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Post by leslie on Jan 27, 2008 3:54:38 GMT -7
A positive side of the subject; From the home page of AOL 27 January 08
"""City hosts day to mark Holocaust Last Updated: Sunday, 27 January 2008, 08:48 GMT - Search: Holocaust memorial Liverpool
Liverpool is hosting the national commemoration to mark Holocaust Memorial Day.
More than 1,600 people including survivors of the Holocaust and more recent genocides will attend a service at the city's Philharmonic Hall.
The event in the European Capital of Culture falls on the anniversary of the 1945 liberation of the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp.
Among those attending will be the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, the Chief Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks and the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Hazel Blears.
More News Johnson accused in new donation row Exam chiefs warn on harder GCSEs Royal in Tory fundraiser row Two die in helicopter crash Ashdown withdraws UN envoy bid
Related Links Holocaust Memorial Day Trust
Have Your Say Join the UK news debate on our message boards Former BBC war correspondent and independent MP Martin Bell and Liverpudlian actor Jason Isaacs, who plays Lucius Malfoy in the Harry Potter films, will also be present.
The programme will include personal testimony from survivors and relatives, poetry, music and speeches.
More than 2,000 schools across the UK are expected to hold events to mark the day.
Christine Shaw, of the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust said: "On Holocaust Memorial Day, we reflect on the lessons society can learn from the Holocaust and other genocides in an effort to tackle the intolerance and prejudice that still exists in the UK today.
"There has been huge interest from all over the UK and it is wonderful to see the commitment of so many sections of society in marking the day."
Martin Bell added: "Through my work as a war correspondent for the BBC, I have seen the extreme results that discrimination and prejudice can have when taken to their ultimate conclusion."
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Post by holaola on Jan 27, 2008 6:37:41 GMT -7
The ghost of anti-Semitism: none of this will ever be understood, and therefore eliminated, unless we go to the origins of the problem and start comprehending why certain things take place and certain ideas take root - because nothing happens just by itself. All events are consequential. Always.
All (not just some) influencing factors must be taken into account. For example: is it possible that the systematic annihilation of the Polish intelligentsia, or their deportation (unique, in its relentlessness, to Poland), could be without very long-term consequences? No. Is it possible that the Polish genetic pool has been not been severely pauperised by all these events? No. Is a strong presence of the intelligentsia necessary for a nation? Yes. Will a lowering of ethical standards occur if this intelligentsia is eliminated? Probably. There was a tremendous brutalisation of Poland which came to a peak with WWII and its very long aftermath! And where the physical killing stopped, the psychological killing started – beginning with lying and spying and ending with immense supplies of vodka (all too often the only comestible commodity easily available in every Soviet regime) and the State extolling those truly talent-less and ignorant in a bid for some sort of Utopian “equality”.
However, this brutalisation of Poland didn’t start in 1939. It started centuries ago. Perhaps the time has come to dig up all these causes and effects, look them dispassionately in the face, and just for once, to be fair – to all sides concerned.
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Post by livia on Jan 27, 2008 12:05:16 GMT -7
Ryszard Bugaj: (Jan T.)"Gross in „Strach” is making the farthest reaching generalizations. On the bench of dishonour he is placing not just the Polish anti-Semites but simply Poland. I am feeling personally offended by Gross. Through the entire life how I was able, I opposed the anti-Semitism. And this doesn't concern just me, in Poland there are many people which did the same." www.rp.pl/artykul/85953.htmlRyszard Bugaj is well known intellectualist in Poland. A scientist working in Polish Academy of Sciences. Member of opposition before 1989. A politician which after 1989-1992 period tried to form a social-democratic party independent from post-communist. pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryszard_Bugaj
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Post by livia on Jan 27, 2008 12:21:13 GMT -7
I hope you are not saying that being a member of intelligentsia is embeded in the DNA.
Yes it is. And thank God from what was left after the war the full blown modern intelligentsia layer was rebuilt. And succesfully led Poles to the united front together with the workers and peasants. And this union made Poland free.
The after war banditism did not involve the whole nation and I don't think it was related with Germans and Russians killing intelligentsia specifically.
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Post by valpomike on Jan 27, 2008 12:57:51 GMT -7
To all,
LONG LIVE POLAND AND ALL HER GREAT PEOPLE.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by freetobe on Jan 27, 2008 21:33:04 GMT -7
Ola, Let me add my voice to Livia's on the intelligentsia/DNA connection. Please define for me "intelligentsia" Were not these people more economically advantaged then the peasant classes?And more able to enjoy the benefits of education and exposure to the arts and sciences? Did they have children or siblings who could not or did not want to follow the intelligentsia path? Do you believe that a member of the peasant class given the same opportunities as the intelligentsia, could not achieve the same level of thought and awareness? I mean no disrespect,I am just perplexed by your intelligentsia comment.
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Post by Jaga on Jan 27, 2008 22:07:52 GMT -7
Liwia,
thanks for link with interesting article from holaola: The ghost of anti-Semitism: none of this will ever be understood, and therefore eliminated, unless we go to the origins of the problem and start comprehending why certain things take place and certain ideas take root - because nothing happens just by itself. All events are consequential. Always.+++++++++++++++++++++
For our American friends. Think about a following scenario - there is a huge Hispanic population in the US, some of them assimilate to American culture, the majority speaks Spanish, have their own customs. The common opinion is that THEY SHOULD ASSIMILATE TO AMERICAN CULTURE AND EVENTUALLY LEARN ENGLISH.
It is always and everywhere the case that if you have a foreign body, foreign immigrant which do not assimilate - they are seen as something foreign and vice versa. They do not feel strong bonds with the country they live.
Now, go back to Jewish population in Poland. Some of them assimilated, some did not. In small towns there were Jewish schools for boys before the war everywhere where Jewish people lived. Many Jews did know Polish as a second language, some did not even know Polish. There are advantages and disadvantages of this status of course - the advantage is that Jewish people DID NOT LOST THEIR CULTURAL IDENTITY. How many of them felt more Polish than Jewish? I do not know. How many felt more Jewish than Polish - I do not know, but the truth is that some Jewish were quite happy to see Soviet army invading Poland. Some probably did not. How many Jews in the uniforms of Soviet army killed Poles? We can check some sources probably. There were some, just like there were some Poles who helped German killing Jews.
This aspect is never ever seen at all because IT IS POLITICALLY INCORRECT. Some jewish rabbi wanted even to form a Jewish province/state in the region of Wilnius after world war I. So, there is no wonder that Jews were seen with suspicion as the foreign element. Of course many Jews were assimilated, but many did not.
This does not explain the killing of anybody by anybody, it just explains that the Polish population and Jewish population were two SEPARATE IDENTITIES and seeing Poles just as the bad guys always and Jews only as the innocent victims of the Poles is also wrong.
For instance the killings of Jews in Ukraine during Chmielnicki uprising is seen only through the prismat of anty-semitism. The truth is that POLES and JEWS were killed by UKRAINIAN peasants because they were seen as the representatives of the rich class (Poles - the nobles and Jews - tax collectors) which was abusing the Ukrainian farmers.
Whenever there is a certain division into different majority/minority structure - there will be the conflicts.
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Post by freetobe on Jan 27, 2008 22:51:33 GMT -7
Jaga, I believe anti-semitism has existed from the beginning of time. The reasons for this unique bias that doesn't seem to ever go away will never truly be fully understood because as you say, "it is politically incorrect" From my pov that is the issue, not who killed who and why. So why not explore the issue of political correctness as a topic. There have to be instances where political correctness played a part in hotbed issues(aside from anti-semitism) in Poland.
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Post by Jaga on Jan 27, 2008 23:08:15 GMT -7
Jaga, I believe anti-semitism has existed from the beginning of time. . No, there is nothing like permanent anti-semitism, anti-catholicism, anti-polonism. Everything depends on the circumstances. If Poles would be spread around the world without their own country and they would stick to their language and find smart ways to survive and trades to earn money - there would be also a very strong anti-polonism. What about the way how Jews treat the Palestinians? Why this is not called "anti-palestinism"? Maybe because somebody does not want to call it this way... +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Here are some interesting comments from amazon about Gross book: www.amazon.com/Fear-Anti-Semitism-Auschwitz-Historical-Interpretation/dp/0691128782/polishculture-20What was the situation with the Jews in the lands occupied by the Soviets and what was their attitude to the occupiers? Gross writes (Revolution from Abroad, p. 32): "What Poles and Ukrainians report, often with biting irony, the Jews do not deny: 'Jews greeted the Soviet army with joy. The youth was spending days and evenings with the soldiers. . . Jews received incoming Russians enthusiastically, they [the Russians] also trusted them [the Jews].'" Again, Gross writes (Revolution from Abroad, p. 34, quoting Celina Koninska): "It is hard to find words to describe the feeling -- this waiting and this happiness. We wondered how to express ourselves -- to throw flowers? To sing? To organize a demonstration? How to show our great joy? I think the Jews awaiting the Messiah will feel, when he finally comes, the way we felt. " These warm receptions by Jews for the Soviets in eastern Poland were in September of 1939, when there were no Germans in sight. The Jews were rejoicing over the occupation of eastern Poland by the Russians. To Polish Catholics, this was simply treason, analogous to the occasional warm receptions in western Poland of the Germans by some Volksdeutsche. Now, it is undeniable that in the German-occupied portion of Poland where the situation of the Jews was worse than that of the Catholics, many Polish families hid Jews from the Nazi occupiers. It is a matter of record that Poles are listed at Yad Vashem numerically first amongst the righteous Gentiles for risking their lives and those of their families for sheltering Jews from the Nazis. So, it is fair to ask the question, "When did Jews use their favored position in Soviet occupied eastern Poland to shelter Polish Catholics from the NKVD?" This reviewer regrets to say that he cannot find any instances of such assistance. Up to the day (June 22, 1941) when Hitler broke his deal with Stalin and invaded Soviet-occupied Poland, Gross (Revolution from Abroad p. 194) estimates that 1.25 million people were transported into the Soviet Union from eastern Poland. The ghastly NKVD prisons in Poland were generally used as holding cells for Poles awaiting execution or prison train space for transportation to the gulags. When the Germans attacked the Soviets on June 22, 1941, the NKVD killed or moved to the east 150,000 prisoners from these holding cells. In the Brygidki prison in Lwów, on June 22, 1941, the NKVD killed almost all of the 13,000 inmates. (Revolution from Abroad, p. 179). This was recorded by Gross as a "massacre" rather than a pogrom.
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Post by holaola on Jan 28, 2008 3:58:49 GMT -7
All people with a yearning for and determination to pursue knowledge, and possessed of some initiative are members of the intelligentsia. It is a classless “situation” which I intend in the widest sense of the word. These are the people to whom one turns in moments of strife for they have, or are thought to have, certain leadership qualities - irrespective of whether they are peasants or princes. And because of these qualities they are the first people to be hunted down by the enemy – why? Because it is feared they might have the ability to inspire resistance. These are also the people who are capable of educating, pointing to larger horizons, inducing hope, higher thoughts etc. all of which are a form of resistance, too.
Intelligentsia is not synonymous with aristocracy, by the way – had it been, Poland would have been a much stronger country.
And yes I do believe certain qualities may be hereditary - including a craving for knowledge, leadership, painting, singing etc. and that these qualities pop up all over the place in peasants, labourers, office workers and in princes, alike. Genes surely, cannot be just about blue eyes, brown hair and big feet. Whether these qualities are always given the possibility to arrive at their full potential is a problem but they will manifest themselves, one way or another.
It is true that Poland has done remarkably well but who knows how much better it would have done if all these catastrophes hadn’t occurred.
As for the killings in the aftermath of the war, they are linked to a strange phenomenon which wasn’t exclusive to Poland – such killings and reprisals for real and imagined faults were occurring all over Europe. One always imagines that having just lived through hell, all those concerned would want to quickly escape into peace, be kind, loving and tolerant but the opposite appears to be true: brutality breeds brutality. It is the same mechanism whereby children who were beaten surprisingly often become beating parents.
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Post by holaola on Jan 28, 2008 4:04:41 GMT -7
Jaga, I believe anti-semitism has existed from the beginning of time. . No, there is nothing like permanent anti-semitism, anti-catholicism, anti-polonism. Everything depends on the circumstances. Yes - I totally agree. Everything does depend on circumstances, and it is only full and dispassionate comprehension that can alter attitudes.
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Post by justjohn on Jan 28, 2008 4:44:16 GMT -7
The Other Side of the CoinDr. Robert Faurisson Arrested, Home Searched 1-27-8 Retired university professor Robert Faurisson lives in the central French town of Vichy. At 9 AM on January 24 he answered a summons to appear at the local police station. No sooner had he arrived there than he was notified by three senior officers, sent from Paris the day before, that he was now in their custody for questioning and that a search of his house would also be carried out. In December 2006 then French President Jacques Chirac had publicly called for an investigation into Faurisson's participation in the conference in Tehran on the Holocaust (December 11th and 12th of that year). That conference was open to all, including revisionists. A British subject before being a French citizen, it was in English that the Professor, a specialist of "the appraisal of texts and documents (literature, history, media)", briefly spelled out the results of his research on "the Holocaust". His paper bore the title "The Victories of Revisionism". In it he didn't hide his belief that the more revisionism gained ground, particularly on the Internet, the more revisionists would face repression, first in the media, then at the hands of the police and the law courts. The Minister of Justice then put a Paris prosecutor in charge of the investigation demanded by one who, dubbed "Superliar" by French television, was now anxious to come to the aid of an imperilled "Superlie". On April 16, 2007 police lieutenant Séverine Besse and a colleague of hers were sent to Vichy to question the professor. But to each of their queries he was to reply stubbornly: "No answer", and he had them put down the following statement in their official record: "I refuse to collaborate with the French police and justice system in the repression of historical revisionism". Nine months later, on January 24, 2008, the thought police re-offended. In the meantime an examining magistrate, Marc Sommerer, was assigned to the case. And he sent the same Séverine Besse to Vichy, accompanied this time by two other officers of the Police Judiciaire (OPJ). She made it known to the professor that he was henceforth in custody for questioning and that after a session with them in a room in the station his house would be searched. There then followed a bodily search, confiscation of wallet and change purse, pen, watch andS belt (whereas the chances are nil of a man of nearly 79 hanging himself in a police station office in the presence of three officers). In fact, it was all probably just his interrogators' way of trying to intimidate a notorious recalcitrant, whose wife, as the police are aware, is for serious medical reasons in need of his constant presence. However, with the stubbornness of a Scottish mother's son, R. Faurisson persisted in replying "No answer" to every question put. He reiterated his refusal to collaborate with the police and the justice system against revisionism. Then he was told that he was the target not of one but of three penal actions that had led to the issuing of as many warrants by examining magistrate Sommerer. The first two cited the professor directly for his participation in the Tehran conference; whilst one of these, originating both from the prosecution service and from a slew of pious organisations, attacked him for "disputing crimes against humanity" (under the Fabius-Gayssot law of 1990), the other, from the LICRA (Ligue internationale contre le racisme et l'antisémitisme), charged him with "defamation". The third action, tortuously worded, was brought "against persons unknown" by the daily Libération for the "pirating" of one of its pieces in the review Dubitando where, the police officers said, twenty of the professor's articles had appeared. Faurisson was then taken to his house. The three "OPJ's" and a Vichy policewoman proceeded with the search. They drew a blank. They discovered neither the coveted computer nor, in a mountain of documents, the papers sought. At the end, towards 3 PM, the professor, making careful note of the three officers' names, affirmed to them, as he'd had occasion to do before judges in court: "It may turn out that your existence will be noted in history only insofar as I'll have mentioned your names and according to how I'll have mentioned you". The day after this six-hour arrest for interrogation and search, that is, the 25th of January, the professor would celebrate his 79th birthday, not without a thought for those revisionist friends of his who were already in prison or who risked finding themselves there before long. He'd have a special thought for the heroic Vincent Reynouard, today a father of seven: ten years ago this maths teacher, adored by his pupils, was kicked out of the state school system in France for the crime of revisionism; at present his living conditions are more precarious than ever but he nonetheless keeps on doing copious research and producing revisionist material regularly; he stands up in person to the courts where the judges, noting his resolve, deny him the right to make a defence grounded in the substance of the case as he sees it, and sentence him with increasing severity; prison awaits him. Faurisson would also be thinking of his fellow revisionists imprisoned in either Austria or Germany, for example Ernst Zündel, Germar Rudolf, Wolfgang Fröhlich, Gerd Honsik and indeed Silvia Stolz, "the German Joan of Arc". Over the past nearly sixty years, long has grown the list of revisionists who have paid with their tranquillity, their health, their freedom and, sometimes, their lives for an attachment to the freedom of thought, the freedom of research (which, in history, should not see itself assigned any limits) and, finally, the freedom of expression.
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Post by livia on Jan 28, 2008 5:10:38 GMT -7
The children of intelligentsia more often become intelligentsia members themselves because of the environment they grew in. Not because of the genes and memes they have got. Also, intelligentsia is more often seen as a social class than otherwise. But even being a university professor is not equal to being intelligentsia member. Which requires certain attitude Holaola have perfectly described. So a peasant and a prince may become a member of intelligentsia if they have certain level of education (and NOT neccesserily a university degree) and use their mind in service of the society.
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Post by holaola on Jan 28, 2008 6:49:47 GMT -7
just john, Although I cannot understand what exactly the revisionists are trying to revise seeing how systematic the Germans were with their documentation of their annihilation of people, this idea of not being able to take a closer look at certain matters from a different perspective, let alone speak about them, is far too close to Orwell's "1984" for comfort. So what are people afraid of? That some little unknown truth will come to light?
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Post by valpomike on Jan 28, 2008 8:09:28 GMT -7
holaola,
Yes, they are afraid that the truth will come to light. They just want this past, and let go.
Michael Dabrowski
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