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Post by leslie on Aug 6, 2007 12:10:27 GMT -7
Pawi
And you are Polish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Leslie (Defender of just about anything)
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Post by hollister on Aug 6, 2007 12:26:49 GMT -7
There appears to be only one way to settle this.....
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 6, 2007 13:24:00 GMT -7
There appears to be only one way to settle this..... A very nice short film, I have added it to my favourites, her boobies... tfu, beauty is really striking.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 6, 2007 13:25:05 GMT -7
Pawi And you are Polish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Leslie (Defender of just about anything) I am Polish and that is why I have to combat my inborn romanticism every day. Do you think it is easy?? On most occasions I succeed......
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george
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Post by george on Aug 6, 2007 16:03:36 GMT -7
This whole discussion is not about wheather it was the right or wrong thing to do. That is debatable. However what i consider digusting is the denigration of the Warsaw Rising participants. Here were people who were so at the end of their rope, from the dehumanizing treatment they received from an invading army. Just think if the Brits or Americans suffered what the Poles suffered. Think about it for a minute. Think about an invading army setting up death camps because of a peoples religion and culture. Do you think any of its citizens would denigrate its fighting participates? Think about if all peoples thought like some and gave into its immoral invading armies without a fight. Disagreeing is one thing, insulting their memories is another. Thats my beef!The Americans and the Brits were not a victim of an invading Army such as the Nazi's. Only because they were blessed by an ocean protecting them. The Poles didn't have have that blessing. Lets give credit where credit is due. You can give all your ooh la la's and hahaha's you want, but the guilt of desecrating the memories of the Warsaw Rising victims is on you and you only.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 7, 2007 0:37:37 GMT -7
This whole discussion is not about wheather it was the right or wrong thing to do. That is debatable. However what i consider digusting is the denigration of the Warsaw Rising participants. I think you imagined too much during our discussion and saw things which weren`t in it. I don`t denigrate fighters. If you read my posts in this thread more carefully, you would know that I respect their individual bravery and heroism. What I critisize most is the leaders who gave an order to fight as well as the whole idea of the Rising. Again you imagine too much. I don`t desecrate the memory of victims. Just on the contrary - I can`t forget about the REAL victims of the Rising. It is you who, by idealizing the Rising and its fighters, ignore the tragic reality that civilians in Warsaw became hostages without much chance of survival. So, who is desecrating the memory of real victims? PS. From a diary of an insurgent: When the Rising didn`t win and the city was shelled and bombed without mercy, the civilians started changing their attitude towards insurgents. " Murderers, murderers, get out of here!" cried a woman when she saw fighters hastily passing through the backyard of her house.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 8, 2007 14:49:34 GMT -7
GEORGE,
Below there are a few loose remarks about the Rising. I wrote them two years ago while discussing the matter with another idealistic man, in the same fashion as with you. Our discussion got more and more heated, later we started arguing and it became nasty.
And it wasn`t my fault. I simply presented my opinions. It was the other side which went off the rail and became abusive.
I haven`t changed my opinions since then. I reject all your accusations about deintegrating or insulting anybody. I have my opinions and I have the right to them. Do I critizise your controvercial opinions on other matters, e.g. church, God etc? No.
So don`t critisize me for having such opinions on the Rising.
200.000 victims on the Polish side versus a dozen thousand on German isn`t anything noble. There are various estimates: from 10.000 to 17.000 Nazi soldiers were killed. However, don`t forget many of them weren`t even German, they came from other countries, mostly Eastern Europe. They were the worst scum, they joined SS to get an opportunity to rob, rape, plunder and murder. Polish pearls were obliterated by pigs.
There were no serious assurances and talks on allies` part to help the Rising. It was a surprise to the Allies. Neither Churchill, nor Roosevelt, not to mention Stalin, had openly promised to help Poles. There were no bilateral, let alone multilateral agreements and pacts.
I do not encourage society to lose its honour. But it doesn`t mean you can fight for honour having no weapons. The fight is honourable when you are prepared. If not, it turns into a massacre of soldiers and civilians, and for me it is not honourable anymore, it is outrageous and ridiculous. Just like Kai said, hold honour in high esteem, but pick your battles carefully.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 8, 2007 14:59:01 GMT -7
Why don`t we mention children who also fought in the Rising? There is even a monument to the Little Insurgent. finplast.pl/p_mpowst02.jpg I don`t despise people who fought. What I despise is the fight in which children have to take part because the adults don`t have enough means on their own. Have you got children? I have. Polish commanders expected that their insurgents would get their weapons as booty from killed Germans. They even managed to seize three Pantera tanks which helped liberate concentration camp with Jews from all over Europe. It`s great but ...... Three tanks against the experienced, well-equipped, fanatic German army? In the same way Napoleon should have assumed that he didn`t need any weapons before attacking Russia because he would get them from Russians..... I have been fascinated with the Rising since my childhood. I devoured books about it, photoalbums and diaries. Fiction and documentaries. Later I downloaded info and photos from the net. My opinion on the Rising evolved over these years - when a boy, I also considered it a great heroic achievement, just like other Polish Risings. But later I changed my mind. Some people say that commanders are not responsible for Stalin`s trechery. Yes, they are. They are responsible because they let themselves be deceived by Stalin, the cruellest dictator in modern history. The Rising broke out after 17 September 1939. After Katyn. After breaking of political relations with the Polish government in London. After arresting AK soldiers on the Polish territory freed by the Red Army. To know all these facts and still believe Stalin/Soviets is really a major irresponsibility. You must be really a bad politician/general.
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Post by hollister on Aug 9, 2007 5:15:14 GMT -7
I don't want to get drawn into this discussion again (been there done that - got the t-shirt) but I will say this --- it does grate on me when people say that WWII started on Dec. 7th. and over emphasize D-Day. It is all about context - but context makes things messy and harder to put things simply and concisely. When Pawain first brought up his feelings I reacted pretty strongly - after some real reflection on my part - and facing the fact that I am at heart a romanticist - I have come to see that Pawain has a real point - and that point is part of the story of the Uprising and must be acknowledged. To say the Uprising was a static event does it harm - the Uprising in a very real way is continuing to this day - because Poles are still dealing with the outcome(s) of the Uprising - I think the motivations of the current government and the struggles and scandals are in part due to feelings and conceptions about what defines "Poland" that were set in motion during those days.
*** I want to add that the Uprising also has affected how other countries see "Poland" as well.
Also EU and USA where is Poland's Marshal Plan? Do they not deserve the same hands up as other countries received post WWII?
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Post by ludikundera on Aug 9, 2007 11:57:32 GMT -7
And part of the reason we do have a romantic notion of the Uprising is due to the way it was portrayed and interpreted by the communists, post-war: the more the pro-communists were anti-rising, the more pro-rising became the anti-communists.
Perhaps it is time to re-evaluate.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 10, 2007 14:00:45 GMT -7
And part of the reason we do have a romantic notion of the Uprising is due to the way it was portrayed and interpreted by the communists, post-war: the more the pro-communists were anti-rising, the more pro-rising became the anti-communists. Perhaps it is time to re-evaluate. Exactly. Today`s bombastic celebrations are the perfect opposite of communist distorted black propaganda about the Rising.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Feb 2, 2008 11:27:43 GMT -7
;D ;D ;D ;D you think so? I understand you're positive the with the always reasonable intellectuals of Kraków (as you see it) Poland wouldn't have ended up with the size of Czechia. Of course not. Look at the map of Poland when Krakow was the capital: You see? From sea to sea!! hahahahahahaha And what happened when Warsaw became a capital? Partitions!!! hahahahaha Who was better taking care of the country: Krakowians or Warsawians? hahahahahaha Hotheads from Wrocław? You mean Volksturm that fought hard against Soviet armies?? hahahaha As for Lvov, which hotheads do you mean? Polish or Ukrainian? Yes, I like them and their literature. I still wonder how Czechs could survive so easily all European brawls. I think it is their sybaritic laziness. Poles could learn from Czechs a lot! hahahaha Combat? Yes, why not. Do you also mean combat with bare hands against tanks??? If so, count me out. Bare hands against tanks won`t help either. Yes, I have a problem with Warszawa. I love this city so much and every time I see old pictures of pre-war Warsaw I get angry at Poles` stupidity which always makes us piss against the wind, and then wake up with wet pants. It is sad. Warsaw could be more beautiful than Prague today. Dear Livia, I have decided to introduce you to the thread which was very popular last year. I know you are a big girl, mature and responsible. Read the thread and give us your opinion on it. If the contents of the thread is too hot at times, stop reading and take a cold shower. hahahaha
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Post by valpomike on Feb 2, 2008 11:52:51 GMT -7
Pawian,
Please don't get me going, on this WWII. You all know how I think of what the Germans did to Poland and her people. The most inportant thing is that we, all, never let this happen again. Someone allways wants to hurt Poland, and take from her, and her people, this is why we must all unite and stand for her.
Michael Dabrowski
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Feb 2, 2008 12:01:40 GMT -7
Pawian, Please don't get me going, on this WWII. You all know how I think of what the Germans did to Poland and her people. The most inportant thing is that we, all, never let this happen again. Someone allways wants to hurt Poland, and take from her, and her people, this is why we must all unite and stand for her. Poor Poland! I am crying every time I think about her..... I am such a patriot. More than Kosciuszko.....
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Post by livia on Feb 3, 2008 4:52:48 GMT -7
Dear Livia, I have decided to introduce you to the thread which was very popular last year. I know you are a big girl, mature and responsible. Read the thread and give us your opinion on it. If the contents of the thread is too hot at times, stop reading and take a cold shower. hahahaha Dear Pawian, I know you are a big boy, mature and well-balanced, you never ger mad for instance What is your question? What do I think about The Uprising? I told you in another thread. I wish the Germans never attacked us. And there're more important things than nice buildings.
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