Poland's status still "not equal"

[Jaga]

I am not really sure what to think about it. I am very patriotic but....Poles should learn to think as Europeans rather than to demand more and more for Poland from EU.

Poland's status still "not equal," foreign minister says

WARSAW: In spite of being a full member of both NATO and the European Union, Poland does not yet feel secure, nor has it completed the revolution that ended Communist rule in 1989, according to the country's top diplomat, Foreign Minister Anna Fotyga.

With growing concern over Russia's use of its energy wealth as a political weapon, German restitution claims for property ceded to Poland after 1945 and close ties between its historic enemies, Moscow and Berlin, Fotyga says, Warsaw has to fight to defend its interests inside the EU and the Western military alliance.

"Poland's status is not equal to other EU and NATO member states," Fotyga said in an interview Monday in her Warsaw office, days after Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski announced early elections for autumn. It particularly rankles her that ever since Poland joined the blocs, the country's status "has been questioned by Russia" and other countries, including Germany.

Poland's recent positions - from blocking talks for a new EU-Russia trade accord and insisting on more voting rights to match the biggest EU member states, to agreeing to deploy a U.S. missile defense system on its territory - have annoyed its European partners.

Several countries have complained that Poland under Kaczynski's nationalist conservative government, elected in September 2005 after promising to stamp out corruption and rid the administration of former Communists, has been uncompromising in defending its national interests at the expense of EU solidarity.

...
www.iht.com/articles/2007/08/14/news/poland.php

[leslie]

Jaga
I'm afraid that the general feelings of people in Europe appear to be are that Poland has not yet learned how to be a member of the Community. As keeps on arising, much of this failure seems to be the result of the domineering/demanding attitude of the twins and also the demanding approach of the Polish Catholic Church - these are not the way to 'win friends and influence people'. Poland has not yet the power base in Europe to start demanding, rather than proposing - but it is seen as trying to be the dominant member.
Leslie

[george]

Interesting article Jaga. I'm torn between both views on this subject. On one hand Poland seems bombastic in its relations to other Europeon nations. On the other hand Poland didn't win its indepenence to " Keep its mouth shut and be a nice little boy".
They went through way too much ( much more than most of its Europeon neighbors ) to shut up and going along with the club. With the Germany and Russia pipe line deal along with Germany's seemingly desire to dominate the Eurpeon Union, i can't blame Poland for being a little skittish about the way the Europe is run. They have no reason to keep their mouths shut. They are in the heart of Europe and should have a significant say in the way it is run. There is no reason why they should have to wait for them to obtain a " power base " before they express their opinons. When they needed tthe support from 1939, Europe did not come to its defense ( Warsaw Rising ). Why should they keep quiet and go along with their " Big Brothers". If their big brothers went through this what they went through you wouldn't hear the end of the bitching.
They have a right to raise their voices without going through a Europeon test for their loyalties. If loyalty was part of the test, Europe would flunk!!

[bescheid]

george said:

Interesting article Jaga. I'm torn between both views on this subject. On one hand Poland seems bombastic in its relations to other Europeon nations. On the other hand Poland didn't win its indepenence to " Keep its mouth shut and be a nice little boy".
They went through way too much ( much more than most of its Europeon neighbors ) to shut up and going along with the club. With the Germany and Russia pipe line deal along with Germany's seemingly desire to dominate the Eurpeon Union, i can't blame Poland for being a little skittish about the way the Europe is run. They have no reason to keep their mouths shut. They are in the heart of Europe and should have a significant say in the way it is run. There is no reason why they should have to wait for them to obtain a " power base " before they express their opinons. When they needed tthe support from 1939, Europe did not come to its defense ( Warsaw Rising ). Why should they keep quiet and go along with their " Big Brothers". If their big brothers went through this what they went through you wouldn't hear the end of the bitching.
They have a right to raise their voices without going through a Europeon test for their loyalties. If loyalty was part of the test, Europe would flunk!!

George

I would like to agree with you on this, but unfortunately reality will say other wise. For I do not wish to irritate those Polish folks here, but...The Warsaw government is neither naive or with out ulterior motives. For they knew very well how to open the coffers of funding out of the EU Treasury for years of neglect with their infrastructure. There are and never any complaint whilst cashing a German bank draft, only until the money is on deposit, then we hear the very old worn out whine of the war years.

Well, the German money given to Poland, is directly out of the German workers pockets, yes, that money is earned with the sweat of working people. Yes, and it is a very large gripe of many German working people.

In as much as of the pipe line. I am surprised of the naivety of Americans. To know not the reason of the trans-sea route of the pipe, was to remove it out of any hands guided by political figures as of the kind currently in control of the helm of the Warsaw government.

The secondary reason of the Trans-sea route, was to keep transport cost down. For if across any square meter of Polish soil, the government {Warsaw} will and would have, placed a transport tax against the owners of the pipe.

Forgotten also, if at all remembered. There is a designed in out let on the pipe for Polish access.

It would so seem, for any reason to be imagined, the Warsaw government will have their hands out for a free money hand out.

If I seem perhaps some what harsh, will rethink your currant facts and recent history. Look at the panic of lack of infrastructure currently in place in Poland to handle the games, yes. And where is the Warsaw eyes looking at, well it is not Russian, it is West, and for another free hand out.

It is not just my opinion, but, well shared by many of my work partner people. If the American radar rocket programme was so important, then they {Warsaw} government needs be to tidy up to the Americans for funding, they seem to have an ample full piggy bank to dip into.

Oppps, or did I forget, they are broke with the war cost and housing market crash with the face of inflation approaching their front door.

Oh well, they may tidy up to the Russians for a change, for that is the origin of energy supplies. And, we are looking at another cold winter in a few months.

Charles

[george]

Oh Charles, Poland was given a hand out from the EU? Let me refresh your short memory. Ever hear of the Marshall Plan? Yes, these were funds that came from the " sweat of hard working Americans " who gave Germany money to restart their economy despite the fact they were the ones who started the darn war in the first place, along with the murder, theft, rape and general plunder they commited. Selective memory?
Geez, did Germany turn down this generous offer that Poland was never offered? I don't think so. They took the funds and ran like a thief in the night. So i guess Charles, Germany was also a country that was willing to get a free "handout" as you say.
In so far as the pipline is concerned. Let me once more remind you that Chancellor Shroeder took a job with the Russian oil industry right after he orchestrated the deal, when he stepped down from office. Yet another German leader whoreing out themselves to the Russians for financial or political gain. History does repeat itself often doesn't it?

[bescheid]

George

I see my post raised up your dander! Well, this is ok, indicates you have spirit. I wished to see what was behind the smiling face and I found what I was looking for.

You see George, you are an American, as so, we Europeans expect very little of you, but, this means not we do not like you, for we do. As a person, I admire you for your status as an American citizen and I do admire you country, for it is very rich, with also a very surprising vastness to it.

But, you have never experienced total war on your soil and until you have, you will never hold the same status as us in understanding.

And yes, my country, my self, for I am a product of my country. I will stand by all actions initiated and prosecuted in the name of my country, but,,,I may not agree it.

And yes, we Germans {North}are an aggressive people. For we are producers and builders, we create and are very progressive.

Our problem with this is: We {I}expect the same standards of others, and are disappointed as they fall short. Yes, I am hard on Poland. For I know of this of Poland. Poland is a modern nation populated with very good people. It has an excellent central government and there is absolutely no excuse to be 2nd rate as they {Warsaw Government} have demonstrated.

And yes, we conquered most of Europe at one time and held it against the will. It was accomplished because we were better prepared and better equipped.

There was no reason of your country and that of the UK, to have entered this war. For you were not threatened by my Government, it is very simple, there was no physical efficient manner to transport an military force across the channel nor was it physically possible to transport an entire military force across the Atlantic to America.

You see, I speak with reality and not as you. For you are an American,you are not a Polish citizen, you have only Polish blood line. For you are speaking out of pride and emotion, only.

You people never declared war upon the Soviet Union as they over ran Poland. My country never declared war against your country or of Britain.

Have you ever wondered of this?

If your country had been smart, and left my country alone, our military would have used Poland as a marshaling yard, then over run The Soviet Union. As doing so, there never would have been a Cold War, there would have never been a threat of World Wide Communism Domination, there would have never been a Russian {Khrushchev and his famous threat to the West}{ We will bury you}...

In as much to the pipe. Yes, you are half correct, out Herr Schröder was in on that. For with his direction and direct friend-ship with Vladimir Putin, there would be no tricks pulled. The Warsaw government never realized that, nor were they trained in negotiations well enough to have competed. So, it was up to us.

As an American, you are not expected to know this, but: Poland is not in the woods now or ever in the pipe.

For my government under Angela Merkel {East German} has ensured ample supplies to Poland of gas {Earth Gas}. For the firm of BASF has ensured through a subsidy, that of Wintershall, a standing offer of access to Western Gas {Earth Gas} in an effort to diversify away from a high Gas import dependency away from Russia. This with NordStream, formally {North European Gas Pipeline} By using this route, it by passes all former Soviet-era, land based transit infrastructure that traverses several former Soviet Bloc countries, including Belarus-Ukraine and Poland.

Now to update you on currant events of which are directly once again to assist with energy supplies to Poland.

Very currant:

In conjunction with the Baltic pipe. {Energinet.dk}has recently completed an agreement with Polish {PGNiG}with pipe supplies from the Baltic pipe, routed from Russia through Dänemark, to Poland. This is self, will enter-Connect to the Skanled project. The project is a Skandinavian Consortium between {Dänemark/Schwedin/Norwegerin} This is a separate Baltic pipe line, it would serve first the consortium, then with a branch built with the same technology, will reach and serve Poland. As the pipe is paid down, it would then revert to Polish ownership.

And yes, I admit, I am tricky. For I served under some very tricky people, this to of learnt of my trade and survival. And yes, I have been the author of a certain amount of information you people have named as {propaganda}, it was of a good cause for the common good.

And yes, were are not perfect, nor would I ever profess to be so. For whilst serving initially in the Pullach office after my release from the Bundeswehr. I was formally serving in one of many offices of military intelligence in Hamburg as a young man. And served in Syria/Balkans/South Africa and North America.

And yes, you broached the Marshall plan and the assistance of the Americans and British with our reconstruction in the immediate post war time. Your leadership knew us, that we would eventually rebuild our selves. With this, your leadership knew once rebuilt, the direction we would have turned with our energy, may not have been in the best interest of your government.

So your government hedged its bets with us. For we were used as a shield against the Soviet intentions of World Domination. And with my country as a staging ground, your government stationed a standing military and Nuclear arsenal on our lands.

And yes, even though the intentions of your Government was not honourable. I hold a great appreciation to the Americans for their help. But, as a person, I hold a greater respekt to the British military, for they were gentleman of honour.

As a younger, I was entrusted to an Auntie {Tante} and taken out of war time Germany before the end, for we were afraid of retaliation of your solders. We had heard {and I will tell you} the young advancing solders were shooting all German people in their way, every one they would kill on sight. And as my family owned a war time factory as an asset to the war. It would have been bad.

After the war, The British military occupied Dänemark. Our solders had left with the heavy equipment and we stayed. For only the very few knew of Auntie and me were not nationals, but German. The British solders conducted inspections of the small school I attended and never suspected my nationality, for I was very fair and blond. I learnt my English of which was required by the British occupational forces and through them, we received the most of our school supplies.

So as you see, I do have much to be grateful after the conquerers had taken my country.

But, I would enjoy to share with you what could have been that was not. I had initially have read this whilst serving in Pullach, but had little idea it was circulated in America in English. This is a publik consumer version, but, it is enough to relay the main idea.

www.leedstrinity.ac.uk/histcourse/powers/text/s1lafea.htm

Charles

[leslie]

George
Something that may put a slightly different face on some of the comments you made about Germany receiving money from the Marshall Plan. The UK, France and a number of other countries accepted the generous offers by the Americans to help them after the war (a war that was started by UK declaring war on Germany after it had invaded Poland as per the agreement between UK and Poland). Help under the Marshall Plan was offered to Russia AND ITS ALLIES but the offer was rejected as part of the conditions of the offer was the control of communism. As Poland at this time was under communist government it must be seen as a Russian ally (or even part of Russia), so the offer was rejected on their behalf. If you want to place blame for Poland not getting a 'hand-out', look to the East not to the West.
Leslie

[george]

Leslie....I'll make this short and sweet. Did Poland have a choice???

[george]

Thank you Charles for clarafying Germany's reason for going to war. Now i understand. Germany invaded Poland only to protect them from from invasion by the Soviets. Why didn't i think of that. That explains the systematic genocide of six million Jews. Also that explains Germany's intention of making Slav's slaves to the German nation. Its so obvious it smacks you right in the nose. Besides Charles, as you explained, Germans are "producers and they create and are very progressive". Good reason to start a world war!
If the USA had your knowlege, we could have left things the way they were and let the Germans sort things out so to speak, because they obviously new what was good for Europe and the world. I guess that German meglomania is showing. Your attitude reminds me of the kid who kills his parents and then whines about the fact that he's an orphan.
By the way Charles, you were afraid of advancing American soldiers? Join the company of Poles were were also afraid of advancing German soldiers. Americans killing German citizens? Germans killed civilians with apparent glee. Maybe you should explain that fact to your Auntie ( Tante ). You were worried because your family owned a wartime factory? You should have. They probably should have been brought up on war time charges for contributing to one of the most obscene war time efforts in the history of the world. Explain that one to Auntie also. ( If she's still alive )

[leslie]

George - I too will make this short and sweet. It took you until 1989, but you did it!!
Leslie

[bescheid]

george said:

Thank you Charles for clarafying Germany's reason for going to war. Now i understand. Germany invaded Poland only to protect them from from invasion by the Soviets. Why didn't i think of that. That explains the systematic genocide of six million Jews. Also that explains Germany's intention of making Slav's slaves to the German nation. Its so obvious it smacks you right in the nose. Besides Charles, as you explained, Germans are "producers and they create and are very progressive". Good reason to start a world war!
If the USA had your knowlege, we could have left things the way they were and let the Germans sort things out so to speak, because they obviously new what was good for Europe and the world. I guess that German meglomania is showing. Your attitude reminds me of the kid who kills his parents and then whines about the fact that he's an orphan.
By the way Charles, you were afraid of advancing American soldiers? Join the company of Poles were were also afraid of advancing German soldiers. Americans killing German citizens? Germans killed civilians with apparent glee. Maybe you should explain that fact to your Auntie ( Tante ). You were worried because your family owned a wartime factory? You should have. They probably should have been brought up on war time charges for contributing to one of the most obscene war time efforts in the history of the world. Explain that one to Auntie also. ( If she's still alive )

George

Thank you for revealing your true colours.

Charles

[leslie]

George
Whoever was right or wrong. this is now no excuse for Poland - now it is a member of the EU - trying to take over the EU: this is something that is seen by most member states of the EU and will only change when Poland starts 'asking' for changes that will help it rather than 'demanding'.
Leslie

[george]

Better late than never Leslie. And Charles, I stand up to my colors any day of the week compared to your colors

[george]

I just love when some of these people become history revisionists. All of a sudden its " we were misunderstood"! We only had good things in mind for the rest of the world. Of course they forget the misery they inflicted. But i think i understand. After sixty two years , some forget. Aha! Now its time for us to be victims also. Hence, the demand for cultural items to be returned. Hence, time for land to be returned. Folks, these kind of people are wolves in sheeps clothing. Don't fall for it. You can find plenty of these attitudes in any prison throughout the world. Its the attitude of " Hey i'm not the victim afterall! Its society or the world in general's fault. Its amazing what time will do if people let them. My advice is " Don't fall for the bullcrap". Call a spade a spade and don't fall for Revionist history" which seems to be the vougue nowadays.

[rdywenur]

George I hope not or we will be giving Mahattan back to the indians. Already some are claiming their land back.