george
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 568
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Post by george on Dec 18, 2005 10:54:01 GMT -7
Where i work there are several Russian Jews who work there. Its my understanding that 10 or 15 years ago under pressure from the US that people from Russia who could prove they were at least somewhat Jewish were allowed to emigrate to the US. The reason being that they were discriminated against. My question is ( and maybe Eric who may or may not be Jewish can answer this for me ) Was there that much bigotry in the ex Soviet Union and now Russia if you were Jewish? It did strike that these people do not look Slavic and i found out later that they were all Jews from Russia.
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Post by Jaga on Dec 18, 2005 18:27:00 GMT -7
George,
from what I understand - there is quite a conflict between Russians from Russia (in the USA) and Jewish from Russia even if they speak the same language. We had a girl in the forum earlier, Alexandra (Eric should remember her), she was complaining that she was treated badly by a Jewish waiter from Russia.
Referring to the question of Jews and communism. Some Jewish people, at least in Poland - were quite involved in the communistic party, there were actally two fractions in communistic movement in Poland - one pro-Jewish and one nationalistic anti-Jewish.
Anyways, the fall of communism in Poland, but especially in Russia - could bring some extra anti-semitic sentiment because of the invilvement of some JEwish people in the Soviet system.
By the way, this famous guy, Zhirinowsky - is a Russian Jew.
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Post by Jaga on Dec 18, 2005 18:29:18 GMT -7
Here is a bit more about Polish communistic fractions:
The Polish Communists were divided into two informal factions, named "Natolin" and "Pulawy" after governmental building (Palace of Natolin near Warsaw) and Pulawska street in Warsaw where they had their meetings. Natolin consisted previously of ethnic Poles of peasant origin and had a nationalist tendency of a peculiar Communist sort. Pulawy included Jewish Communists as well as old communist intelligentsia and after 1956 was more liberal." (...)
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Post by suzanne on Dec 18, 2005 18:51:28 GMT -7
I, too, would be curious to hear about the rapport between Russian Jews and Russian non-Jews, since I don't know anything about it either. But I've always sensed there is a lot of discrimination and tension there.
I used to teach ESL (English as a Second Language) and I had a number of Russian Jewish ESL students. One of them explained to me that she considered herself to be Jewish, not Russian and she asked me why all her coworkers thought of her as Russian and not Jewish. This clearly bothered her, maybe even offended her a little. I had to explain to her that probably no one meant any offense; if you're from Russia and speak Russian and have a thick Russian accent, Americans will think of you as Russian, period. Unless you are dealing with American Jews who get to know you in a Jewish religious/cultural setting.
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Post by Jaga on Dec 18, 2005 19:12:59 GMT -7
Susan,
yes, this is a delicate subject - especially if you have to talk to Russian nationalist, Polish nationalist and Jewish nationalist together, I will email Eric to explain it to us
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Post by Jaga on Dec 18, 2005 19:33:36 GMT -7
OK, I did some research on the net - I remember hearing about it before. Russian Jews are treated like the refugees from Vietnam, Cambodia etc so they have a special treatment. This may cause some jealousy among other immigrant groups: For Russian Jews, the federal laws as well as the state laws are much more generous. Russian refugees -- as well as Cambodians, Vietnamese, Thais and Laotians -- are given four months of federal assistance, and then they're allowed to go on welfare right away. The regular immigrant population, outside of these small groups, are not allowed to go on welfare until they've been here for five years. Those are a very difficult five years; they come over with little money, no English, few job skills. That's the period of time when they really need some help. You can only surmise that making them wait five years is an effort to push them back home. I also think that they don't want people to flee here in order to get on welfare. Russian Jews also succeeded in a lot of ways because they had intact families here. There are lots of foundations for Jewish refugees that are directly involved in assisting these families. There's a federal/international network that helps them; there's a lot of interest in maintaining religious freedom. And certainly we were against the Soviet Union, so we love to help anyone who wants to flee. www.salon.com/books/int/2002/02/04/hancock/index3.htmland here is another site - but this site is probably a bit antisemitic in nature: compuserb.com/jews&ssi.htmbut they do have probably some factual information, especially about social secrity benefits: Russian Jewish immigrants are being given favorable treatment. They have received millions upon millions of dollars in government "resettlement grants" and welfare subsidies. As unbelievable as it seems, Russian Jews who immigrate to the U.S. are eligible for free Medicaid health insurance, free housing, free food stamps, and--believe it or not--free Social Security benefits!
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Dec 19, 2005 4:32:26 GMT -7
My question is ( and maybe Eric who may or may not be Jewish can answer this for me ) Was there that much bigotry in the ex Soviet Union and now Russia if you were Jewish? By bigotry you probably mean prejudice, either racial or national. It is very simple to test if there is such prejudice in the country: just find out if calling somebody a Jew is considered neutral or offensive. I know that Jews in Russia do not openly boast of their origin because they are afraid of being treated with biased scorn. The history of the oppression of Jews in Russia is very long, even the word "pogrom" comes from Russian. The same applies to Poland, unfortunately. E.g., Polish moron soccer fans call each other Jews and it is meant as an offence. Calling a shopkeeper or business partner a Jew is also considered derogatory.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on Dec 19, 2005 4:41:45 GMT -7
OK, Russian Jews are treated like the refugees from Vietnam, Cambodia etc so they have a special treatment. For Russian Jews, the federal laws as well as the state laws are much more generous. Russian refugees -- as well as Cambodians, Vietnamese, Thais and Laotians -- are given four months of federal assistance, and then they're allowed to go on welfare right away. There are lots of foundations for Jewish refugees that are directly involved in assisting these families. There's a federal/international network that helps them; there's a lot of interest in maintaining religious freedom. And certainly we were against the Soviet Union, so we love to help anyone who wants to flee. Russian Jewish immigrants are being given favorable treatment. They have received millions upon millions of dollars in government "resettlement grants" and welfare subsidies. As unbelievable as it seems, Russian Jews who immigrate to the U.S. are eligible for free Medicaid health insurance, free housing, free food stamps, and--believe it or not--free Social Security benefits! Russian Jews, and probably all Jews, are getting special favourable treatment in the US because American Jews are very influential and do not hesitate to help their brothers/compatriots/kin. I have seen such solidarity among Jews when I was in the USA and I must say I liked it. It is good when people of the same origin keep together and help one another. I missed this solidarity in Polish people a lot. Polish immigrant stories are full of complaints about Polish employers who don`t pay or treat their compatriots like slaves.
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Post by bescheid on Dec 19, 2005 10:27:04 GMT -7
Not so today, but, in the past years of Russian communism. Russians and Ukrainians for immigration into the USA, was very difficult. So, where there is a will, there is a way. Canada: Through the various Church organizations, these families (Russian/Ukrainian) could obtain through the religious organizations,sponsored passage to Canada. Once on Canadian soil, these organizations would assist them (Russian/Ukrainian) families in obtaining Canadian citizenship. Then, if this was their goal, they could immigrate into the USA as Canadian citizens, or, in the least, obtain a USA resident visa. One of those pipelines was through Castlegar British Columbia (BC), this is one of three Major original immigration and location centres of the Doukhobors (Dukhobor). Many of the Russian/Ukrainian Jewish families found refuge there for later relocation. As such, this one of the primary reasons of such a large Russian/Ukrainian population on this side of the Canadian boarder (frontier). www.wrmea.com/backissues/0397/9703035.htmThe above url is a sample of some major issues of cause and effect of this migration out of Russia. Charles
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Post by Eric on Dec 21, 2005 5:06:19 GMT -7
In the USSR, it was almost a paradox about the existence of Jews. They suffered terribly, of course, during WWII, and most Jewish populations in the western USSR were obliterated. Likewise, after the war, the Jewish religion was surpressed probably more than any other.
That said, many Jews occupied high positions in the government, various agencies, etc. Many prominent employees of "Mosfilm" were Jews, too.
The Soviet (and until very recently, Russian) citizen passport had a question about nationality, and Jewish is considered a nationality here. In the USSR, Jews alone had a free right to emigrate from the country. Because of this, however, many universities and institutes began denying Jews the right to study there, because they didn't want to educate these people who would then most likely leave the country and use their education abroad.
Of course, there is the saying that a Jew in Russia is considered a foreigner (a Jew), but a Jew in Israel is also considered a foreigner (a Russian).
So, you can see it is a paradox. Soviet-patriot Jews had a very good life, whereas those Jews who didn't work in the government considered themselves repressed probably more than anyone else, except Chechens.
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Post by Eric on Dec 21, 2005 5:06:37 GMT -7
BTW, I'm not Jewish (although you'd be surprised how many people think I am!).
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Post by pieter on Dec 21, 2005 14:53:37 GMT -7
BTW, I'm not Jewish (although you'd be surprised how many people think I am!). Eric, That is because you look like a jewish intellectual, in the sense of someone who reads a lot of books, writes a lot, studies whole his life and so knows a lot. For me the prototypical Cosmopolitan jew. Even your fondness of the Sovjetunion sounds jewish, because many jews who suffered from ethnic nationalism thought that Communism and Socialism would be better for them, because that was Internationalist, so they were just one of the ethnic groups, and not "the other", or "alien" as they were considered by other European nationalities for centuries. Pieter
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Post by bescheid on Dec 21, 2005 15:47:39 GMT -7
Pieter
What does a Jewish person look like? I know that you are democratic and Hollander, but, would I know that if per-chance, we were to meet? And just by sight?
I am German, but, in Canada, often am confused as French. And the French Canadian could care less...as we get along quite well once I open my mouth.
My point is this though, Pieter, I mean not as to discredit you, but, to bring into focus, a problem of identification by appearance.
The Nuremberg laws of 15 Sept. 1935: A Jew was any one with three Jewish grandparents, whilst a person who had two Jewish grandparents and belonged to the Jewish religious community, or who married to a ,"full Jew", was considered a Jew. That was the definition of manual of the late NSDAP.
So, in essence, what does a Jew look like?
As a person, I have no idea. And this for sure!
As to judge the appearance of Eric, I would have thought perhaps, he was Swiss. I would have never thought of him as Jewish. The reason of my perception of thought, is: My first wife was Swiss, and so, I am familiar with the features of Swiss. And so, with many of us mortals, we are familiar with what we are accustomed to believe.
Charles
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nancy
European
Posts: 2,144
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Post by nancy on Dec 21, 2005 18:54:19 GMT -7
are Pieter and Charles refering to some photo of Eric that we cannot see? perhaps from Bella? I agree, though, with Charles, "what does a jewish person look like?" That sounds like a stereotype of some sort. once, I was on a ferry from Ireland to England, and an Irishman asked me "What part of Ireland are you from?" I told him I was from "the far west" (Boston). At the time, I was pleased to be taken for Irish.
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Post by Eric on Dec 25, 2005 4:53:48 GMT -7
BTW, I'm not Jewish (although you'd be surprised how many people think I am!). Eric, That is because you look like a jewish intellectual, in the sense of someone who reads a lot of books, writes a lot, studies whole his life and so knows a lot. For me the prototypical Cosmopolitan jew. Even your fondness of the Sovjetunion sounds jewish, because many jews who suffered from ethnic nationalism thought that Communism and Socialism would be better for them, because that was Internationalist, so they were just one of the ethnic groups, and not "the other", or "alien" as they were considered by other European nationalities for centuries. Pieter Thanks for your compliments. I think I am destined to be a "life-long student".
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