in Holland. Would you suppose this to be a probable situation?

I was curios as the why, these people {Islamic minorities} have not assimilated into the general population as most immigrant people do. I realize it is usually a small minority as in practice, the majority of immigrant folk are for the most part, very hard working, and try to distance them selves from any situation that will jeopardize their standing in the given community.

But, even a small majority if properly organized and focused. Have the potential of a very serious situation. It becomes an urban warfare situation that is difficult to over come by conventional methods as practiced by the military and smaller police units. With out a unacceptable degree of property loss and casualty counts between all sides.

For the containment for systematic destruction is unacceptable within the mind sets of civilian authority. This being the entirety of property destruction within the contained area {this being entire blocks of buildings of both business and housing}. But, that is the most efficient manner of detainment and resolution of large dedicated armed combative crowds. World opinion then may be dealt with after the fact.

Smaller groups may be dispelled with the use of riot gas/riot units, and moved into closed in restricted areas for movement containment, for individual arrest and detainment.

All in all, it is a dirty business

Just thoughts

Charles

[pieter]

bescheid said:

pieter

Yes, you are correct with the bad blood between Arabs and Persians. In the work place, we had some Arab student/work study individuals. Their entire schooling and expenses were paid for by their government. Even the salaries they drew were paid monthly by accounts set up for their education.

The Iranians I worked with were actual temporary employees and they were very diligent with their work. They studied to learn and how to apply their training in the actual work environment.

I was given to thought of some thing you had mentioned of a very possible city or civil war brewing between Islamic minority and non-Islamic people in Holland. Would you suppose this to be a probable situation?

I was curios as the why, these people {Islamic minorities} have not assimilated into the general population as most immigrant people do. I realize it is usually a small minority as in practice, the majority of immigrant folk are for the most part, very hard working, and try to distance them selves from any situation that will jeopardize their standing in the given community.

But, even a small majority if properly organized and focused. Have the potential of a very serious situation. It becomes an urban warfare situation that is difficult to over come by conventional methods as practiced by the military and smaller police units. With out a unacceptable degree of property loss and casualty counts between all sides.

For the containment for systematic destruction is unacceptable within the mind sets of civilian authority. This being the entirety of property destruction within the contained area {this being entire blocks of buildings of both business and housing}. But, that is the most efficient manner of detainment and resolution of large dedicated armed combative crowds. World opinion then may be dealt with after the fact.

Smaller groups may be dispelled with the use of riot gas/riot units, and moved into closed in restricted areas for movement containment, for individual arrest and detainment.

All in all, it is a dirty business

Just thoughts

Charles

Charles,

I agree with you, Piwo and Jim on many points, especially your criticizm of Islam and Islamic groups. In your strategic solution you sound like the tough Dutch-Israeli Military Historian Martin van Creveld, who is often portrayed in the Netherlands as an hawk.
My statement about a civil war is hypothetical, and I hope that it never will come to that,
but you must be prepared. The fact is that many Muslims are not integrated, and don't want to be part of the Netherlands or any other European country they live in.
The reason of that is the dominance, doctrine, orthodoxy and segregationalist character of their faith and culture. Partly this has the exact same reason why orthodox or radical
christians hate the secular, hedonist and decadent Western society.
From another point of view these seperatist Muslims have common grounds with ideologees such as Marxism and Fascism. Because there is an element of class struggle,
which they portray as such "The poor exploited Muslim migrants, by their cruel Western
-Crussader and Jewish- exploiters", corporatism (within the community; the Muslims form their own informal economy on ethnic and religious base), and the radical minority
promotes and glorifies "the culture of violence and Death" (like the culture of war from the Nazi's). The German NPD admires Al Qiada in it's anti-Americanism, and there is proof that this German party had contact with extremist Muslims in Germany.
As you say yourself a majority of Non-Muslim and Muslim migrants;

are for the most part, very hard working, and try to distance them selves from any situation that will jeopardize their standing in the given community.

And about your question;

I was given to thought of some thing you had mentioned of a very possible city or civil war brewing between Islamic minority and non-Islamic people in Holland. Would you suppose this to be a probable situation?

I don't think this would start in Holland per se, because I think the conditions for a long period of civil unrest or clashes between groups within a country are "better" in France,
Belgium or Great-Britain. The Netherlands has simply less getto's than Britain or France,
but we must be aware that we don't create more Neukölns (a Berlin Arab neigbourhood)
here. The problem for foreigners her in the Nehterland is that the patience and tolerance of the Dutch people has gone, and for the Dutch that there are large part of their cities
which are occupied by people who don't share their culture, language and history and in some cases are ven hostile to them. The danger comes from mutual hostility and disunderstanding. The guilty ones are the politicians of the past and present, the employers of the past and the Unions of the past. They wanted cheap labour in the sixtees and seventees, and did nothing to integrate the people that came to our country,
because they thought that these people would leave. They did not give these immigrants propper language education, no cultural lessons, no integration course like in the USA.
So for decades we had people here who did not know the language, who got children and grandchildren, who speak poorly Dutch, have problems at school, and got involved in crime, drugs, violence and etc, etc. In the same time their kids got educated, some of them knew Dutch better than their fathers and mothers. These kids lost the respect for their fahters, who did humiliating low waged jobs (dirty and heavy work).
These Maroccan boys and young men looked down on their fathers as loosers, and created their own gang culture, with the code "Survival of the fittest", in drugs trade,
violent robery (I was robbed by them in 1991), being pimps (Lover boys who seduce younger naieve Dutch girls), or just hanging around on the street without a purpous in life.
The same thing with Paki's in London and Brighton, who terrorize their British, Hindu and Ukrainian neigbours, and take over streets and neigbourhoods.
And the Algerians, Maroccans, Tunesians and Africans in the Ban Lieus (French getto's) of Paris, Lyon and Marseille. The same thing in Belgain and German cities.
It is not a Dutch problem, but an European problem.
We have got an Underclass in Europe of 80 million people, who are both poor whites (impoverished unemployed working and middle classes, and white trash), mixed with unemployed immigrants, who are oftern already unemployed for decades.
This mix is very dangerous, very explosive for the near future, and think about all those
East-European, hard working new immigrants that are comming.
This 80 million lost people, are looking very negatively towartds these new newcommers,
I even heard migrants discriminating East-Europeans, which they see with envy.

Probably America has the same problems, with a lot of jobs being lost and
a lot of immigrants comming in. People are getting hostile, and want to
keep waht they got.

Pieter

[pieter]

Pope 'sorry' his speech is seen as hurtful to Muslims

By News Agencies

The Vatican said on Saturday that Pope Benedict XVI was sorry that his speech on Islam was interpreted as offensive to Muslims.

In a statement issued by the Vatican, the pope said he respects believers in Islam and hopes they will understand the true meaning of his speech.

In a speech on Tuesday the Pope repeated criticism of the Prophet Mohammad by the 14th century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus, who said everything the Prophet brought was evil "such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the Pope said.

"He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached,"' Benedict quoted the emperor as saying.

The remarks sparked outrage across the Islamic world.

The new Vatican secretary of state, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, said that the pope's position on Islam is unmistakably in line with Vatican teaching that the Church "esteems Muslims, who adore the only God."

"The Holy Father is very sorry that some passages of his speech may have sounded offensive to the sensibilities of Muslim believers," Bertone said in a statement.

Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood said the Vatican statement saying the Pope was sorry did not go far enough.

"We want a personal apology [from the Pope]. We feel that he has committed a grave error against us and that this mistake will only be removed through a personal apology," Muslim Brotherhood Deputy Leader Mohammed Habib told Reuters.

"Has he presented a personal apology for statements by which he clearly is convinced? No," he said.

Two churches in the West Bank were hit by firebombs early Saturday, witnesses and clergy said, and a group claiming responsiblity said the attacks were meant as a protest against the pope's comments about Islam.

The firebombs left black scorch marks on the walls and windows of a Greek Catholic and an Anglican church in the West Bank city of Nablus. Father Yousef Saada, a priest at the Anglican Church, said several firebombs hit the outside wall of the church.

"It is easy to worry," Father Yousef Saada said Saturday. "The atmosphere is charged already, and the wise should not accept such acts."

Ayman Daraghmeh, a Hamas legislator, denounced the attacks, and urged Palestinian police to do more to protect Christian sites.

In a phone call to The Associated Press, a group calling itself the "Lions of Monotheism" claimed responsibility. The caller said the attacks were carried out to protest the pope's remarks about Islam.

Iran condemned Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday for making what it called "a big mistake" in his comments on Islam and demanded an apology, the official Islamic Republic News Agency reported.

"The pope's expression contradicted his own leadership of a divine religion. Promotion of incorrect beliefs (about Islam) is considered a big mistake," Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Mohammad Ali Hosseini was quoted as saying.

Hosseini said the pope should "revise and correct" his remarks in order to prevent Muslims' indignation.

In the first reaction from a top Christian leader, the head of Egypt's Coptic Orthodox Church said in remarks published Saturday that Pope Benedict XVI's comments on Islam were "against the teachings of Christ."

Coptic Pope Shenouda III told the pro-government Al-Ahram newspaper that he didn't hear the pope's exact words, but that "any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ."

"Christianity and Christ's teachings instruct us not to hurt others, either in their convictions or their ideas, or any of their symbols - religious symbols," Shenouda was quoted as saying.

Egypt's Copts, whose liturgy follows Eastern Orthodox Christian traditions rather than the Vatican, account for an estimated 10 percent of Egypt's 73 million people.

Also on Saturday, Indonesians gathered outside of the Palestinian Embassy in Jakarta in protest over the pope's remarks.

On Friday night, some 2,000 Palestinians angrily protested against the pope in Gaza City, accusing him of leading a new Crusade against the Muslim world.

Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh Friday joined the growing chorus of criticism in the Muslim world against Pope Benedict XVI, saying he had offended Muslims everywhere.

Lebanon's most senior Shiite Muslim cleric on Friday denounced Pope Benedict XVI's recent remarks about Muslim holy war, and demanded the Pope personally apologize for insulting Islam.

"We do not accept the apology through Vatican channels ... and ask him [Benedict] to offer a personal apology - not through his officials - to Muslims for this false reading [of Islam]," Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah told worshippers in his Friday prayers sermon.

Fadlallah's words were some of the strongest yet in response to the pontiff's remarks on Islam's prophet Mohammed and holy war, during a speech this week in Germany, which angered many in the Muslim world.

"We call on the Pope to carry out a scientific and fastidious reading of Islam. We do not want him to succumb to the propaganda of the enemy led by Judaism and imperialism against Islam," Fadlallah said.

On Friday, Pakistan's parliament unanimously adopted a resolution condemning Benedict for making what it called "derogatory" comments about Islam, and seeking an apology. Hours later, its Foreign Ministry summoned the Vatican's ambassador to express regret over the remarks.

About 100 worshippers demonstrated after Friday prayers at Egypt's Al-Azhar mosque, the Sunni Arab world's most prominent institution, chanting "Oh Crusaders, oh cowards! Down with the Pope!"

Egypt's Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said on Friday Pope Benedict XVI must explain himself after insulting the Muslim world with "unfortunate" remarks about Islam and jihad.

"He has to explain himself, and tell us what exactly did he mean," Gheit told The Associated Press. "It can't just be left like that."

Many attributed the Pope's comments to a larger political bias against Muslims. "This is part of the whole war against Islam. Whenever we close a door on evil, they open another door," said an Egyptian man who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter.

"These Christians are all infidels. Benedict himself is an infidel and a blind man. Doesn't he see that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places were waged by Christians?" another worshipper said.One of the protest's organizers, a Muslim Brotherhood figure, shouted into a microphone, demanding an official apology from the Vatican.

Hundreds of Egyptian riot police wearing black helmets and carrying heavy
shields surrounded the mosque, preventing protesters from spilling over into the streets.

Fadlallah said he condemns "and protests in the strongest terms" the Pope's comments, "particularly his quoting without any occasion of the words of the emperor in which he insults Prophet Mohammed."

Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora instructed Lebanon's ambassador to the Vatican, Naji Abi Assi, to visit the Vatican Foreign Ministry to seek
clarifications on the pontiff's remarks, a Lebanese government official said Friday.

In neighboring Syria, the grand mufti, the country's top Sunni Muslim
religious authority, sent a letter to the pope saying he feared the pontiff's comments on Islam would worsen interfaith relations. Sheik Ahmad Badereddine Hassoun, a moderate cleric, said the comments "raise intellectual, cultural and religious problems between followers of religious faiths."

The letter, addressed to the Pope and delivered to the Vatican embassy in
Damascus, avoided sharp criticism however, reflecting tight control by Syria's secular regime.

"We expect that what has been attributed to your holiness is not true and hope we can all work together on spreading divine values that call for harmony, accord and cooperation," Hassoun wrote.

Notably, the most violent denunciation so far has come from Turkey - a
moderate democracy seeking EU membership, which Benedict plans to visit in November.

Salih Kapusuz, deputy leader of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's Islamic-rooted party, said Friday that Benedict's remarks were either "the result of pitiful ignorance" about Islam and its prophet, or worse, a deliberate distortion of the truths.

"He has a dark mentality that comes from the darkness of the Middle Ages. He is a poor thing that has not benefited from the spirit of reform in the Christian world," Kapusuz told Turkish state media. "It looks like an effort to revive the mentality of the Crusades."

"Benedict, the author of such unfortunate and insolent remarks, is going down in history for his words," he said. "He is going down in history in the same category as leaders such as Hitler and Mussolini."

Even Turkey's staunchly pro-secular opposition party demanded that the Pope apologize to Muslims before his visit. Another party led a demonstration outside Ankara's largest mosque, and a group of about 50 people left a black wreath outside the Vatican's diplomatic mission.

Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi has tried to defuse anger, saying the Pope had not intended to offend Muslim sensibilities and insisting that Benedict respected Islam. In Pakistan, the Vatican envoy regretted "the hurt caused to Muslims."

But Muslim leaders said outreach efforts by papal emissaries were not enough. "We do not accept the apology through Vatican channels ... and ask him [Benedict] to offer a personal apology - not through his officials," Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah - Lebanon's most senior Shiite Muslim cleric - told worshippers Friday in Beirut, Lebanon.

Rashwan feared the official condemnations could be the precursor for widespread popular protests. Already there have been scattered demonstrations in several Muslim countries.

"What we have right now are public reactions to the Pope's comments from political and religious figures, but I'm not optimistic concerning the reaction from the general public, especially since we have no correction from the Vatican," Rashwan said.

www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/763199.html
edition.cnn.com/
english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

[Jaga]

Pieter,

thanks for your very explanatory posts. I watched German news yesterday and they stated clearly that this was the university speech in which the pope was critizying both - the Christian fundamentalists and Muslim fundamentalists. Muslim extremists took it out of context and... a week after.

It reminds me the same situation like with the Dutch cartoons - to protest something just to show that "we, Muslims are untouchable and nobody should dare to question anything"

[bujno]

The situation is getting more and more weird. The pope did not say anything wrong, untrue or offending. He might have acted a liitle bit more 'politically' - that is true, but he really has nothing to excuse for. And he very clverely didn't - he said that he is sorry that his statement was understood as the offence.

[Jaga]

Bujno,

what bothers me - is that the commentaries in the US are just so shallow, they do not even explain what the speech was all about! It seems to me that the protesters are just in waiting trying to figure out what cause to choose to start protesting! It is so....naive!
I mean, does the pope need to apologize that he admitted that there are extreme muslims?

By the way, we should be releaved that our Polish pope was so loved and there was so little controversy surrounded him. This pope had it more difficult

[pieter]

admin said:

Pieter,

thanks for your very explanatory posts. I watched German news yesterday and they stated clearly that this was the university speech in which the pope was critizying both - the Christian fundamentalists and Muslim fundamentalists. Muslim extremists took it out of context and... a week after.

It reminds me the same situation like with the Dutch cartoons - to protest something just to show that "we, Muslims are untouchable and nobody should dare to question anything"

Jaga,

This is an important statement, because I only heard the fragement of the Bysanthian
Pope which criticized Islam. If this is true the Muslims are one sided in their reaction.
It always irritates me that Muslims can't have any criticizm, and that I never hear selfcriticizm (exept from a little minority of often secular Muslim intellectuals or dissidents
who have to fear for their lives). Actually I believe the Quatation of the Pope is correct, because Islam is spread with the Sword in Arabia itself, Persia, former ancient Greece (now Turkey), Northern-Africa, India, Yugoslavia and Spain.

If the Islam will be for instance the largest religion in Western-Europe, the separation between state and religion will fade away, politics, legislation, science and culture will
merge like in Muslim countries. In Muslim countries everything is defined by Islam,
period. I hope that it will never come that far, but some political correct, politicians worry
me (like our justice minister Donner).

Pieter

[pieter]

bujno said:

The situation is getting more and more weird. The pope did not say anything wrong, untrue or offending. He might have acted a liitle bit more 'politically' - that is true, but he really has nothing to excuse for. And he very clverely didn't - he said that he is sorry that his statement was understood as the offence.

You are right!