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Post by ludikundera on Jul 27, 2007 14:59:59 GMT -7
Not to be a nitpicker, but part of what you said is part of what I mean:
It's alright to say that Poles were "fiercely" anti-Semitic, but when we speak of Jewish anti-Polonism, which is rare and not very polite here in North America, we say that it was "unpleasant".
By doing this, I think we buy into language that distorts history. And when we repeat it, we distort history.
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bjk
Freshman Pole
Posts: 31
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Post by bjk on Nov 14, 2007 16:08:34 GMT -7
I believe that this is the right forum to post an experience that I had over the summer, that I believe will resonate with many other Polish emigres and Polish-Americans. Before discussing the actual event, I think its important to set the scene by briefly metioning my background. I was born, raised and educated in NYC. My father was a 'DP' ('Displace Person'), who came to NY in late 1950, after having spent the previous five years working as an interpreter/administrator for the British in their zone of occupation in Germany. From 1939 to 1945, he was a German prisoner of war in various 'Oflag' (officer camps), following capitulation of the Polish army, where he was a lieutenant. Growing up in the borough of Queens, he never discussed his experiences in these POW camps, despite many inquiries on my part. I am in possession of two photographs taken during his incarceration, one upon 'admission', and one taken some time later, and it is visually clear that he suffered significant deprivation. In the ~ 10 years since his death, I took it upon myself, as a Polish-American, to research as much as I could about this period of Polish history, and to learn what I could about the experiences of Polish prisoners of war. The excellent books published in the last ~ 15 years by Lucas and Davies, for ex, have helped in filling this knowledge void. Over the years, in newspapers, television and popular commentary, I was always puzzled by the virtual non-existence of any mention of Polish contribution to the eventual Allied victory of WW II, or of the significant human sacrifice of the Polish people. Especially here in the NY metro area, which has a sizeable Polish population, I wondered why, if Polish actions during WW II were mentioned at all, it was almost always accompanied by the charge of 'virulent anti-Semitism'. The hard, factual statistics alone re: (non-Jewish) deaths in concentration camps, numbering in the millions (fully 25% of the population) were never cited in any discussion of Polish wartime experience. As a student in one of the specialized NYC high school, not one mention of Poland, or its contributions and sacrifices to the Allied cause, was ever discussed. In this school, which was predominantly Jewish in both teaching staff and student population, I had never encountered or learned of any student whose parents had personal wartime experiences anything like those my father had. This unusual silence continued through my college years, and into my work experience. The more I learned about the activities of the Polish resistance, the Warsaw uprising of '44, and the stories that appeared, yearly, of elderly Polish Jews who told the world of their rescue (as children) at the hands of Polish peasants and nuns during this period, my astonishment over this continuing, deep-seated resentment of Poles, on the part of American Jews in particular, continued to grow.
In August of this past summer, I was enjoying a sandwich on a bench in front of a Greenwich Village restaurant, which was also shared by a woman in her ~ late 60's, and her granddaughter, in her ~ 20's. The older woman curiously asked me what I knew about American involvement in Central and South America in the '50's/60's. It seemed as if she was hoping for a particular answer from me, that would bolster some debate she perhaps was having with her granddaughter. I told her that I was no expert on this topic, but that I was aware that the US government had been criticized for 'heavy-handedness' in that area, during the Cold War. I did know, however, about the experiences of Poles, and other Eastern Europeans, who suffered significant deprivation in the period immediately following WW II, up to the collapse of Soviet Communism by the early 1990's. For the benefit of her granddaughter, I decided that I would relate a personal experience of this time that had been burned into my memory. It was of a trip taken to Poland when in 1971, when I was 11, my sister 9, and which marked my mother's first visit to her birthplace since leaving Europe for the US in 1956. My mother wanted her children to see the rebuilt Warsaw, where we spent a few days. After spending most of the day running from one tourist destination to another, it was time to find a place to eat. Again, we were in the capitol city of Poland, in it's 'downtown'. I remember that everywhere you looked, there were immense lines of people, at some little kiosks, hoping to procure what they could, as we were. Kids don't have a lot of patience to wait for 1-2 hrs just to buy a sandwich, so our mother became increasingly desperate, as we became increasingly hungry. We eventually did find a place to eat, in some 'exclusive' Warsaw hotel dining room, where we were the only people eating. US dollars got us in the door, and allowed us to eat. The lesson here, was that Polish communism was such an abject and total failure, that its own citizens, using their own currency, in their own capitol, were in pretty dire straits. Apparently, this was not the lesson the older woman wanted me to relate to her granddaughter. She was hoping that I would decry American imperialism, and praise the glories of the 'people's republics' of Cuba, and the other failed communist states. She became enraged at me. She told me that I had a 'Polish attitude', that 'Poland had killed all the Jews', and that I was a clear product of my 'ethnicity'. I was speechless, stupified, and on the verge of an equivalently violent response. The first thing I said, for the first time in my life, was that as a Polish-American, I categorically reject as a CANARD, a defamatory lie, her statement: 'the Poles killed all the Jews'. This American-born woman, seemingly educated, responded with the statement, repeated elsewhere in this blog, that 'all the concentration camps were in Poland'. I asked her if she had even the simplest knowledge and understanding of the basic chronology of Poland's wartime experience, whether she was aware that Poland was a defeated country within weeks of the Nazi invasion, whether she was aware that the area in question was under complete and total Nazi control and administration, and finally, whether she was aware of how many non-Jewish Poles suffered the same fate, in the same camps, as Jewish Poles. None of these facts seemed to allay her rage at me. Her grandparents had had a factory in Poland, had prospered in Poland for years, yet somehow this was also no reflection of the fact that Jewish society flourished in Poland for centuries. She seemed to be utterly unaware of this fact. Before leaving, I asked her if she knew of the Yad Vashem memorial in Jerusalem, which commemorates the 'righteous among nations', ie, those Gentiles that rescued Jews during the Holocaust. I asked her if she knew which nation had the honor of having saved the most Jews. She was ignorant on both counts. Finally, an Israeli family sat down with their falafels. I knew they were Israeli because they were speaking Hebrew, which, although I don't understand, I can identify. I asked the Israeli woman, within full earshot of the older American Jewish Communist sympathizer, if she knew about Yad Vashem. 'Of course, every Israeli knows about it: it is the most important monument in Jerusalem'. I asked her if she knew which country enjoyed the distinctive honor of the 'most righteous' among the nations. She said: 'Poland'. It was at this point that I stared long and hard at the old woman, then at that granddaughter, who both looked dumbfounded, and left. I got no apology over this woman's utterly unjustified personal attack of me, over her utter ignorance of basic history. Any Polish person, anywhere, will be waiting a long, long time as well.
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Post by kaima on Nov 14, 2007 23:30:40 GMT -7
Hi bjk, and welcome to the forum!
That is a sad enough note to introduce yourself with, but I hope you will stick around to share other aspects of your life as Polish-American. I am not Polish-American, but have seen the peculiar relationship we have with Jewish people and history. In America to be called anti-Semitic it is sufficient to not voice 100% support for whatever current Israeli politics may be. That pretty severely limits discussion of any kind. On this forum we have some Jewish nazi thought-police spring up now and then to jump on some supposedly anti-Jewish statement or discussion, and then they just as quickly melt into the ether again. Big Brother is out there.
Yes, it seems the woman you describe has a very unusual and selective view of history. Well, our bad habits in America extend well beyond things Jewish. I will agree Poles get shortchanged in the history books, but I think that is simply western / American / English racism. Blacks and browns might have it worse, but everyone not like 'us' (the ruling group, formerly WASP) is a 'wog' or whatever the current put-down term may be. I adapted that word from the British in WW II history. In America we must say the Jews suffered the worst in the war, it can't be only quietly acknowledged. We must recognize Indians as 'natural born environmentalists'. We can write books about "'White Men Can't Dance', but to speak its corollary 'Blacks Have Rhythm' is racist. I would say that the all belong in the pot of racist comments!
Sadly I don't think we are going to get far from this in our lifetimes. Yes, the few Israelis I have met and befriended so seem to have more open minds than the American Jews; I hesitate to say that, as the topics I range over with Israelis seems far broader than those I cover with American Jews. Therefore perhaps that is a conclusion with a weak basis.
The best think is for Poles to continue to speak out so they can try to broaden the perspectives that can reach the public eye.
Look around the forum and join us in other areas that interest you!
Kai
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Post by bescheid on Nov 15, 2007 9:17:52 GMT -7
Hallo bjk may also I offer to you a very warm and welcom here I am very confident you will find much enjoyment in fellow- ship with members of simular interest. Please do brows and feel very free to enjoy into the various presentations and exchange as you feel comfortable. As you become comfortable with, please do create of your own interest, in presentation that you wish to present. As closing, I am very sorry for your father of his confinement in one of many of OF-LAG {Offizier-Lager} in the war. He was very fortunante to survive of his many years in confinement and eventualty travell to America, as enjoyment of his years. In closing, may I again offer to you a very warm welcom Charles
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 15, 2007 13:01:36 GMT -7
I believe that this is the right forum to post an experience that I had over the summer, that I believe will resonate with many other Polish emigres and Polish-Americans. It will also resonate with native Poles. I understand the old Jewish lady`s animosity or even hatred towards Poles. It is natural. People tend to forget good things and prefer to remember bad ones. Gratitude flies out of the window very quickly... Was the lady`s resentment unjustified? There were many cases of Poles who saved Jews. But they are counterbalanced by cases of Poles who murdered Jews during or after the war. So, here, we have a draw. And in the background there is a mass of millions of Poles who remained indifferent to Jewish tragedy. Yes, helping Jews was punished by Nazi with death in only one country- Poland. But it didn`t excuse Poles who preferred to stay aside. If there were millions of helpers, the Nazi wouldn`t be able to kill all. The Israel Yad Vashem doesn`t mean much - it is natural that most trees were planted by Poles or in their honour. The Jewish population in Poland was the biggest in Europe and pure statistics requires that such population generates the highest number of survivors. So, here, I tend to disregard the number of Polish trees. What do you think? Is calling somebody a Jew in today`s Poland a praise or abuse? Why do Poles see Jews everywhere?Unfortunately, it is an abuse. If they want to humiliate a rival politician, businessman, any person of popularity and influence, they call him/her a Jew. Graffiti in Poland Statistics say that from 600 to 3000 Jews were killed by Poles in after-war Poland. Victims of the most infamous pogrom in Kielce in 1946 when 42 Jews were stoned or clubbed to death by blood thirsty Polish mob. The Jewish survivors What about 1968 when Jews were expelled by the communist regime and the grey mass of Polish society said nothing? Zionists to Israel! Do you understand the lady`s bitter resentment now? To make it short - Poland wasn`t a loving mother to Jewish people. It was a stepmother. Do you usually love your stepmother?
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Post by Jaga on Nov 15, 2007 14:19:05 GMT -7
The truth is that these manifestations (showed above) were staged. Gierek and Moczar used the occassion of stuents' strikes and Israel' controversial foreign policies to get rid of Jews from Poland.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 15, 2007 14:29:51 GMT -7
The truth is that these manifestations (showed above) were staged. Gierek and Moczar used the occassion of stuents' strikes and Israel' controversial foreign policies to get rid of Jews from Poland. It doesn`t matter if they were staged or not. Poles attended them and that`s enough. The same excuse was given about Kielce Pogrom - that it was a provocation by communist secret police. But who killed the Jews in Kielce - the UFO?
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bjk
Freshman Pole
Posts: 31
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Post by bjk on Nov 15, 2007 16:54:27 GMT -7
[But they are counterbalanced by cases of Poles who murdered Jews during or after the war. So, here, we have a draw... If there were millions of helpers, the Nazi wouldn`t be able to kill all... The Israel Yad Vashem doesn`t mean much] One of the easiest, most-simple minded things for one to say, is to dismiss things outright, to make statements of personal opinion, not of historical accuracy or reality. As a scientist I appreciate accurate thought and analysis. It would be stupid of me to respond tit-for-tat to what this man has written. Visceral hatred of an entire nation or religion, is bigotry, plain and simple. If you stand before someone and express such sentiments, despite facts to the contrary, you're not an ethical person, and there is no justification for your condemnations. To call Poles 'Nazi helpers' is idiocy beyond the pale. If there was one Nazi occupied nation (above any other, by orders of magnitude) that didn't stand by silently, but continuously resisted and fought back, it was Poland. Compare Poland, to say, France, a nation that seems in my mind to deserve far more condemnation with respect to quisling, collaborationist behavior during WW II than any other Nazi victim, and the differences could'nt be more stark. But I don't have the time to repeat what has been written by scholars, and available to researchers for years The material is out there. I leave one recent reference by a young Columbia-University trained Polish-American scholar who has written about one of these contentious issues. Read what the knowledgeable reviewers of this work have to say re: his scholarhip: www.amazon.com/Massacre-Jedwabne-July-10-1941/dp/0880335548/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195169885&sr=1-3One of the things that has become apparent to me, especially in this country, especially in this city, is that those who control what get taught in high schools and universities, that control waht appears in print and the media, those who decide what books get reviewed, get wide circulation, and those that don't, often dictate what eventually becomes widely accepted as 'fact', even when careful scholarship shows otherwise. This is an excellent example of such a case. I invite all readers of this blog topic to examine his work.
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bjk
Freshman Pole
Posts: 31
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Post by bjk on Nov 15, 2007 17:13:05 GMT -7
[Victims of the most infamous pogrom in Kielce in 1946 when 42 Jews were stoned or clubbed to death by blood thirsty Polish mob....The Jewish survivors]
One last point regarding Pawian's response to my original post. There isn't one person who has found his way to this blog who has not seen (often with his own eyes, in the case of any veterans still living) the atrocities of WW II. But images alone, without historical context, without accurate ATTRIBUTION (go to your Polish/English dictionary), don't mean much.
RE: the photo of the bandaged 'Jewish survivors' who seemed to have had time to don military uniforms, with medals no less, prior to the photographer's capturing the aftermath of their beatings.
I 'm an American, but common sense tells me there is something wrong with this photo. What army did these Jewish victims fight for? Was it the Polish Army (in any of its forms: in exile, or underground)? Or did they fight for (or minimally collaborate with) the Communist forces of occupation and their secret service?
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 16, 2007 6:30:37 GMT -7
One of the easiest, most-simple minded things for one to say, is to dismiss things outright, Did I dismiss anything outright? Did I say that your text is naive and silly? I just presented certain material for further discussion, that`s all. Some food for thought, as to say. It is ridiculous what you are saying now because so far you haven`t given us a chance to see a scientist in you. You first post was a naive report from an accidental meeting with a Jewish woman. I was enjoying a sandwich in Greenwich Village is scientific? hahahahaha If you can`t answer some of my arguments, it probably means you lack your own. Of course it is primitive to stand and criticize without looking into the matter. But.... if she had really looked into the matter and she had decided that several dozen hundred saved Jews couldn`t make up for all crimes and resentment that Poles offered to Jews throughout history? Then what? Are you still going to condemn this woman for her opinion? Who called Poles such a name? Have you got problems with your eyes? If I said that Poles stood aside it didn`t mean they were helpers. But, yes, I must say now that many were helpers and I will develop it soon too. It is so naive that it is hard to comment. What does it have in common with Jews? Poles taking part in military resistance movement and Poles saving Jews are two different things. Yet, most French Jews were rescued, about 900.000 out of a population of 120000 or so. Why not? We would like to know what scholars have written. At last you will be able to become more scientific. The man who wrote the book specialises on Polish-Jewish topics. He is intent on proving that Poles were gentle with Jews and that most Polish crimes on Jews were provoked or done by sb else. Shortly speaking, Poles are innocent. It isn`t too scientific.
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bjk
Freshman Pole
Posts: 31
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Post by bjk on Nov 16, 2007 11:18:15 GMT -7
It might be better if you were to stick to posting Polish comics. In the meantime, I'll let other scholars, historians, and enlightened media outlets make my point: Another good example for the enlightened readers of this valuable blog: www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shtetl/righteous/gentilesbios.htmlBest regards to everyone for a nice upcoming Thanksgiving Holiday!
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bjk
Freshman Pole
Posts: 31
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Post by bjk on Nov 16, 2007 11:44:52 GMT -7
Dear Sir:
Thank you very much for your kind response to my posting. My father was one of thousands of Polish 'DPs' that came to cities like NY, Chicago, Detroit, etc, looking to start new lives. All his wordly possessions fit into a cardboard suitcase, maybe 18" X 24". There was a destination sticker indicating: 'New York Committee for European Refugee's', or something similar. I am trying to find out more about this organization, and specifically how they made contact with those in shattered Germany and Poland that wanted to come to the US. My godfather, Franciszek Proch, preceded him with his wife and young children, by a few years. By that time, S. Queens, especially around Jamaica, was a growing center of expat Poles. That area was served by a fine Polish school and Catholic church: St. Joseph's (est ~ 1907), where mass is still celebrated in Polish every Sunday. It was a vibrant, growing Polish immigrant community, which regretably dissolved as people moved out to the suburbs of Long Island or New Jersey. I regret that I didn't have much of an interest in Polish language and culture while most of these people were alive, and living closeby, but I'm sure there were many interesting stories there! This website/blog has helped me to educate myself on many aspects of Polish (American) culture and history that I was unaware of for too many years.
BJK
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 16, 2007 13:32:58 GMT -7
It might be better if you were to stick to posting Polish comics. I can post cartoons and take part in a serious discussion at the same time. However, I can see you are not able to discuss anything seriously. You claim to be a scholar and scientist, but your way of thinking and writing proves you are not. You know nothing about real history and only try to convince us, by means of book reviews, that all Poles were heroic defeneders of Jews during the WW2. That`s pathetic. Good. You present your material, I will present mine.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 16, 2007 13:45:08 GMT -7
Dear Sir: Thank you very much for your kind response to my posting. My father was one of thousands of Polish 'DPs' that came to cities like NY, Chicago, Detroit, etc, looking to start new lives. All his wordly possessions fit into a cardboard suitcase, maybe 18" X 24". There was a destination sticker indicating: 'New York Committee for European Refugee's', or something similar. I am trying to find out more about this organization, and specifically how they made contact with those in shattered Germany and Poland that wanted to come to the US. My godfather, Franciszek Proch, preceded him with his wife and young children, by a few years. By that time, S. Queens, especially around Jamaica, was a growing center of expat Poles. That area was served by a fine Polish school and Catholic church: St. Joseph's (est ~ 1907), where mass is still celebrated in Polish every Sunday. It was a vibrant, growing Polish immigrant community, which regretably dissolved as people moved out to the suburbs of Long Island or New Jersey. I regret that I didn't have much of an interest in Polish language and culture while most of these people were alive, and living closeby, but I'm sure there were many interesting stories there! This website/blog has helped me to educate myself on many aspects of Polish (American) culture and history that I was unaware of for too many years. BJK Do you really need to post such irrelevant information? Hey, Mr Scientist, let me remind you, we are in the thread about Polish Jewish relations! Wake up! I am sorry, Mister, but you are a typical American. Your knowledge of history is very superficial, you base your naive opinions on one-sided publications by Polish authors who consciously try to rewrite history. But history shouldn`t be rewritten. We must discuss it as it was. And the truth is that several dozen hundred cases of Poles saving Jews are not enough to compensate for several dozen cases of Polish crimes against Jews and, what is more, the indifference of milions.
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bjk
Freshman Pole
Posts: 31
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Post by bjk on Nov 16, 2007 14:33:33 GMT -7
Don't admonish me as to what is irrelevant or not. To use the vernacular here, you are a 'punk'. (Look it up in your Polish/English dictionary). I was warned by others: 'On this forum we have some 'Jewish-nazi' thought-police spring up now and then to jump on some supposedly anti-Jewish statement or discussion, and then they just as quickly melt into the ether again. Big Brother is out there. ' Maybe it's time for you to vanish again. The response in quotes is for the gentleman ('Bescheid') who welcomed what I had to say and invited me to talk further. This website refers to Polish (American) culture and history, and there are others, who may have posted elsewhere here, who are interested in Polish-American history of the last half century, and are searching to fill in the gaps in their personal histories and knowledge base. If you're not one of them, then go away. You're quick with the dismissals and cheap insults, irrrespective of how many publically-accepted scholarly references I've included in support of what I've said, the authors I've cited. You sound like someone with significant self-loathing over your own country. I don't have that problem, and I will defend to the death my right to express myself whenever, and wherever I choose. Just like the Poles that defended their country to the death, and were'nt quislings, cowards, and wining critics, endlessly screaming about what was'nt 'done for them'. You asked for more scholarship to back up what I've said? Or are these people also self-deluded, ignorant, hacks as well? I submit this for the benefit of those who've retained their ability to think clearly, and decide for themselves: www.amazon.com/Rising-44-Battle-Norman-Davies/dp/0143035401/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195248600&sr=8-1www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Holocaust-German-Occupation-1939-1944/dp/0781809010/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195248697&sr=1-1www.amazon.com/Question-Honor-Kosciuszko-Squadron-Forgotten/dp/037572625X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195248744&sr=1-1www.amazon.com/Monte-Cassino-Hardest-Fought-Battle/dp/1400033756/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195248784&sr=1-1 www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Survivors-Christians-Remember-Occupation/dp/0700613501/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195248827&sr=1-4Go back to posting Polish cartoons of men looking up women's skirts.
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