george
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Post by george on Aug 2, 2007 16:46:47 GMT -7
"Probably not. They went into combat and killed for vengeful reasons, I suppose they is no reward for it in Heaven."
That is one of the most strange comments i heard in a while. Your country is being destroyed and there are plans for its ( population ) extermination. And because they are fighting back , your considering it " vengeful? That comment calls for a couch session.
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Post by Jaga on Aug 2, 2007 17:03:30 GMT -7
I do not know how to judge the Warsaw Uprising. It was heroic and I have a respect for all people who fought. On the other hand, its outcome was rather bad than good. Here is a short but interesting information from a Jewish newspaper about it: General Polish uprising commemorated Poland marked the 63rd anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising against the Nazis. On Wednesday, traffic stopped and sirens wailed at the exact hour, 5 p.m., when Poles on Aug. 1, 1944 launched a revolt against the German occupation. The anniversary is vigorously celebrated in Poland in the post-communist era. The communist authorities played down the Polish resistance, not wanting to recall an event during which the Soviet troops allowed the Poles to be slaughtered as they were on the outskirts of the city but refused to provide aid to the anti-occupation forces. During the 63-day battle, 250,00 Poles were killed and much of the city was destroyed. Visitors to Poland sometimes confuse the Warsaw Uprising with the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising of April 19, 1943, when 750 Jewish partisans battled thousands of German troops for nearly a month before being crushed. The Jewish fighters were trying in vain to prevent the further deportation of Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto to death camps. Estimates put the death of Polish Jews under the Nazis at 3 million, 90 percent of Polish Jewry and half of the 6 million Jews killed during the Holocaust. Some 3 million non-Jewish Poles also were murdered by the Nazis. www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/103389.html |
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 3, 2007 0:03:18 GMT -7
"Probably not. They went into combat and killed for vengeful reasons, I suppose they is no reward for it in Heaven." That is one of the most strange comments i heard in a while. Your country is being destroyed and there are plans for its ( population ) extermination. And because they are fighting back , your considering it " vengeful? That comment calls for a couch session. hahahahaha you must be a believer to understand it. I know you aren`t, hence the problem hahahaha You didn`t understand what I meant although I simply followed your "theological" reasoning. You wrote: All in all, for those who partcipated and died in this uprising, i only wish they are rewarded in the afterlife if it exists. They deserve it because they fought the most evil enemy in the history of mankind. I expressed my religious doubts about them being rewarded in the afterlife: "Probably not. They went into combat and killed for vengeful reasons, I suppose they is no reward for it in Heaven." I am sorry but it is written that you should love your neighbour and forgive him not seven times but seventy seven. Did Poles love their neighbours Germans? Did they forgive them? No. They killed them mercilessly. And one commandment says: thou shall not kill. That is why I suppose there will be no reward. That is theological reasoning and has nothing to do with the ideas of patriotism or the need to defend your country and people from destruction. I hope this couch session is enough and you understand it better now. hahahahahaha |
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george
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Post by george on Aug 3, 2007 8:40:02 GMT -7
i doubt if Christ was a sap. Would the 750 Jews who took part in the Warsaw Uprising also be considered " vengeful"? By your strange logic i guess they would be. If someone would intend to kill my family, you can bet your last Zloty i would defend them, not withstanding your strange sort of Chritianity where Christians can be slaughtered without defending themselves. If that was the case, Christianity would not even exist today. I doubt if Christ had in mind the " seven times seventy " theory if his people were threatened with extermination. Also, if that were the case of not defending yourself, i guess you wouldn't be here today. Ha ha ha ha
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 3, 2007 11:58:53 GMT -7
i doubt if Christ was a sap. Would the 750 Jews who took part in the Warsaw Uprising also be considered " vengeful"? Why not? They had more reasons to be vengeful... My logic isn`t strange. It is just mine, if you don`t understand it, I am sorry. The problem is that you don`t know much about the situation in Warsaw preceding 1 August 1944. Germans were retreating, they minimised their usual terror and repressions hoping for Polish cooperation in repelling the Red Army. The sad truth is that my family, if it had ever lived in Warsaw, would have been in much greater danger due to insurgents` activity during the Rising than Germans`activity during their retreat. That is why I will not change my logic: I still claim that Poles, when they went into combat, didn `t do it because there was some imminent lethal danger. What they had in mind was the sweet vengence for 5 years of terror and executions. I cannot accept it, it`s sinful. I am not interested in what Christ had in mind. I know what I have in mind today. Killing for vengence is the worst of all. Hey , I haven`t killed anybody in self defence yet. What do you mean? I hope this extra couch session will suffice to get things straight for you. If not, come round any time and I will be glad to help you again. |
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Post by leslie on Aug 3, 2007 12:12:29 GMT -7
Pawian wrote
'Germans were retreating, they minimised their usual terror and repressions hoping for Polish cooperation in repelling the Red Army.'
Pawi
I may have got this wrong, but I thought when the Nazis were retreating from Warszawa in the face of the apparently oncoming Reds, they had no thoughts of the Poles whom the Nazis thought as being less than humans, but that before they went they were going to complete their razing of Warszawa to the ground which they had been putting into practice during their occupation. This of course was in large part why the Rising came about, the Home Army hoping that the Reds would cross the Wisla and help them. As it happened 'tough!. So in the end such a large part of Warszawa simply disappeared. The Home Army realising that the Reds were not coming to help them, simply gave in to stop any more Polish bloodshed.
Leslie
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Post by leslie on Aug 3, 2007 12:15:40 GMT -7
George
The commandment you quoted 'Thou shalt not kill' must have been mangled in the translation as it should have read 'Thou shalt not kill, unless somebody is trying to kill you'!
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 3, 2007 13:19:35 GMT -7
I may have got this wrong, but I thought when the Nazis were retreating from Warszawa in the face of the apparently oncoming Reds, they had no thoughts of the Poles whom the Nazis thought as being less than humans, but that before they went they were going to complete their razing of Warszawa to the ground which they had been putting into practice during their occupation. Razing to the ground isn`t the same as murdering spree which took place during the Rising. Besides, Krakow was also destined to disappear, but it survived thanks to fast Russian offensive. I am sorry Les but you are gravely mistaken. Home Army commanders didn`t even think that the Red Army could help them. The Rising started to gain control of the city before Russians could do it. That was the main political motive of the Rising - create a political power in free Warsaw and do it more quickly than Russians. The Red Army`s help began to be wanted and looked forward to when it was clear that the Rising was lost. How merciful guys they were! They stopped only after 200.000 people were killed. What were they fackin thinking about when they started? That a few thousand boys armed with pistols and Molotov cocktails were able to throw Germans out of a strategic city??? They were real cretins to think so. |
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george
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Post by george on Aug 4, 2007 10:29:09 GMT -7
All in all , for a Pole to call some the most heroic of its citizens " revengful " is not only strange but also a insult. The Warsaw Uprising was one of the most heroic acts of World War 2.
Jews had more reason to be vengful? Ha Ha ha. The Poles WERE next. Check out the Nazi's master plan. You didn't have Christ in mind, but that didn't stop you from quoting him" Seven times Seventy". Maybe its the word according to " Pawian".
Maybe the heroes of Warsaw Uprising lost and the majority were killed, but in the end they died in dignity. They were not vengful or sinful, or evil according to some its citizens. Those citizens should be ashamed to denigrate and insult its most heroic citizens of the last two hundred years of Polish history.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 4, 2007 11:52:57 GMT -7
All in all , for a Pole to call some the most heroic of its citizens " revengful " is not only strange but also a insult. O la la I hope you are not going to sue me for that hahahahahahahahaha How about a duel? hahahahaha Seriously: if you think it is an insult, it is your private opinion which I don`t accept. But, suppose, even if it verges on insult, I have the right to it because I am Polish and I know my peoples very well: all their virtues and vices and I have the right to be critical like no other man in the world. Germans and Russians can`t be critical about the Rising but Poles can. And I will remain critical about the Rising and no silly counter opinions will change it. You defend the Rising from a certain naively idealistic point of view which is common among aliens brought up in the West. You and other people of your sort who admire the Rising just don`t realise what really happened there, you cannot comprehend the whole tragedy which took place in Warsaw in 1944, the total number of 200. 000 killed people is abstract to you. It is not abstract to me and that is why I am against the Rising. I am so sorry to disagree, because I tend to see it as one of the biggest political and military mistakes that Poles have ever committed. Fortunately, the lesson has been taught. No more Risings in recent Polish history, only peaceful resistance and pressure. What`s this silly hahahaha? So, what about Jews? Finally you agree they could be vengeful? It was you who doubted Jesus words and made up your own interpretation. These are your words: I doubt if Christ had in mind the " seven times seventy " theory if his people were threatened with extermination.I simply disagreed with it. I believe it doesn`t matter if you are threatened with extermination or not, you shouldn`t kill for vengeancel and the words about forgiving are valid on all occasions. Jesus`s life and actions support my view too. Let it be so. o la la how forgetful you are! Why do you only remember heroes, i.e., fighters? What about civilians? 150.000 died in the most horrible way. If they could rise from the dead and meet you, I am afraid they wouldn`t tell you their death was noble. It is hard to discuss romantic naivety like that. But I can understand you. You cherish certain romantic ideals. Let it be so. |
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Post by leslie on Aug 4, 2007 12:14:28 GMT -7
Pawi
In your last posting you challenged George to a duel. I don't know whether there is a word that describes it, but make that into a Triel ( a duel with one on one side and two on the other - guess who the second one on George's side is!!!!) Hahahahaha
Leslie - Defender of the Rising (after all I started the thread!!)
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Post by ludikundera on Aug 4, 2007 13:54:11 GMT -7
And after the three of you shoot each other to death, the rest off us will argue over whether your triel was an act of heroism or just a big mistake!
;D
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scatts
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Post by scatts on Aug 5, 2007 23:47:11 GMT -7
On the whole, I think I agree with Pawian more than I do with others on this issue. It was a 'heroic' act but only in a 'romantic fool' kind of way and perhaps at a time when there really was very little else to do anyway. The outcome was clearly a disaster and it annoys me because it does in many ways highlight the Polish tendency to sometimes do stubborn and stupid things, suffer the consequences and then try to blame everyone else for what went wrong.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 6, 2007 11:38:05 GMT -7
The outcome was clearly a disaster and it annoys me because it does in many ways highlight the Polish tendency to sometimes do stubborn and stupid things, suffer the consequences and then try to blame everyone else for what went wrong. Exactly. Being a responsible man, that`s what I really hate - putting blame on somebody else. Unfortunately, it seems that Poles need such transfer of responsibility, it consoles heartbroken patriotic souls. We could have lost a military battle but we won morally. The recent celebrations of the Rising prove it. What a shame! But without me. I won`t celebrate any anniversaries. |
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Aug 6, 2007 11:40:11 GMT -7
Pawi In your last posting you challenged George to a duel. I don't know whether there is a word that describes it, but make that into a Triel ( a duel with one on one side and two on the other - guess who the second one on George's side is!!!!) Hahahahaha Leslie - Defender of the Rising (after all I started the thread!!) Les, you got it all wrong. You aren`t supposed to be the defender of the Rising. As a Brit you must be ther Defender of the Crown! Leave this pathetic Rising alone and take care of more important things! |
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