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Post by leslie on Aug 1, 2007 5:07:02 GMT -7
Good memories from everybody for those brave Warszawians who fell in the 1944 Rising trying to save Warszawa from both the Germans and the Russians. OK they failed and Warszawa was destroyed, but the odds were against them right from the start, particularly when the Reds sat like mushrooms by the other side of the Wisla and let the Germans slaughter the Poles. A true Polish heritage of bravery.
Leslie
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Post by Jaga on Aug 1, 2007 7:39:40 GMT -7
Leslie,
I am glad you reminded us about it. For me September 1st will always be remember as a day of Warsaw rising, just like the end of September would be remembered as the creation of Solidarity Workers' Union.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 1, 2007 8:40:10 GMT -7
Good memories from everybody for those brave Warszawians who fell in the 1944 Rising trying to save Warszawa from both the Germans and the Russians. OK they failed and Warszawa was destroyed, but the odds were against them right from the start, particularly when the Reds sat like mushrooms by the other side of the Wisla and let the Germans slaughter the Poles. A true Polish heritage of bravery. Leslie I see you haven`t changed your views which you stated 2 years ago in Bella forum. Do you rememebr there was a big discussion about it, with Adam and others. I didn` t change my views either. I have always thought Warsaw Uprising was a tragic mistake. 200.000 people lost their lives, Warsaw was destroyed. The blood and incredible sacrifice didn`t save Poland from communism. I agree that Warsaw Uprising was a heroically romantic fight for freedom. However, I refuse to admire and praise it. I don`t know how I would behave at the time, probably I would fight. BUT, I do not consider Warsaw Uprising to be worth celebrating as if it was a great Polish victory. Poles have a funny tendency to celebrate their complete failures, claiming that at least they achieved a moral victory. That`s pathetic. You can`t have a moral victory when so many people died cruelly and their city was burnt to the ground. It`s high time Poles finished their self-tormenting celebrations of obvious failures like Warsaw Uprising. I don`t think there was any moral victory in it. The cost of it surpassed all possible gains, including moral ones. Wasaw Uprising was the last of great Polish Risings. I hope it will remain so. In Warsaw Poles got a terrible lesson: that it is senseless to make a revolt if one doesn`t have means to carry it out successfully. Anybody willing to discuss my opinion? Huh???
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 1, 2007 8:41:59 GMT -7
Major Polish risings were started in Warsaw: The Kosciuszko`s Insurection -1794 The November Uprising -1830/31 The January Uprising - 1863
And the one in 1944.
All of them failed. The only rising which was really successful took place in 1919 in the former German partition zone of Poznan.
I come from Kraków. Apart from one, short, 9-day rising in 1846, Krakow has no rebel traditions. Was it because people were cowards? I don`t think so. People from Kraków were simply more realistic, they knew it was senseless to start fighting without arms, money, international support, recources etc.
Kraków is closer to the Czech Republic than Warsaw. Czechs lost their independence in 16 century and became Austria`s subjects. They didn`t make any risings. Today they are an independent nation, with a rich culture and a beautiful capital. Prague is truly "Paris of the East."
Why couldn`t Poles be like Czechs? Less romantic, more reasonable. There would have been less blood, tears, suffering.
However, I agree the lesson of Warsaw Uprising worked in case of Solidarity revolution. Apart from few radical leaders who advocated violent solutions, the movement adopted a peaceful way. Communism was defeated without a single shot. That is what Poles can be proud of.
We shouldn`t be proud of a destroyed city. It is ridiculous.
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Post by leslie on Aug 1, 2007 9:00:55 GMT -7
Jaga Don't you mean August 1st as the date for the Rising? I haven't an immediate reference for creation of Solidarity, but August 1st will be burnt in my Polish memories for ever, even though I was just 15 in 1944. Leslie
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Post by ludikundera on Aug 1, 2007 13:53:15 GMT -7
The Warsaw Uprising failed because Poland's allies stood by and watched. The Soviets, obviously, as well as the West. In Britain, the media both left and right immediately started criticizing the uprising, choosing to ignore at the cost of not risking Soviet anger. Lonely George Orwell tried the opposite. Here's a famous paragraph from one of his articles: I like that we try to remember it. We should rub the guilt of its failure in the world's face. Then we should use it to extract reparation payments! Unfortunately, we're pathetically bad at doing that. But these types of "self-tormenting celebrations of obvious failures" have seemed to work wonder$ for other minority groups, so we shouldn't lose hope. We should remember the Warsaw Uprising every year and even invite German, Russian, American, British leaders to come to our country, apologize for what they failed to do, and possibly even shed a tear. I think lots of dark-coloured monuments are a good idea, too.
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george
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Post by george on Aug 1, 2007 15:23:49 GMT -7
Warsaw uprising? Thats a tough one. I like to compare it to the French resistance which was little if anything. Ever hear of the Paris Uprising? i think the Poles needed it for their self respect if anytrhing. In that point of the war the Poles probably felt they were devoid of dignity considering what the Germans ( not the Nazis's) forced them to endure. All in all, for those who partcipated and died in this uprising, i only wish they are rewarded in the afterlife if it exists. They deserve it because they fought the most evil enemy in the history of mankind. Its just to darn bad the world does not have knowlege of their heroics.
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Post by leslie on Aug 1, 2007 15:31:09 GMT -7
Ludikundera Remember that UK is more than 1000 miles from Warszawa, so land help would be difficult and the UK and US were involved in the most critical part of total war in the West. The Reds got as far as the Wisla and sat there until the Rising soldiers were beaten and the Nazis almost completely finished their task of demolishing Warszawa. Only then did the Reds enter Warszawa. The UK and US air forces flew from the Middle East to try to drop supplies to the Warszawian Home Army, but this was not easy as they were on the move all the time - naturally. But the Reds refused to let the UK and US planes land at their airfields if they got into difficulties - they raised this ban when the Rising was all but over.
So I think your adverse comments about the Western allies were not only untrue but unkind. The Polish Government in exile told the Home Army not to start the Rising - ignored - and really, when the Reds just sat on the easter side of the Wisla the outcome was unavoidable.
If your quote from Orwell is so famous, I am a big reader and I've never heard of it!!
I suggest that if you are seeking reparations from the ones who helped the Home Army to fail in its Rising attempt, the sole reparation maker should be Russia in the name of Stalin!!!!!!!
It was interesting to read your comments as a Pole (I assume) albeit I disagree with them as you no doubt disagree with mine - that is the human right of both.
Leslie
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Post by ludikundera on Aug 1, 2007 16:03:38 GMT -7
Here's the full article Orwell wrote on September 1, 1944: whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/essay/tribune/AsIPlease19440901.htmlYou're right. It's not fair to lay the same amount of blame on the Western allies as on Stalin and the Soviets, and I didn't mean to do that. Clearly, the Soviets, had they wanted to, were in a much better position to help the Poles than were the Americans and the British. And some airdrops were made by the British. Although they were insubstantial, they were something. British aircraft were lost in the Polish cause. What I do lay blame on is the ease with which the Allies, and specifically the Americans, gave in to the Soviets and their demands. When Stalin forbade sending planes, for example, Churchill proposed to Roosevelt that they be sent anyway. Roosevelt wasn't buying. Since both Poland and the Soviets were "allies", Britain and the Americans had to choose which to support. They chose the stronger: the Soviets. It's understandable. I simply don't think we should refuse to criticize them for it. Plus, the Western Allies didn't actually do anything to hinder the uprising. They were, as Pawian and I have discussed in the Rydzyk thread, simply indifferent. But, because indifference is sometimes seen as quiet cooperation, then we can take that as a valid position in this case, too. And, if it can be said that Poles share the blame for the Holocaust because of indifference to the fate of Polish Jews, then, surely, it can also be said that the British and the Americans share the blame for the failure of the Warsaw Uprising because of their indifference to the fate of the people of Warsaw. I say use this to milk money from the West. What's right for one, is right for all. No?
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Post by leslie on Aug 1, 2007 20:15:59 GMT -7
Lundikera Pleased to see we really are in a large measure of agreement. I was only a schoolboy at the time, but reading subsequent accounts the British people were more concerned with their being bombed to hell to have too much concern about what was happening in Poland - apart from the people who took a wider view of the world and the events affecting the war. After all, Warszawa was more than 1000 miles away and we were so involved in trying to whip the Nazis into submission - and not having an easy job of it. I think also people remembered we had gone immediately to the aid of France and they had just laid down their arms and walked home after a short period of being shot at! I think we could have done more - for example released the Polish Parachute Brigade at the time posted in England, but I am sure they would have been slaughtered by the Nazis as they floated down (perhaps even shot at by the Reds because they were Poles). Leslie
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 1, 2007 23:05:06 GMT -7
The Warsaw Uprising failed because Poland's allies stood by and watched. The Soviets, obviously, as well as the West. No. The Rising fell because, despite their bravery and sacrifice, Poles were totally unprepared. Armed only with a few thousand pistols and Molotov cocktails which sufficed for only 10% of insurgents, they had to combat the best army of the world. That they combatted it for so long is amazing, but the result would have been the same with allies help or without it. Oh, it`s so typically Polish: rub our guilt into the world`s face. It wasn`t us who made a mistake, it was the wretched world which contributed to the failure! Yes, Kaczynski brothers tried to do it recently at the European summit. They claimed that German invasion cost Poland a lot of victims which today could add to the population that is why Poland needs more power in Europe. What reaction did it cause? Laughter. Do you know a better way to extract reparation payments from the world for our lost Rising so that it didn`t evoke laughter? And a lot of women dressed in black robes reconstructing mourning scenes, with a lot of crying and moaning.....
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 1, 2007 23:32:41 GMT -7
Warsaw uprising? Thats a tough one. I like to compare it to the French resistance which was little if anything. Ever hear of the Paris Uprising? Yes, I heard about it. Even saw photos. Scenes very similar to those in Warsaw. With substantial differences: Paris Rising lasted 3 days, ended with German quick capitulation. The advancing American army, after learning about the Rising and urged by influential general de Gaulle, quickened its march and reached Paris to help insurgents. The French were wiser and knew when to start a rising. Poles, as usual, chose a suicidal fight without prospects of winning. Tha`ts for sure. It was the time of revenge for 5 years of brutal occupation. Probably not. They went into combat and killed for vengeful reasons, I suppose they is no reward for it in Heaven.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 2, 2007 2:54:35 GMT -7
You're right. It's not fair to lay the same amount of blame on the Western allies as on Stalin and the Soviets, and I didn't mean to do that. Clearly, the Soviets, had they wanted to, were in a much better position to help the Poles than were the Americans and the British. In the previous thread you used some maths to help you explain your opinion. Let`s use it again. How about dividing the blame so that every trecherous ally get their share? It could be 80% blame of Soviets and the remaining 20% of Western allies. Or other proportions? Now it is a short way to evaluate the price of the failure at 100 billion dollars, and the calculation is easy that Soviets should pay us 80 billion for the failed Rising. How do you like my maths? hahahahahaha They were nothing in face of the needs. Most drops fell into German hands. What I do lay blame on in the case of the futile Rising is the ease with which Poles ventured on such an exploit as the general Rising without arms, including heavy ones and ammunition, and without any earlier cooperation with the allies. It has been always so and it will be so in the future. Poland, when put against Russia on the scales for the allies to choose the heavier player, will always lose. That`s reality. Therefore you can`t put all the blame on allies for the lost Rising. Stalin didn`t have to help, the Rising was directed against Soviets too. He would have been reallly stupid to help. We know from history that he wasn`t. He took his time until Polish patriots were dealt with by Germans, that was a wonderful opportunity for him. The Western allies didn`t help because they couldn`t - Warsaw was too far. Even if they made Stalin allow shuttle flights of RAF bombers, it wouldn`t have changed anything. The Rising would have been longer, that`s all. The conclusion is simple - Poles started a military brawl with romantic enthusiasm but without any deeper consideration if it had any chances of success. They didn`t do anything to prevent it because they were surprised. The Polish government in exile hadn`t informed allies about it. OK, I can partly agree with it. Allies could have done more than they did just like Poles could have done more for Jews during occupation.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 2, 2007 3:02:04 GMT -7
Plus, the Western Allies didn't actually do anything to hinder the uprising. They were, as Pawian and I have discussed in the Rydzyk thread, simply indifferent. Good that you reminded me of Rydzyk thread. There I jokingly suggested that you are a cyborg hahahaha. You partly agreed and said that it is logic which appeals to you most in case of antisemitism. "I'm affected by a good argument, something that makes sense to me. Usually, this argument that makes sense to me includes things a cyborg like me can process: logic, facts, and other inhuman factors."Comparing your argumentation in Rydzyk thread and here I can see certain discrepancy. Talking about the Rising you don`t stick to logic and facts any longer. The logic of the Rising is that it was lost in the moment it started. Therefore it is illogical and against facts to try to put blame on everybody except for headlessly romantic Poles.
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Post by ludikundera on Aug 2, 2007 13:08:07 GMT -7
Fact: Roosevelt knew of a planned rising in 1943:
Secretary of State Cordell Hull to Roosevelt in a telegram dated November 23, 1943:
"A rising in Poland against Germany is being panned to break out at a moment mutually agreed upon with our Allies either before or at the very moment of the entry of Soviet troops into Poland.
(source: Davies, Norman. Rising '44. 206)
Not to mention that the rising lasted for some time, during which the Western Allies were informed about it. But they didn't want to upset Stalin, so they didn't do much. I think the U.S. even had an airbase in the Ukraine. As for the Soviets, well, they were obligated to provide allied support; so, yes, Stalin had to help. He just didn't want to because he had nice plans to use Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe as Soviet colonies.
Conclusion:
Germany is responsible most of all. Poles and Soviets share most of the responsibility on the Allied side, with the Americans and British bringing up the rear.
Post-script:
Even if the failure of the Warsaw Uprising was just Poland's "fault", which I don't think it was, I'd still advocate that it be used as much as possible to guilt money out of West, Russia and Germany. Reparations have little to do with responsibility, and lots to do with media manipulation and being able to "sell" a tragedy.
As for how we do it, the more theatrical and the more absurd, the better. Given enough time, the world will come around. And if they don't, we'll just accuse them of anti-Polonism!
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