Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Nov 16, 2007 14:41:02 GMT -7
ATTRIBUTION (go to your Polish/English dictionary), Is it this scientific argument you are able to provide at last? Your common sense tells you wrong, I think it is because as a typical good-natured American boy you are not able to understand all intricacies which Eastern Europe has always been full of. They were either Jews who had fought in Polish partisan units during WW2 or Jews from the Polish People`s Army created in the Soviet Union. There were also former prisoners of concentration camps as well as some relatively rich Soviet Jews on their way to Palestine. The pogrom would never have happened if not for the climate of anti-Semitism in Poland at the time, where Jews were dehumanised, seen as having been 'punished' in the war, and the myth of the communist Jew, who brought the hated communists to power, was freely spread," said historian Andrzej Paczkowski. The plaque reads: In memory of the 42 Jews murdered on July 4th in 1946 during anti-semitic riots. One of the founders was Lech Walesa. Unique photos, not published before old.echodnia.eu/swietokrzyskie/?cat=44&id=238old.echodnia.eu/swietokrzyskie/?cat=44&id=238&l=1#galeria
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 16, 2007 15:29:51 GMT -7
Don't admonish me as to what is irrelevant or not. To use the vernacular here, you are a 'punk'. (Look it up in your Polish/English dictionary). Mr Scientist, your purely "scientific" arguments disarm me! hahahaha As long as you are here with your worthless attempts to run a "scientific" discussion, I will never vanish, I promise hahahahaha. As for Jewish police (why somebody wrote Nazi is a mystery to me hahahaha), yes, I can agree with this statement. And I can add I am proud to be in the Jewish thought police. So you expected to be welcomed with open arms? hahahahaha You were wrong. Of course, let them form their own opinion. You already have yours, I have mine, now it`s their turn. hahahahaha I can`t accept your polite advice. The problem is that before I suggested you are a pseudo-scientist, you hadn`t provided us with any sources except for some silly advertisement of a book with a review included. Very romantic attitude! Polish! hahahahaha Good for you! We need more Poles romantic like that! hahahahaha OK, go and defend your right. I will defend mine. Man, you are not a scientist, you are a salesman!!! You are in bookselling business! Do you have in stock all those books advertised on those sites? I will. But first I have to deal with you! And it won`t be pleasant hahahahaha
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 16, 2007 16:13:24 GMT -7
The main thesis of the review, as well as of the book I suppose, is the following: The Jedwabne Massacre of Jews: Germans, Not Poles, to Blame. It is even written in the title of the review. It is worthless. It was proven long ago that the Jedwabne Massacre was committed by Poles. Germans just didn`t prevent it, that`s all. Even if there had been some provocation, Poles were murderers. The Polish nation has experienced a long history of bondage and martyrdom. The well-worn self-portrait of Poland has always portrayed the country as a victim fighting for its right to existence. Now is the time—and not only because of the shadow of Jedwabne¾to accept the fact that the inter-war history of independent Poland, followed by successive chapters of its history, are stained with crimes against its own citizens who looked to their country for aid and understanding.
Are the Poles, therefore, a nation of incorrigible antisemites? Such a sweeping statement is in itself unjust and bears something of the plague of antisemitism. It is true that antisemitism has embedded itself deeply in the Polish consciousness over the past few generations, that it existed during the war and occupation, and that it made itself sharply felt after the war. It was expressed in the wave of killings in the 1940s, in the Kielce pogrom of 1946, and in the expulsion of Jews in 1968-1969, the result of squabbling between Communist party factions.
At the same time, a relatively large number of Poles occupy an honorable place among the Righteous Among the Nations for helping hunted Jews at the risk, and sometimes with the loss, of their lives and the lives of their families. They did so selflessly, and with ceaseless effort, for people whom they did not know, and consequently lived in constant fear, for as is generally acknowledged, the task of rescuing Jews was especially difficult and dangerous in Poland.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 16, 2007 16:35:37 GMT -7
Church apologises for Jewish massacre news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1355059.stmPolish President Alexander Kwasniewski has made a formal apology on behalf of the Polish people for a massacre of Jews 60 years ago. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1431339.stmDo Poles, along with Germans, bear guilt for the Holocaust? It is hard to imagine a more absurd claim.
Not a single Polish family was spared by Hitler and Stalin. The two totalitarian dictatorships obliterated three million Poles and three million Polish citizens classified as Jews by the Nazis.
Poland was the first country to oppose Hitler's demands and the first to stand against his aggression. Poland never had a Quisling. No Polish regiment fought on behalf of the Third Reich. Betrayed by the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, Poles fought alongside the anti-Nazi forces from the first day until the last. And inside Poland armed resistance to the German occupation was widespread.
At the same time, anti-Semitic traditions were deeply rooted in Poland. In the 19th century, when the Polish state didn't exist, the modern nation that was to emerge was shaped by ethnic and religious ties and by opposing antagonistic neighbors often hostile to the dream of Polish independence. Anti-Semitism was the ideological glue of great political nationalistic formations. And yet it was also used at various points as a tool by Russian occupiers in accordance with the principle "divide et impera."
In the 1920's and 30's, anti-Semitism took hold. It became a fixture of radical right- wing nationalists and it could be detected in the utterances of the hierarchy of the Catholic church. Though historically Poland had been a relatively safe haven for them, Jews began to feel increasingly discriminated against and unsafe - and they were, with noisy anti-Semitic groups, segregated seating at universities and calls for pogroms.
A well-known appeal to save the Jews that was published by a famous Catholic writer, Zofia Kossak-Szczucka, in August 1942. She wrote of hundreds of thousands of Jews in the Warsaw ghetto awaiting death without hope of rescue and how the entire world - England, America, Jews overseas and Poles - was silent. "The dying Jews are surrounded by Pilates washing their hands," she wrote. "This silence cannot be tolerated any longer. No matter what the reasons for it, this silence is a disgrace."
Speaking of Catholic Poles, she continued: "Our feelings toward the Jews haven't changed. We still consider them the political, economic and ideological enemies of Poland. Furthermore, we are aware that they hate us even more than they hate the Germans, that they hold us responsible for their misfortune. . . . The knowledge of these feelings doesn't relieve us of the duty of condemning the crime. We don't want to be Pilates. We have no chance to act against the German crimes, we can't help or save anybody, but we protest from the depths of our hearts, filled with compassion, indignation and awe. . . . The compulsory participation of the Polish nation in this bloody show, which is taking place on Polish soil, can breed indifference to the wrongs, the sadism and above all the sinister conviction that one can kill one's neighbors and go unpunished."This extraordinary appeal, full of idealism and courage while openly poisoned by anti-Semitic stereotypes, illustrates the paradox of Polish attitudes toward the dying Jews. The anti-Semitic tradition compels the Poles to perceive the Jews as aliens while the Polish heroic tradition compels them to save them.
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Pawian
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Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 16, 2007 16:46:23 GMT -7
The quote I fully agree with
The Polish debate about Jedwabne has been going on for several months. It is a serious debate, full of sadness and sometimes terror - as if the whole society was suddenly forced to carry the weight of this terrible 60-year-old crime; as if all Poles were made to admit their guilt collectively and ask for forgiveness.
I don't believe in collective guilt or collective responsibility or any other responsibility except the moral one. And therefore I ponder what exactly is my individual responsibility and my own guilt. Certainly I cannot be responsible for that crowd of murderers who set the barn in Jedwabne on fire. Similarly, today's citizens of Jedwabne cannot be blamed for that crime. When I hear a call to admit my Polish guilt, I feel hurt the same way the citizens of today's Jedwabne feel when they are interrogated by reporters from around the world.
But when I hear that Mr. Gross's book, which revealed the truth about the crime, is a lie that was concocted by the international Jewish conspiracy against Poland, that is when I feel guilty. Because these false excuses are in fact nothing else but a rationalization of that crime.
I do not feel guilty for those murdered, but I do feel responsible. Not that they were murdered - I could not have stopped that. I feel guilty that after they died they were murdered again, denied a decent burial, denied tears, denied truth about this hideous crime, and that for decades a lie was repeated.
Who then am I, as I write these words? Thanks to nature, I am a man, and I am responsible to other people for what I do and what I do not do. Thanks to my choice, I am a Pole, and I am responsible to the world for the evil inflicted by my countrymen. I do so out of my free will, by my own choice, and by the deep urging of my conscience.
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Post by rdywenur on Nov 17, 2007 13:18:58 GMT -7
I am surprised and offended by Pawian's statement Exactly what is a typical American, Pawian. I think you crossed the line here.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Nov 17, 2007 13:52:18 GMT -7
I am surprised and offended by Pawian's statement Exactly what is a typical American, Pawian. I think you crossed the line here. A typical American doesn`t know history. It is a fact which you can`t deny. Are you enraged because I don`t stick to political correctness and dare to tell the truth? hahahahaha A proof?? www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/09/dont_know_much_about_history-2/ Among college seniors, less than half–47.9%–correctly concluded that “We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal” was from the Declaration of Independence. More than half did not know that the Bill of Rights prohibits the governmental establishment of an official religion, and “55.4 percent could not recognize Yorktown as the battle that brought the American Revolution to an end” (more than one quarter believing that it was the Civil War battle of Gettysburg that had ended the Revolution).I wrote the controvercial words in the context of Polish Jewish relations. Now, if American students, the future elite of the country, are unaware of their own history, do you think that a typical American knows much about the history which took place in other parts of the world? hahahahaha I especially liked the current affairs test run in American elementary schools. 25% of American pupils declared that their current president is .........tadaam, George Washington!!!! hahahahahaha PS. OK, I was too harsh on a typical American, including you. I am really sorry. Will you forgive me?
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Post by kaima on Nov 17, 2007 15:45:55 GMT -7
Pawi,
You are really on a rampage! Sit back and take it easy. If you don't scare the poor visitor off you will have plenty of time to talk things through later without overloading all of us!
We may disagree on this forum, but all I can see on this screen are 5 long posts by you. That is in no way interesting to read. You have lost at least this part of your potential audience.
bjk deserves at least a little time to break into the group before you lambaste him. Where are we going to get exposure to new ideas if you scare people off because you disagree with them?
Now you might also learn a bit from history, as you have offended rdy and perhaps others. From our great Allied cooperation 60+ years ago, Eisenhower had a good principle he brought to the table that helped keep the alliance working. It went something to the effect that 'we have to work with all kinds of SOBs (sons of female dogs) to win this war. If one happens to be British, you can call an SOB an SOB, but you cannot call him a British SOB".
Geee, is that an American talking history to a Pole?
Kai
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Post by Jaga on Nov 17, 2007 15:49:32 GMT -7
But when I hear that Mr. Gross's book, which revealed the truth about the crime, is a lie that was concocted by the international Jewish conspiracy against Poland, that is when I feel guilty. Because these false excuses are in fact nothing else but a rationalization of that crime. Pawian, let try to understand each other for a minute. The truth is not that simple - black and white like you try to present it. Of course killing innocent people is ALWAYS bad. I do not believe that Gross was completely impartial in the book about Jedwabne. We are all people, Poles tend to see history from their angle, Jews from their angle. Mr. Gross is an opinionated writer. He did make a point that Poles are guilty but he tried to dramatize the facts even more than the reality was. He also did not show some of the reasons why Polish population was skeptical towards Jewish people in the regions of Poland which were earlier under Soviet occupation. Soviet communists tend to trust Jewish communists more than Poles who lived in this region. Gross portrays Poles as the evil killers doing things without any justifications, just so.... he does not go into complex historical complexity of having one oppresor after another.
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Post by Jaga on Nov 17, 2007 15:52:20 GMT -7
Gross did not write his book to find the truth but to prove his point. He is controversial since he exaggerates the number of victims. Here is from the Wikipedia: He is most known for his work on the Jedwabne massacre, Neighbors (2001), which argued that the massacre was conducted by Poles and not by the German occupiers, as previously assumed. The results were the subject of vigorous debate in Poland, and later were supported, in part at least, by the Polish Institute of National Remembrance. The Institute, however, estimated that the number of victims was about 380, based on its own investigation of the massacre site, compared to the 1,600 victims claimed in Gross' book. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_T._Gross
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 17, 2007 16:18:55 GMT -7
Pawi, You are really on a rampage! Sit back and take it easy. Me take it easy? First you should explain what you meant by your Jewish Nazi thought police. After you explain it, I will take it easy, I promise hahahaha. The so-called poor visitor can blame himself for being scared off. His lies about being a scientist and silly arguments (or more precisely, the lack of reasonable arguments) caused all this havoc. I am so sorry, what is the exact limit of posts that one can put on the forum in one thread? Besides, do I force you to enter this thread? If you don`t like it, stick to other threads where I don`t post. What is the problem at all? It is sad but I will live through it. That was risks I was ready to take.... I am not responsible for sissy reactions of new posters. Nice historical reference but missed, I am afraid. I don`t seem to be in alliance with the guy so I don`t feel any need to work with this kind of SOB in order to win the war. My war isn`t his war, that`s for sure. Go on, it`s a very interesting discourse ;D
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 17, 2007 16:26:32 GMT -7
Gross did not write his book to find the truth but to prove his point. He is controversial since he exaggerates the number of victims. Here is from the Wikipedia: He is most known for his work on the Jedwabne massacre, Neighbors (2001), which argued that the massacre was conducted by Poles and not by the German occupiers, as previously assumed. The results were the subject of vigorous debate in Poland, and later were supported, in part at least, by the Polish Institute of National Remembrance. The Institute, however, estimated that the number of victims was about 380, based on its own investigation of the massacre site, compared to the 1,600 victims claimed in Gross' book. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_T._GrossI would like to write my usual hahahaha here but I can`t, it would be laughter through tears. What is the difference between 380 and 1600 victims?
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Nov 17, 2007 16:37:57 GMT -7
Pawian, let try to understand each other for a minute. The truth is not that simple - black and white like you try to present it. I think you meant BLACK only. But if you read my posts more carefully, you will notice that there is also white. Does bigger dose of dramatization allow us to disregard the cruel facts? Why did Jews turn to communism? Wasn`t it the result of Polish resentment towards Jews before the war? Jews hoped for better treatment under communist rule, that`s all. The complexity is one thing, but the fact that Poles murdered Jews is another. And nothing can excuse it - can`t you understand it? ?
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Post by Jaga on Nov 17, 2007 19:26:58 GMT -7
[What is the difference between 380 and 1600 victims? The problem is - one has to show reliable data, do good historical research, be trustworthly and try to be as close to the truth as possible. We can go to the absurd with such logic. Since every life is important there is no difference whether 1 life was lost or million lives. If there were 380 victims, let correct the story and give it a right number or at least add the reference that the originally posted material. What Gross tried to so, is to justify Nazi, show them as better people than Poles.... we can cynically say, that if these people would not be killed by Poles, they would be killed 2 years later in the extermination camp anyways. Gross tried to show that the Poles were a main force behind it and almost justified nazi Germans. I am not sure the truth was exactly that simple.
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Post by Jaga on Nov 17, 2007 19:33:44 GMT -7
+++Does bigger dose of dramatization allow us to disregard the cruel facts?+++ Yes, this is exactly what happened to Michael Moore and his movie "Sicko" about health care situation in the US. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_MooreHis movie was quite correct almost to the very end but then... he presented the perfect healthcare situation in Cuba and the movie lost its touch with reality. If Michael tried to be objective and avoid to put more "colorization" more people would appreciate it and trust him. But he has strong opinion and he tried to prove his opinion rather than search the objective truth. For writers to dramatize its book is OK but for journalist and historian the objective truth should be the most important feature.
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