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Post by Jaga on Nov 17, 2007 19:37:37 GMT -7
+++Why did Jews turn to communism? Wasn`t it the result of Polish resentment towards Jews before the war? Jews hoped for better treatment under communist rule, that`s all.+++ now, you justify Jewish people for being communists, in the same way, you should justify Poles for disliking them since they were tools for Soviets. +++The complexity is one thing, but the fact that Poles murdered Jews is another. And nothing can excuse it - can`t you understand it? ?+++ Yes, there are different degrees of murder. You have a first degree murder, second degree murder etc. So, yes, this is not as simple as Gross presented it.
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Post by kaima on Nov 17, 2007 20:51:18 GMT -7
Pawi, You are really on a rampage! Sit back and take it easy. Me take it easy? First you should explain what you meant by your Jewish Nazi thought police. After you explain it, I will take it easy, I promise hahahaha. +++ It may have been before your time and perhaps before Proboards, Jewish-Polish relations have always been a popular topic, often recurring. 3 or 4 times when the topic came up some comments were made about Israeli politics that did not support Israeli politics 100%. Some strangers came on, usually with a single post, violently attacked everyone as anti-Semitic, perhaps threatening, and then just as quickly disappeared. Those are the people I referred to Jewish-nazi thought police. I see you claim in another post to be one of them. By comparison even your rampage is toned down. I am so sorry, what is the exact limit of posts that one can put on the forum in one thread? ++++ It is not the limit of numbers, but the limit of taste. With your temper, if it is typically Polish, I can see why you charged into the slaughter so often in history. Besides, do I force you to enter this thread? If you don’t like it, stick to other threads where I don’t post. What is the problem at all? ++++ no, but your stupidity forces me to skip the tasteless pissing match. I like to go where I wish and not get caught in the crossfire. Nice historical reference but missed, I am afraid. I don’t seem to be in alliance with the guy so I don’t feel any need to work with this kind of SOB in order to win the war. My war isn’t his war, that’s for sure. ++++ You missed the point. It is a nice way to call a spade a spade without inflaming emotions that distract from the discussion at hand. ;D Of course you are free to do whatever you wish, until you push Jaga's patience to the limit. Have an extra shot of vodka. The hangover will do you good. Kai PS Even a Pawian doesn't have to go ape to make a point!
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Nov 18, 2007 1:06:41 GMT -7
For writers to dramatize its book is OK but for journalist and historian the objective truth should be the most important feature. My opinion`s in the forum aren`t those of a historian or journalist. They are private, personal opinions based on what I have read, seen or heard in Poland for the 40 years of my life. After that time, after considering arguments of both sides, my opinion concerning Polish attitude towards Jews has been formed: I believe that Poles hurt Jews more. This view of mine is partly emotional, I perfectly realise it, but that is always so with personal opinions. PS. I haven`t read the books by Gross. I know they are opinionated and biased. He certainly tries to rewrite history. Yet, attempts to "rationalise" the crime, e.g., by pointing to a factual lower number of victims than was mentioned in the controvercial book are highly inappropriate, I think. Also other counterarguments, like pointing to factual Jewish collaboration with communist oppressors, as well as suggesting that only a few dozen Poles organized the massacre instead of the whole village, etc etc etc don`t influence my opinion.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Nov 18, 2007 1:10:11 GMT -7
now, you justify Jewish people for being communists, in the same way, you should justify Poles for disliking them since they were tools for Soviets. What was first: Jewish communism or Polish dislike of Jews? That`s interesting, I don`t know this classification. It must be American. Which degree would you ascribe to crimes on Jews?
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Nov 18, 2007 1:36:02 GMT -7
+++ It may have been before your time and perhaps before Proboards, Jewish-Polish relations have always been a popular topic, often recurring. 3 or 4 times when the topic came up some comments were made about Israeli politics that did not support Israeli politics 100%. Some strangers came on, usually with a single post, violently attacked everyone as anti-Semitic, perhaps threatening, and then just as quickly disappeared. Those are the people I referred to Jewish-nazi thought police. I see you claim in another post to be one of them. By comparison even your rampage is toned down. It was stupid of you to write about such a historical thing in the current situation in this forum. It was a mistake which unnecessarily drove emotions up higher. I think you should pick better arguments than that, especially that you are an administrator. My temper flies off when I meet an adult mature person who cannot formulate clear opinions and has no arguments except for pathetic commercial sites with book reviews. How simple! I am sorry but you should be always on alert. Life is brutal and you never know when and where you accidentally get in crossfire. My first post was devoid of emotions, I think. I presented a set of pictures, that`s all. That was the guy who became emotional and started writing bulshiit. Kai, why don`t you read all the posts again carefully? A threat? hahahahaha That`s silly again. It reminds me the new comer and his propositions to me: to go away from the forum; to vanish into the ether; to go back to posting Polish cartoons etc. Do you have other pieces of useful advice for me? You certainly don`t know what it really means to go ape! hahahaha My going ape was as mild as going bananas. I didn`t call the guy "punk" as he did. And remember, I never say stupid about anybody unless it has been used on me before hahahahahaha
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scatts
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Post by scatts on Nov 18, 2007 2:13:59 GMT -7
Did I miss something?
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Post by kaima on Nov 18, 2007 2:47:44 GMT -7
+++ It may have been before your time and perhaps before Proboards, Jewish-Polish relations have always been a popular topic, often recurring. 3 or 4 times when the topic came up some comments were made about Israeli politics that did not support Israeli politics 100%. Some strangers came on, usually with a single post, violently attacked everyone as anti-Semitic, perhaps threatening, and then just as quickly disappeared. Those are the people I referred to Jewish-nazi thought police. I see you claim in another post to be one of them. By comparison even your rampage is toned down. It was stupid of you to write about such a historical thing in the current situation in this forum. It was a mistake which unnecessarily drove emotions up higher. I think you should pick better arguments than that, especially that you are an administrator. ++++ That was a very early reply in this thread, and warning him that we have been watched in the pas is quite fair. Quote: Of course you are free to do whatever you wish, until you push Jaga's patience to the limit. A threat? Hahahahaha ++++ No threat. Just a round-about way to say consider the lady and the trouble you can cause by your actions. I am surprised you did not comment on my setting a bad example. At the same time I suggested you not write inflammatory phrases, I also called your action ‘stupid’; distinctly not a calming influence! Ok, vodka or bananas, whatever pleases you. I am done monkeying around with this topic.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Nov 18, 2007 3:48:45 GMT -7
Did I miss something? Yes, that was one of those rare occasions when people gave up political correctness and stated a few painful truths hahahahahaha probably offensive to sensitive guys.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Nov 18, 2007 4:08:50 GMT -7
++++ That was a very early reply in this thread, and warning him that we have been watched in the pas is quite fair. You don`t know the Polish saying: Co było a nie jest nie pisze się w rejestr! Unfortunately, your remark about the distant past had a self-fulfilling effect. What exactly is this trouble? Don`t be so enigmatic. Darkman! (did you see the movie in early 90s?) hahahahahaha I am glad you noticed it. hahahahaha OK, let`s bury the hatchet hahahaha like decent Indians should. I forgive everyone in this forum who tried to offend me, especially those who called me "punk," or mentioned "stupidity" as one of my characteristics. Also all those who suggested that I had a nasty tendency to see black only. At the same time I beg everyone for forgiveness for my wrongful actions, with the main stress on my using such derogatory names as Mr Scientist or Mr Salesman in reference to the dear new comer, implying the lack of historical knowledge of a typical American, as well as for categorizing Kaima`s remark as stupid. After a storm there is a calm.......calm....... calm...... Hey, we are all waiting for calm! Here it is: PS. Hey, Kai, it was a nice discussion, huh? Shall we have another one next month??? hahahahahaha We certainly need more energy here in the forum!!
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Post by scatts on Nov 18, 2007 8:54:10 GMT -7
Very often I find it helps to understand what the motives behind people's very strong reactions are. Most people do not "fly off the handle" unless the topic, or a few phrases, get "right up their nose". I would imagine, in this case, that both Pawian and the gentleman that appears to have left the building (bjk??) have reasons to hold such strong views on this topic. It may even, slipping into Freud mode, go back to their childhood! Of course, at the point we've reached now, we're not likely to find out.
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Post by Jaga on Nov 18, 2007 10:00:43 GMT -7
+++ It may have been before your time and perhaps before Proboards, Jewish-Polish relations have always been a popular topic, often recurring. 3 or 4 times when the topic came up some comments were made about Israeli politics that did not support Israeli politics 100%. Some strangers came on, usually with a single post, violently attacked everyone as anti-Semitic, perhaps threatening, and then just as quickly disappeared. Those are the people I referred to Jewish-nazi thought police. I see you claim in another post to be one of them. By comparison even your rampage is toned down. It was stupid of you to write about such a historical thing in the current situation in this forum. It was a mistake which unnecessarily drove emotions up higher. I think you should pick better arguments than that, especially that you are an administrator. Hello Pawian, what Kai was talking about is true. In the past the Polish-Jewish relations and any discussion about it increased a temperature in the forum more than anything else. I do not understand your opinion that referring to it is stupid. We all understand that there would be never full clarity and understanding about it. People would have several opinions ++++++++++++++++ By the way, thanks for agreeing that Gross is biased. His book is available on the internet. I read through the parts of it. It is a dramatized historical account. ++++++++++++++++ One more. I understand your background. In Poland we tend to believe that we should convince everybody else about our opinion because we are right. This led to night-long discussions among Poles in the past. It was easy to agree as long as all of us lived under communism. After the system was conquered one could see more clearly different political fractions. Here in the US people know that trying to convince somebody else about its own political opinions is almost impossible. We still try to show people who have different views some logical arguments but nobody dream that one day Americans would wake up beliving all in the same. Just take the subject of war with Iraq. While majority people is annoyed with the war there are still some who believe that this was a necessity. ++++++++++++++++++ so, we all need to agree that it is very hard to agree on the universal truth Here in America people realized that
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Nov 18, 2007 12:40:56 GMT -7
Very often I find it helps to understand what the motives behind people's very strong reactions are. Most people do not "fly off the handle" unless the topic, or a few phrases, get "right up their nose". Dear Scatts, my flying off the handle wasn`t really caused by the Jewish topic. I have certain strong opinions but I have become a placid man recently, I know that views are different, people vary and that`s natural and I can show tolerance, to certain extent hahahaha. I flew off the handle because of the way he dealt with the topic - I believe it was very unprofessional. The problem is that the disappearing (I didn`t want it) gentleman had hardly any discernible opinion at all. I would say he was sort of wondering why modern Jews hate Poland and why Polish war effort is absent in education or consciousness of modern Americans. He included a lengthy report about meeting a Jewish woman and an advertisement of a book which included a review. After I presented a set of pictures with explanation and suggested possible reasons for Jewish hatred, he started to go personal, accusing me of being unscientific, later adding something about idiocy and punks. And he flowed us with more advertisements of books on Polish subjects, but it was clear he hadn`t read any of them. I am really worried because if such people stand up in America and try to defend the Polish cause and good name, then it is no wonder that Jews stick to their justified or unjustified opinions and they will for a long time. What a pity! Why not? I am still here, you can ask me.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Nov 18, 2007 12:59:13 GMT -7
what Kai was talking about is true. In the past the Polish-Jewish relations and any discussion about it increased a temperature in the forum more than anything else. I do not understand your opinion that referring to it is stupid. Which forum are you talking about? Certainly not this one!? I have been here since the beginning and I have never encountered a poster who hit and ran in Jewish topics. And the very expression Kaima used - Jewish- Nazi. Such juxtaposing wasn`t too nice. So, if it hadn`t happened here, what was the sense of bringing it up in the discussion? Yes, as long as we stick to our opinions it is OK. It is worse when someone resorts to abuses, like the new comer did. By the way it was an excellent test for people who took part in the discussion. I think some didn`t pass it as they prefered to admonish me for my views and totally ignored the behaviour of the new comer!!! hahahaha
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Post by Jaga on Nov 18, 2007 15:12:26 GMT -7
+++Which forum are you talking about? Certainly not this one!? I have been here since the beginning and I have never encountered a poster who hit and ran in Jewish topics. +++
we had the same group of people but the forum locations was changing already several times. We started 7 years ago as a part of BellaOnline as one of the Delphi forums, later we created our own forum in Delphi, then we were in Bella - but different type of forum. This one is with us probably for about 2 years now. You are right, since you are here this is the only forum. Kai, John Chmielewski, Eric, Carl ZIm - are the group which is with us from the Delphi times.
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Post by Jaga on Nov 18, 2007 15:16:57 GMT -7
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