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Post by livia on Feb 13, 2008 10:14:25 GMT -7
But I also say that neither should the education of the Polish people be entrusted entirely to the Polish intelligentsia spokesmen alone! Why? Because the Polish Communist era intelligentsia, Piotr Gontarczyk included - with all their presumed scholarliness and moral authority - had 63 years to educate the Poles about the horror and implications of the pogrom of Kielce ... and did not! I gladly agreed to agree that we don't agree. Especially that you seem very emotional about the subject. But now you have presented argument aimed at the person not the ideas. And arguments aimed at the group, you seem to dislike. I still think that Piotr Gontarczyk made (or summed up) true observations. Cold, unemotional observations by many outstading historians which crushed Jan T. Gross's book as a source of historical knowledge. None of these historians deny the fact of a killings. Piotr Gontarczyk might be even Joseph Stalin himself. Maybe he is, I didn't check. I don't care very much who is talking I care a lot what one is saying.
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Post by justjohn on Feb 13, 2008 10:34:57 GMT -7
I gladly agreed to agree that we don't agree.
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nathanael
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Post by nathanael on Feb 13, 2008 13:47:23 GMT -7
I am not going to argue with Livia nor anyone else. First of all, her English is questionable. I am unable to follow exactly what she is trying to say, except guessing. My language is very precise (I speak four languages with perfect fluency). Any true Pole should be emotional about a genocide that has taken place in Kielce. If he or she is not, I have a problem with them. I have not said that the Communist-educated intelligentsia denies that event. What I said, is that they consistently attempt to drown the moral outrage that is due in an never ending sea of historical facts which they say "only they know"! I despise that! I despise people who strike at the messenger to obfuscate the message! That's been the Communist way, and is still prevalent in Poland! Had Livia read my post carefuly, she would have noticed that it was not about Gontarczyk! I don't know who he is! If I mentioned him, it was because I was analyzing his article which fails to condemn the pogrom of Kielce while denouncing and debasing the person who did! I despise that! I am convinced, and I stand by my conviction, that the great majority of today's academicians in Poland is attempting to lessen the moral responsibility of Poland by claiming that "they have done better research, for many more years, than any person from outside ever will." This former Communist tactic is both mean and cowardly! It is still the prevalent way in Poland. The former apparatchiks used to ask "for more research, ad infinitum and ad nauseam, and always kept striking down "foreign research," as invalid! I know the Communist way, I have been there! A person of integrity, and a decent Catholic, having the research that has been made public already, needs no more research to condemn what happened in Kielce! Did you hear me, Polish academicians and Church? Did you hear me, Livia?
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Post by livia on Feb 14, 2008 1:19:27 GMT -7
I am not going to argue with Livia nor anyone else. First of all, her English is questionable. I am unable to follow exactly what she is trying to say, except guessing. My language is very precise (I speak four languages with perfect fluency). Any true Pole should be emotional about a genocide that has taken place in Kielce. If he or she is not, I have a problem with them. WOW! Yes, let's not argue. I mean you better not argue with me. You might get infected and part of your true Polishness would fade away. And what would you do then? You'd be someone as miserable as I am - untrue Pole with bad English!
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nathanael
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Post by nathanael on Feb 14, 2008 4:27:08 GMT -7
To Livia: back off my person! Argumentums ad hominem do not belong in a civilized discussion. I hope that the moderators of Polish Culture Forum take notice, or else I will remove myself from further forum participation. As for the "Fear" book, I will add this: When Staff Sergeant Tyrone Luther Hadnott allegedly raped a 14-year old Japanese girl recently on the island of Okinawa, a Japanese assemby member Chosei Taira remarked: "The U.S. Ambassador Thomas Schieffer has not shown enough anger when he expressed regret over the incident." This is exactly what I hold against the Polish post-Communist "intelligentsia": THEY HAVE NOT SHOWN ENOUGH ANGER AGAINST THOSE WHO RAPED THE HUMAN RIGHTS OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY BY THEIR ABHORRENT GENOCIDAL CRIME IN KIELCE! It's time that Poland, and the U.S., learn something from the ancient Japanese culture!
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Post by livia on Feb 14, 2008 6:18:00 GMT -7
To Livia: back off my person! Argumentums ad hominem do not belong in a civilized discussion. That is what I said to you when you attacked the author of the article you didn't like - Piotr Gontarczyk - for his alleged communist past, not for his ideas. Now I can say more - because I have checked it. Piotr Gontarczyk was born in 1970. Your arguments, which I tried hard to pick from the waterfall of emotions you present, do not hold water.
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Post by justjohn on Feb 14, 2008 7:51:24 GMT -7
To Livia: back off my person! Argumentums ad hominem do not belong in a civilized discussion. I hope that the moderators of Polish Culture Forum take notice, or else I will remove myself from further forum participation in the future. As for the "Fear" book, I will add this: When Staff Sergeant Tyrone Luther Hadnott allegedly raped a 14-year old Japanese girl recently on the island of Okinawa, a Japanese assemby member Chosei Taira remarked: "The U.S. Ambassador Thomas Schieffer has not shown enough anger when he expressed regret over the incident." This is exactly what I hold against the Polish post-Communist "intelligentsia": THEY HAVE NOT SHOWN ENOUGH ANGER AGAINST THOSE WHO RAPED THE HUMAN RIGHTS OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY BY THEIR ABHORRENT GENOCIDAL CRIME IN KIELCE! It's time that Poland, and the U.S., learn something from the ancient Japanese culture! Livia, Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth... AMEN..!!Someone else hasn't learned this lesson yet.
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nathanael
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Post by nathanael on Feb 15, 2008 3:57:22 GMT -7
There are some inconsistencies that have been said on this forum recently which need correction. First of all, I have not "attacked Gontarczyk." I said very clearly that my quarrel is with the former Communist "intelligentia" professors who educated him, and consequently my quarrel is with the fact that he failed to show remorse for the pogrom of Kielce in his article. This, and this alone, is what I criticized! Having de-emphasized the most important historical fact, the need for remorse in face of a genocide, Mr. Gontarczyk simply lost my credibility! His "facts" were given him by others! We do not know how accurate these facts are since they all come from Communist files. The "others," without doubt, are the present elites, in all political and religious organizations, who fear the news about Kielce genocide coming to light due to the potential prospect of compensation! This is why they oppose Gross! And this is why they use people like Gontarczyk, to masquerade the simple fact of Kielce masacre under a heavy blanket of "indisputable historical research." I am not in favor for massive compensation for properties lost. War is war, and lost is lost. Besides, we didn't start that war. But I firmly believe that apology and some compensation for atrocities like the Kielce genocide is a moral must! Neither am I defending the quality of Gross's historical research. But I am noting that he alone, not Gontarczyk, not Chodakiewicz, not Nowak, not the post-Communist "intelligentsia (not true intelligentsia by my standard), had the moral acumen and courage to ask questions which many Polish "historians" are trying to drown in oblivion! There is history, and history.One history is the greatest prostitute of all times. The other history is the realm of martyrs and heroes. The first history always goes after the highest and most powerful bidder. The other history is written by men of integrity and courage, not pimps! We must not expect those who have vested interest in denying the facts, to feed us the right historical research! My hope is that Poland will raise to its greatness, and remain on the side of truth!
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Post by livia on Feb 17, 2008 3:48:10 GMT -7
he failed to show remorse for the pogrom of Kielce in his article. This, and this alone, is what I criticized! Having de-emphasized the most important historical fact, the need for remorse in face of a genocide, Mr. Gontarczyk simply lost my credibility! 1. You're wrongly investing your emotions again. Piotr Gontarczyk in his work as a historian shouldn't involve emotions. His job is to do the scientific work well. Not to show remorse. And I do hope that in your emotional attitude you don't suspect this scientist of being non-human. U hope you don't suspect he's not feeling regret for any innocent human being killed. Including those in Kielce. 2. The article by Piotr Gontarczyk was a critical review of the book by Jan T. Gross. It was not an essay on pogrom in Kielce. So your argument that he de-emphasized the historical fact is not on target.
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Post by holaola on Feb 17, 2008 11:57:07 GMT -7
The only way to resolve all the Jedwabne and Kielce issues would be for the Polish Government to open a formal, public inquiry into the matter. Bring everything into the public forum - who, what, why, where and when - otherwise this will be a never ending story.
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nathanael
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Post by nathanael on Feb 18, 2008 6:27:55 GMT -7
The only way to resolve all the Jedwabne and Kielce issues would be for the Polish Government to open a formal, public inquiry into the matter. Bring everything into the public forum - who, what, why, where and when - otherwise this will be a never ending story. I couldn't have said it better. As for Livia's idea that Poland can hide indefinitely behind "dispassionate historical reviews," it's ludicrous! I do not care whether those historians "feel something" in secret. Someone will have to speak about morality, publicly!
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Post by pgontarczyk on Mar 12, 2008 10:50:11 GMT -7
Dear Livia, I love "I speak four languages with perfect fluency" all the time will be difficult
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Post by pgontarczyk on Mar 12, 2008 10:55:33 GMT -7
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