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Post by Jaga on Jan 30, 2008 5:49:45 GMT -7
This is what is making news today in the world news outlets, a bit related to what we talk about: Australia to Apologize to Aborigines CANBERRA, Australia (AP) — Australia will issue its first formal apology to the country's indigenous people next month, a senior minister said Wednesday, a milestone that could ease tensions with a minority once subjected to policies including the removal of mixed-blood children from families on the premise that their race was doomed. The Feb. 13 apology to the so-called "stolen generation" of Aborigines will be the first item of business for the new Parliament, Indigenous Affairs Minister Jenny Macklin said. Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, whose Labor Party won November elections, had promised to push for an apology, which has been debated in Australia for years. "The apology will be made on behalf of the Australian government and does not attribute guilt to the current generation of Australian people," Macklin said in a statement. ... ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h2Esw7ttubEjcCabNviVmCeevJ5QD8UG1FAO0
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Post by bescheid on Jan 30, 2008 7:48:10 GMT -7
To tell the truth I find this selective memory really embarrassing. Would the Germans won there would be no Poles!!! Yes - I found that very striking too! But even more striking was this comment from the cited article: “Where in the world has one ever seen a nation that erects memorials to immortalize its own shame?” asked Avi Primor, the former Israeli ambassador to Germany, at an event in Erfurt on Friday commemorating the Holocaust and the liberation of Auschwitz. “Only the Germans had the bravery and the humility.”"Only the Germans had the bravery and the humility (to erect monuments)" What exactly is intended here? I would have imagined that only the Germans had cause to erect them - apart from the USSR, of course. I have a feeling that history is slowly (or perhaps not too slowly) being massaged into a very different shape, here, and that the real culprits are being given a gradual veneer of saintliness. I would only suppose for a non-German, this perhaps is confusing as contradictory of common sense. The purpose of this post is not for support or for any sake of argument, but only as information. We have here an opportunity. In as much for your benefit, but also as for my self. For until the formation of this Polish forum, as a person of my self, the rare opportunity for exchange with Polish people. For your self, it is hopefully as an opportunity, to learn the prospective from the other side of your boarder to the West. I am only one voice, and do not have the right to speak for other German people of today. The views and opinions of my self constitute that only, not as common opinion. Foras a people, we may appear strange in some respects, but just common people, and not special. And so may it be, may I offer of the following explanatory decription as follows. There is a primary reason for the erection of these monuments. They are not meant or taken as a sign of guilt or apologies to the Israeli people or the war. For we have progressed far beyond. The monuments are as of a road direction sign, for national direction. It is a roadway closed sign for never to travel that roadway again. For this is the meaning of the monuments. Charles
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Post by holaola on Jan 30, 2008 8:37:23 GMT -7
bescheid, I have absolutely no quarrel with the Germans erecting monuments wherever and whenever they choose, and think that it is very honourable that you should do so in this particular cause. My curiosity is about what the former Israeli ambassador said :"Only the Germans had the bravery and the humility....etc". You must have noticed that in the past years there has been a tendency to look away from the huge sins of the Germans and towards the comparatively small sins of the Poles during the war, and the tendency to repeatedly talk about Polish concentration camps when referring to German Concentration camps in Auschwitz, etc and then again to repeatedly say "Oops! Sorry" when there is an outcry from the Polish people about these errors, only to repeatedly make the same errors again some weeks after! That is what I mean about people massaging history, and making it change shape. There is a rather old theory that if people repeat a lie sufficiently often, it will become the truth. I would not like some future generations to think that it was my nation which wore the jackboots and carried the whips and for some unknown reason decided to exterminate Jewish Europeans, when in fact it was yours! However, you do say that your monuments are not intended as either a sign of guilt or apology - just as a warning for yourselves not to go down that particular road again. That causes me to wonder: seeing your group of monuments refer to Jewish, Gay and Gypsy victims, persecution of these being a road not to follow, is there some reason why no monument to the Poles has been erected - are there intentions of revisiting that road, by any chance?
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Post by valpomike on Jan 30, 2008 11:31:15 GMT -7
VERY WELL SAID, BUT YOU WILL NOT GET A ANSWER !!!!!
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Post by holaola on Jan 30, 2008 12:05:41 GMT -7
Whether I get an answer depends on whether bescheid has a sense of humour - or not. We shall see.
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Post by bescheid on Jan 30, 2008 12:36:31 GMT -7
Whether I get an answer depends on whether bescheid has a sense of humour - or not. We shall see. Of course I will answer, for why of not? And of course do I possess a sense of humour contrary to propaganda that we do not. You have asked of a question of that I have no answer of even I am employed by so. What I would so provide though is: with the change over of your government, there lays not the constant irritations and confrontations so prominent with the twins. For you are very correct and rightly so. There has not been of recognition of Poland and the use of your land for the war time activities. And you are so very correct, there has been not the monuments of memory of those years in respect to Poland. There needs be some, this is for sure. A situation of that I am not sure of, or for that matter for what reason. But the Israeli people {Jews} are even now, very much close with us. For the observable situations are that of more immigration into Germany from Israel. A more or less unimaginable situation of contrast, if one were to look back over shoulder to long past events of war time. What I have heard in conversations over the coffee pot talk, is that they {Israelis}feel safer in our country then of theirs. Some portions of what I have heard is very true in regards to safety. The areas of Jewisch neighbour hoods and in-around the synagogues, are in-deed very safe. For we have not just local Police, but of Federal observation patrols in these areas. But, to return to your question of recognition to Poland of the war time atrocities committed upon your country. I have not an answer, for I do not know. I am just a person as of your self. Charles
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Mary
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Post by Mary on Jan 31, 2008 11:52:41 GMT -7
News report today: IN VERY BAD TASTE to say the least! Here it is and the link for it at the bottom........ Float depicting Hitler, dead Jews banned Judge orders removal of mannequins, bars dancers dressed as Nazi leader The Associated Press updated 12:40 p.m. ET, Thurs., Jan. 31, 2008 RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil - A judge issued an order Thursday prohibiting a Rio samba group from parading during carnival with a float depicting naked bodies of Holocaust victims. Judge Juliana Kalichszteim issued the injunction in response to a lawsuit by the Jewish Federation of Rio de Janeiro, which asked for the float be removed from this city's famed carnival parade next week, said Lara Voges, a spokeswoman for the judge. The judge said the float could be used in the parade, but that organizers of the Viradouro samba group must remove mannequins meant to represent dead bodies from the Holocaust. Viraduro spokeswoman Eliane Lorca said the group had not yet seen the judge's order and that the president of the group would only comment after they had seen the "supposed decision." The Jewish Federation praised the judge's decision. "It's inadmissible that they could have a parade float depicting dead Jews and a live Hitler on top of them," said federation spokesman Jose Roitberg. Reports in the media have said that Viradouro had planned to feature at least one dancer dressed as Adolf Hitler in the parade, using the theme: "It Gives you Goose Bumps." Viradouro would neither confirm nor deny those plans. According to Kalichszteim's decision, the group would face fines of $113,000 if it ignores her order by parading without removing the mannequins and $28,000 for each dancer dressed as Hitler. In her decision, Kalichszteim said carnival "should not be used as a tool for the cult of hate, any form of racism, beside the clear banalization of barbaric events." Viradouro is scheduled to present its carnival parade early Monday morning at Rio's Sambadrome stadium. Millions of Brazilians will watch the two-night parade on national television and in the Sambadrome parade grounds in Rio. www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22934625/
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Post by livia on Jan 31, 2008 15:42:07 GMT -7
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nathanael
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Post by nathanael on Feb 10, 2008 11:22:32 GMT -7
This is an independent report of what happened at Prof. Robert Nowak's conference on "Strach" held in Kraków at the basilica adjacent to the Ignatianum (M. Kopernika Street, 26). As far as I am concerned, it was a huge disappointment. I expected to hear as much as a single sentence about the book's main theme, the pogrom of Kielce, but heard none. The conference appears to have been arranged by television TRWAM and Radio Maryja as a protest against an earlier gathering at the Jagiellonian University for which the Rector of that institution was vilified. The speakers included Bp. Albin Ma³ysiak, Mr. Robert Nowak and several other professors. The audience consisted of a couple thousand people. Bp. Ma³ysiak spoke of saving five Jews during World War II and being granted the Jewish Medal for the Just of the World. Lots of applauses. But everything else was depressing. A colonel of AK proudly related his pre-war membership in M³odzie¿ Wszechpolska, and how the Boy Scouts "waged economic repression of the Jews in what they perceived to be the interest of Poland." I felt disgusted: for to me this was not a proud moment in the Polish Boy Scouts' history, given that the Hitlerjugend was doing the exact same thing at the very same time! But the old colonel didn't see it that way, for sure. He assured that "neither the M³odzie¿ Wszechpolska, nor the AK fought against or killed Jews." This was certainly true. Then Prof. Nowak took the podium denouncing Gross for "spreding lies and slanders against the Polish Nation." The book, he said, is filled with venom against us Poles. Gross falsifies history, accusing Prince Card. Sapieha of antisemitism. Nowak then went on to threaten the Jagiellonian University rector for letting Gross speak on campus, recently. He also condemned ZNAK Publishing House for publishing the book. He further accused Gross of "cannibalization of Poland and Church." However, the applause was loudest when another speaker stated that "we cannot enter multiculturalism without the people on board." This was a reference to the fierce European Union indoctrination currently under way. As far as "Fear', "Poland is under heavy attack by the Brooklin Jews." Others, though, thought that "all the world Jews were behind this controversy: "they want us to accept guilt." How do we defend ourselves? Three options were proposed: (1) to acknowledge guilt for the pogroms (B³oñski school and mine); (2) to remain silent and not respond to the attacks (Jesus before Pilate) - an option , I think, appropriate at particular times; and (3) to stand one's ground and fight back (Nowak). I agree with this option also, provided the fighting back is intelligent and truthful. But here comes the problem: fighting for accurate history dignifies Poland, but hiding the truth dooms her and degrades! At the conference's end, a professor of physics advised just that "let's stamp out all reference to the pogroms as anti-polonism." Furthermore, because of the cosmic gap between how the Americans and Poles perceive this question, Poland should somehow "go separate ways with the Jews, for we cannot do more than what we have done. He spoke of Poland at one time being the only nation on earth harboring four-fifths of all Jews of the world: Jews may have perished from the face of the earth, were it not for Poland. While I agreed about this Poland's glorious history with respect to the Jews, I dismissed the idea of "separation" as harking back to national socialism and the practices of M³odzie¿ Wszechpolska. Why was I deeply troubled by the conference? At the surface, the mottos, spelled out on two large standards above the altar, "Broñmy prawdy o martyrologii i heroiŸmie polaków; obroñmy pamiêc Kardyna³a Sapiehy przed oszczerstwami," and reinforced by Bp. Ma³ysiak's words "dbajmy, aby w naszej OjczyŸnie zawsze mówiono prawdê i nie fa³szowano jej dziejów" (let's take care that only truth is spoken about our fatherland and that history be not falsified), and also that "we must fight for truth, for there is no freedom without it" - by³y wszystkie piêkne same w sobie (were all beautiful in themselves). Ale, o zgrozo, dlaczego ani s³owa o temacie Prof. Grossa o pogromie w Kielcach?(but, alas, there was not a word about the book's theme, which was the pogrom of Kielce!). This for me shattered the credibility of the conference - the premeditate withholding of truth! I realize that this conference may not be the last word: the conference cattered to largely uneducated masses. But I regretted that these listeners of Radio Maryja were not being given the whole truth! They themselves seemed not to want to hear! They discounted any possible acknowledgement of guilt and remorse! They did not seem to feel any compunction for the Kielce killing of the demaciated survivors of Auschwitz, returning from hell! For a moment I felt ashamed of being in a house of God. I looked at the figures of Jesus and Mary, and wondered what they thought. Does Poland need people like me, ...or am I a "stooge for the Jews," which the conference speakers so vehemently warned against. I decided that I will speak my mind. How can Polish Catholics act so mercilessly toward this question? I understand under the stresses of 1945, but 60 years later, now? I knelt and left the basilica. The thousand or so Radio Maryja listeners were beginning to leave. They seldom, if ever knelt, acting like sect, not like Christians leaving a house of prayer! I do not blame them. I blame the organizers, whoever they were. Radio Maryja serves to guarantee ideological cohesion of the mases of believers in Poland, and I applaude this. But the danger of not giving the people the whole truth can prove deadly in our times!
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Feb 10, 2008 12:51:22 GMT -7
Yes, the ghost of antisemitism still haunts this country. I saw the posters on the church`s fence too, the title of the conference was very informative: The fight against the Church; Antipolonism, discussion based on Gross` Fear . I laughed a lot seeing it and I even took a photo to have a souvenir. I knew exactly what folly it was going to be. Your report proves I was right. I expected to hear as much as a single sentence about the book's main theme, the pogrom of Kielce, but heard none. It was natural. Really, were they so openly antisemitic??? That`s funny, I thought they would try to mask their attitude in some clever way. Germany had its Kristalnacht (burning and looting Jewish shops), then the same thing happened in Poland on a smaller scale. Hmm? There were many smaller organizations that got incorporated by AK. Some of them were radical right ones, they resented Jews and communists and there were cases of murders. hahahahaha really, it was done so foolishly??? Frankly, I expected those Antisemites to be smarter than that. Probably they took such an open stance because they realised what kind of audience they had, so they felt quite free. It is called a defence by means of an attack. All Poland or only such antisemitic morons? Defence lies in attack!!! hahahahaha I think so too. Shortly speaking, he proposed national censorship. Very interesting. It is greatly dispuitable statement. It has been invented to serve as an excuse for all crimes that Poles committed on Jews during and after WW2. Because you are a very decent person? Yes, let`s do it but without lies and rejecting the truth about Polish conflict with Jews. Typical magical words of the conman`s incantation which are supposed to prevent people from seeking the real truth. That was to be expected, judging by the title of the conference: The fight against the Church and Antipolonism in Gross` book. Unfortunately, many primitive ignoramuses accept such crap as the only truth. We talked about antisemitism of Radio Maryja long ago. Of course not, they consider themselves Radio Maryja pious believers, it is enough for them to listen to and depend on the Radio for all clues in life. There are more people in Poland who think like you. Maybe they are still afraid to speak out openly, but their time will come. But I can already read their articles in major magazines, so their opinions are articulated. Because they only think they are Catholics. Most Poles` faith is quite superficial - go to church, receive a priest at Christmas time etc etc. No deeper thought about really christian lifestyle. Deadly is too strong here. It isn`t deadly, it is just shame that those people can`t take the truth. That`s all. Thank you for this report.
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nathanael
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Post by nathanael on Feb 11, 2008 5:12:33 GMT -7
I meant "deadly" in the sense of "self-defeating" - with very unpleasant and long-lasting consequences for Poland, which may well have been avoided with sensible leadership.
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Post by livia on Feb 12, 2008 12:41:36 GMT -7
I have never been in the direct shooting distance of Radio Maryja so I am glad I could read the report. Nathanel, I share your discontent about reported villifying of UJ rector or condemning ZNAK publishing house. The author of such influential books as "The neighbours" or "Fear" should be provided a platform to present his book translated into Polish. And a possibility to discuss its content in the academic situation. I share your regret the Radio Maryja listeners are not given the whole truth, about the Jewish against non-Jewish frictions and they see only the bad deeds the Jewish Poles commited. They don't see Polish crimes and most of all they don't see many centuries of good neighbourhood. (Until the Swedes came in Deluge). They are kept in a strange, locked world built by their fears, prejudice, misunderstanding the reality around them, dissatisfaction with the liberal sytem and free economy in Poland. 'The Jewish' problem inside Radio Maryja community is only one the many problems. Their feelings are instrumentally fuelled by the radiostation's staff. Exactly to the degree you have written about - they themselves seem not to want to hear anything else. They are kept as a reserve of electorate for those parties which use peoples pesimism to win votes. This parties lost the last elections. I do condemn the Radio Maryja staff and the cold-blooded players behind them. I can't honestly condemn most of the listeners of Radio Maryja. And I find it impossible to disregard all the notions in the report of this strange "conference" just because it was Radio Maryja's. The Polish version of the antisemitic acts before the war shouldn't happen. I franklu think so and wish they never did. But before the war all the world was badly infected with antisemitism. In Poland it was never murderous like in neighbouring countries. Am I right? It is not an excuse for the beatings and numerus clausus. But I can't help thinking that the beating and numerus clausus are not the same as killings and sending the Jews for an exile out of Germany. With all the western world and its main pillars not giving a darn about this murderous antisemitism. At this same time Jews in Poland never even thought about leaving their homeland, even if some of them did not particularly love this homeland. And Poland before the war accepted the Jews running away from deadly persecution. We should never abstract from the historical background! Armia Krajowa consisted of normal people of Poland. Part of Poland's people was clearly anti-semitic. Just as part of Poland's people was anti-catholic. The antisemites hadn't a sign on their forehead reading 'antisemite' for their superiors to see and exclude them from the organization. Which I honestlu doubt they would do anyway - it was a wartime!!! And a small part of these antisemites inside AK were criminals persons, the kind which always flock in the miloitary I guess. But this doesn't change the fact that Armia Krajowa as an organization never fought or killed the Jewish Poles because of their religion or ethinicity. Many Jewish Poles were killed by AK because they were the traitors and served one of the occupants. Many non-Jewish Poles were executed out of this same reason. Just as many of the members of German administration or the police etc. etc. were liquidated by Armia Krajowa as well. I haven't read the 'Fear' from the beginning to the end. But I have read very large portions of it and practically everything about the book which was printed in Polish main and mainstream newspapers and periodicals. With equal interest I have read the obvious two sides of this public dispute. And as I said I am glad Jan T. Gross was provided a platform to present his views. I will not elaborate on my opinion about the book since it is in an obvious manner secondary (I am not a specialist). I will provide a link to an English language article which I found the most alike to what is my opinion. Although I don't like some of the author's generalizations. The title of this article provides an abstract of wht I think about the Fear by Jan T. Gross: Far From Truth. www.rp.pl/artykul/86847.html
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nathanael
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Post by nathanael on Feb 12, 2008 14:18:51 GMT -7
I have much problems with the article "Far from Truth," which means that I and Livia have to agree to disagree. We can cite all scholarly research of the world if we want, to prove that an individual writer is "less scholarly"! I have seen this in Poland first hand (the Church has recently moved to compromise my doctoral track because of my curiosity about the Sisters of Bethany and scores of other issues needing scholarly review, but which the students have been told never to discuss!). Let's however go back to our topic. The fact remains, and I will repeat it a thousand of times: the pogrom of Kielce was one of the most heinous crimes in mankind's history, unlike any other crime! You do not find a word about this in Chodakiewicz, Bugaj, Nowak, "Far from Truth,"and the entire Catholic Church's analysis so far! This single historical and moral fact is the truth that too many in Poland fear and want to hide, yet, I repeat, I consider every analysis that obscures, ignores, or hides under "other, more scholarly reviews" this single truth, as unscholarly and bordering on evil! As a Catholic, a scholar myself, and a true Pole, I will never hide this single truth under the mountain of "more scholarly, but other, truths." And I do not care how much more pseudo science I hear in Poland, from the academia and from the Church: until I hear this single truth stated clearly, that massacring 30 emaciated Jewish survivors from Auschwitz because they wanted back to their homes, after many years of unspeakable hell, was a crime against humanity that Poland and Church must never hide ...or call "publicystyka," or "agityka" (a Russian term used by Nowak), as most secular and Church scholars have been doing in Poland heretofore! I find it to be shameful in the highest degree! And I find it unworthy of Poland!
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Feb 12, 2008 14:32:01 GMT -7
I have much problems with the article "Far from Truth," which means that I and Livia have to agree to disagree. We can cite all scholarly research of the world if we want, to prove that an individual writer is "less scholarly"! I have seen this in Poland first hand (the Church has recently moved to compromise my doctoral track because of my curiosity about the Sisters of Bethany and scores of other issues needing scholarly review, but which the students have been told never to discuss!). Let's however go back to our topic. The fact remains, and I will repeat it a thousand of times: the pogrom of Kielce was one of the most vicious crimes in mankind's history, unlike any other crime! You do not find a word about this in Chodakiewicz, Bugaj, Nowak, "Far from Truth,"and the entire Catholic Church's analysis so far! This single historical and moral fact is the truth that too many in Poland fear and want to hide, yet, I repeat, I consider every analysis that obscures, ignores, or hides under "other, more scholarly reviews" this single truth, as unscholarly and bordering on evil! As a Catholic, a scholar myself, and a true Pole, I will never hide this single truth under the mountain of "more scholarly, but other, truths." And I do not care how much more pseudo science I hear in Poland, from the academia and from the Church: until I hear this single truth stated clearly, that massacring 30 emaciated Jewish survivors from Auschwitz because they wanted back to their homes, after many years of unspeakable hell, was a crime against humanity that Poland and Church must never hide ...or call "publicystyka," or "agityka" (a Russian term used by Nowak), as most secular and Church scholars have been doing heretofore! I find it to be shameful in the highest degree! And I find it unworthy of Poland! Today mnost Poles and thr Church are not prepared to face the truth. They prefer to hide and reject it. It is a sign of great weakness. Those peopel suffer from some hideous complexes. Why si it such a problem to them? Why does it hurt people to admit to crimes that weren`t committed by themselves??? They weren`t a murderers in Kilece. They shouldn`t feeel any personal guilt bestowed on them by theirn antisemitic ancesrtors. Why not discuss the past once and for all and close it at last? Tjose morons are going to prolong thingfs beyond necessary limits.
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nathanael
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Post by nathanael on Feb 13, 2008 6:19:40 GMT -7
In the next to last paragraph of his article "Far From Truth," Piotr Gontarczyk states that "a question arises whether [Poles'] education should be entrusted to such people like Jan Tomasz Gross." I say, no, it should not, entirely: there are other truth-loving people among Poles themselves! But I also say that neither should the education of the Polish people be entrusted entirely to the Polish intelligentsia spokesmen alone! Why? Because the Polish Communist era intelligentsia, Piotr Gontarczyk included - with all their presumed scholarliness and moral authority - had 63 years to educate the Poles about the horror and implications of the pogrom of Kielce ... and did not! So I say, were it not for Jan Gross, many Poles may have never known about this black spot on their history! And this is the best argument against the numerous detractors of Gross's book! But I also hope that the Polish Church will do more to educate Poles in truth!
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