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Post by pieter on Mar 16, 2008 13:26:01 GMT -7
Dutch member of parliament Geert Wilders is working on a provocative tv movie on the Qur'an. It is Mr Wilders' next step in his fight in what he sees as highly dangerous islam. He recently pleaded for a ban of the Qur'an, which he calls fascist. Wilders compared the Holy Book of Islam to Hitler's Mein Kampf. The politician says his film shows similarities with Submission, a film made in 2004 by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. www.fitnathemovie.com/www.pvv.nl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=828&Itemid=1The movie will be released at the end of this month and the expectation is that the reaction of the Muslim world will be violent demonstrations and attacks on Dutch embassy, Dutch people and organisations in Muslim countries. The Dutch embassies all over the world are on high alert and the Dutch prime-minister has had close contacts with his European colleages in the European Union for the case that things might get wrong. The Dutch government and businesscomunity also espects a world wide bojcot of Dutch products. The situation reminds us of the situation with the Danish cartoons, but because it is a movie it might be worse. The movie fitna has polarised the Netherlands before it is even released.
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Post by jimpres on Mar 16, 2008 14:11:44 GMT -7
Good for Mr Wilders. Someone needs to show more about the Quran and the muslims. From my point of view it is "know your enemy" Can't wait to see it. I'm sure we will have more bombings, suicide, etc. Not much respect for life.
Nice to hear from you Pieter
Jim
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Post by pieter on Mar 16, 2008 16:17:19 GMT -7
Jim,
I am just curious what the movie will bring! I have internet again!
Good to hear from you too! (your reaction!)
Pieter
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Post by rdywenur on Mar 16, 2008 16:35:15 GMT -7
Hurray !!!!! Tomorrow as I drink my Heinecken with my corned beef and cabbage I will toast to you Pieter.
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Bob S
European
Rainbow Bear
Posts: 2,052
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Post by Bob S on Mar 16, 2008 22:11:02 GMT -7
Try this one. Some of the videos are sub-titled in Polish. It might be offensive to some, funny to others, a bit of entertainment for a few and a reply to that Dutch film LOL. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by hollister on Mar 17, 2008 2:06:06 GMT -7
Pieter thanks for posting this! - I think I read somewhere that on the anniversary of the publication of the cartoon, it was going to be re-published. Now, in my perhaps faulty memory, that date (the anniversary) has pasted and there was not the HUGE outcry that was feared, is that true?
If you wouldn't mind updating us on the numbers of Muslims in the Netherlands?
Wasn't a filmmaker killed earlier?
I am feeling like such a dolt because all I have at the moment is fuzzy impressions.
And Bob, Your link is the to the video that is currently the number one hit video among some of the coalition troops here - the Pakistani General is still talking about how funny Achmed the Dead Terrorist is and can quote the ENTIRE set if you let him.
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Post by jimpres on Mar 17, 2008 10:12:11 GMT -7
Bob S Thanks for the Ahmed the Dead film. Funny for me. He is right the virgins are specified as female.
Jim
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Post by uncltim on Mar 17, 2008 13:00:55 GMT -7
Good for the Dutch! Enough of these moslem bullies. You know, before they published the cartoons of mohamed I didnt realize that the flags of other nations were flammable!!
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Post by pieter on Mar 17, 2008 16:26:08 GMT -7
Pieter thanks for posting this! - I think I read somewhere that on the anniversary of the publication of the cartoon, it was going to be re-published. Now, in my perhaps faulty memory, that date (the anniversary) has pasted and there was not the HUGE outcry that was feared, is that true? If you wouldn't mind updating us on the numbers of Muslims in the Netherlands? Wasn't a filmmaker killed earlier? I am feeling like such a dolt because all I have at the moment is fuzzy impressions. And Bob, Your link is the to the video that is currently the number one hit video among some of the coalition troops here - the Pakistani General is still talking about how funny Achmed the Dead Terrorist is and can quote the ENTIRE set if you let him. Holly, In the Netherlands the ethnic Dutch make 83% of the Dutch population, other Ethnic groups make 17% of the Dutch population. 9% of the original foreign Dutch have a non-Western origin. They are mainly Turks, Moroccans, Antilleans, Surinamese, and Indonesians. The Turks, Maroccans and parts of the Surinamese and Indonesians are Muslim. Next to that you have a lot of asylumseekers or refugees from Muslimcountries, like Bosniaks, Albanians, Kurds, Iranians, Iraqi people, Somalians, Sudanese, Eritreans, Egyptians and Afghans. The last mentioned form a minority of the Dutch Muslims, most Muslims are Turkish or Maroccan. In the Netherlands the Roman Catholic religion is stil the largests religion with 31% of the believing people, the Dutch Reformed are 13%, the Calvinist 7%, the Muslim 5.5% and other 2.5%, none-believers 41% (secular, artheist and humanisrt people) Languages: Dutch (official), Frisian (official) Yes, on November 2 2004 the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh (offspring of the family of Vincent van Gogh, the painter) was killed in Amsterdam by a Dutch Maroccan Islamist extremist. I hope that I informed you correctly! Pieter
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Post by pieter on Mar 18, 2008 7:04:21 GMT -7
I used the CIA factbook above here, and the figures were from 1999, so nearly 10 years ago. In the meanwhile there has ofcourse been a lot of new newcommers from various Muslim countries. There has been a large influx of Muslims of Kurd, Iranian, Arab, North-African and African origin. We are (like Great-Brittain and France) a very Multi-cultural country, with on the other hand the dominant native secular (humanist-liberal) culture of the Native Dutch. The Muslim influence is rising though, because they are especially located in large cities, and they form working class and Middle class neighbourhoods there.
Next to that there is the influence of Nationalisms of the people of those Muslim countries, like the Turkish nationalism of the Grey Wolves, the Maroccan Nationalism in large city neighbourhoods, the very strong Kurd nationalism (the PKK is active in the Netherlands too), and the differant brands of Arab (Pan-)Nationalism; Nasserism (AEL=Arab European Leage), Baathism (the Syrian and Iraqi branches of it), And the Pan Arab Islamic movements who speak of the one Arab Islamic Nation. Often you see a sort of mix of Islamism, Nationalism and some sort of Socialism. Many Islamic movements or people are linked or member of Dutch parties or international political movements. Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan are seen as problems of the Islamic nation. Next to that Chechenia and India (Kasmir) are mentioned as part of the Islamic cause too.
Pieter
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Bob S
European
Rainbow Bear
Posts: 2,052
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Post by Bob S on Mar 18, 2008 8:59:38 GMT -7
Bob S Thanks for the Ahmed the Dead film. Funny for me. He is right the virgins are specified as female. Jim ;D ;D Thats "angry Virginians" Jim. ;D ;D
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Post by jimpres on Mar 18, 2008 9:35:04 GMT -7
Bob S,
Yes the ones that were raped etc on earth by the hands of Ahmed and his kind
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Post by hollister on Mar 19, 2008 7:06:05 GMT -7
Pieter, Thanks for the information! It is interesting. As far as the strain of Nationalism you pointed out - is this coming from a group? or from an economic class? I'll try to explain what I mean - are ALL Turks involved in nationalistic movements or are only middle class Turks involved in such movements?
I guess what I am asking is - does economics and the access to the "goodies" lessen the urge towards Nationalism or does it transcend economics? Does that make it a class struggle? The old have and have nots dichotomy?
Do these people come to the Netherlands for better economic opportunities or to spread their brand of Nationalism?
I realize that I am taking a VERY complicated issue and reducing it very simplistic terms (perhaps to the point if idiocy - but I am trying to see where the boundaries of the discussion are - and check my US based assumptions at the door - if that makes sense.)
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Post by pieter on Mar 19, 2008 8:05:08 GMT -7
As far as the strain of Nationalism you pointed out - is this coming from a group? or from an economic class? I'll try to explain what I mean - are ALL Turks involved in nationalistic movements or are only middle class Turks involved in such movements? Holly, You have differant brands of Turkish nationalisms, first you have the fairly Moderate Secular state version based on the philosophy of the Turkish Pilsudski and "great reformer" Atatürk, who wanted to make a Modern European country of Turkey in the 20-ies of the 20th century, the Turkish (state) patriotism, which could be compared to the American and Polish Patriotism or Nationalism. Next to that you have the far right extreme-nationalism or Pan-Turkism of the far right MHP party which is linked to the fascist movement The Grey Wolves. They are active in the Netherlands, have their own Mosques, are anti-European, and have great Ottoman views. They believe that all Turkish speaking people must unite, so the Turks themselves, and all Turkish immigrant communities of European countries, the Turkmens, the Uzbeks, Azebajajani's, the Kazachs and etc. Turks are a sort of Übermenschen in their views, and they long for the lost Ottoman empire. Next to this there are a whole variety of extreme-left and islamist movements active in the Netherlands also, like Dev Sol, the Fighting Communist Party of Turky, the Marxist-Kurd Nationalist Turkish-Kurd workers party PKK - which has the Kurd Nationalism which clashes with the Turkish nationalism-. The Turkish-Kurd troubles exist in the Netherlands and Germany, but on a lower level, because the pragmatic Dutch-Turks and Kurds and German-Turks and Kurds live in a Dutch and German reality. Holly a lot of migrant Muslims in our European countries are working class or Middle class, who are integrated. Only a minority cause problems. Personally I do not feel threatened by Muslims in my country. Only by a radical Islamist minority. The Turkish nationalism can be irritant, but the Islamism of Maroccans is more dangerous. The threat comes from North-Africans, Arabs and some Africans. Most Turks are to Western to be a real threat. Pieter
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Post by hollister on Mar 19, 2008 10:58:03 GMT -7
Pieter, To make sure I am understanding what you are saying..... I don't think I was clear in my question/statements, to whit, ...When I said "are ALL Turks involved in nationalistic movements or are only middle class Turks involved in such movements" I was only using that as an example - not asking only about the Turks alone. You had mentioned several different groups and I was looking for some type of generality about all the groups. I agree with you that most Turks are too Western to be a real threat (any why I used them as a spring board for discussion).
I am interested in your comment about the Northern African Arabs and the Maroccans - care to elaborate a bit?
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