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Post by justjohn on Dec 17, 2005 5:10:11 GMT -7
Bob is correct - the USA is a constitutional republic - If the USA was a true/pure democracy the last two presidental elections would have put Gore or Kerry in the White House. In a country of this size pure democracy is just unworkable - voters would have to vote on EVERY SINGLE bill, act or law - that is why the USA moved to a representational form of government were the indiviudal voters gives up "some" of their voting rights to their elected officials. It is the responsibility of the elected to represent the will of their voters (in the home district) to cast their votes for those they represent. Hollister and Bob, that is correct !!!!
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Post by bescheid on Dec 17, 2005 8:46:52 GMT -7
Piwo
This is just a return post to thank you. We are both very stubborn people and I do admire your manner of response. It was very gracious of you.
Thank You
Charles
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Post by pieter on Dec 17, 2005 9:38:24 GMT -7
I voted yes, if the illegal immigrant kid learns proper English, respect and obbey's the customs, traditions, heritage and laws and regulations of the USA. Scientists, researchers on demographic devellopment and Economists warn that the Western countries have a to low birthrate, to be able to compete in the near future, because we get grey populations. In Europe it is simply a matter of survival to select the best immigrants to be able to compete with India, China, other East Asian tigers as South-Korea(; imagine the North and South united in the near future), Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, Singapore and others. From one hand there are anti-immigrant sentiments under the European population, Xenophobe politicians and parties, and left and right parties and politicians who use Populism against foreigners to gain vote, while in the same time economical, financial and in some cases even religious we need immigrants to be able to run our healthcare, have mechanical personal (we need Poles, although many people refuse to admit that. Poland has more tecnical skilled people than the Netherlands, and employers want Poles above Duch empoyees, because Poles work harder and cost less). In the same time, while the "original Europeans" get less religious, many christians from Africa, Asia and the Middle-east come to Europe. Abandoned Duch reformed or Catholic churches became Assyrian Orthodox, Armenian or African churches. In Amsterdam African mission workers do their Evangelical work under the Duch headen whites.
Pieter
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piwo
Citizen of the World
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Posts: 1,189
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Post by piwo on Dec 17, 2005 12:47:23 GMT -7
Piwo This is just a return post to thank you. We are both very stubborn people ..... Charles From your mouth to God's ear! Proszę bardzo, i dziękuję panu za takie miły słowy. I've nothing but respect for open conversation, even when it is contrary to my held beliefs. There are many stubborn people here, and though I find myself on the minority side in most instances of ideology, I try not to let that dissuade me from voicing that opinion. I don't think that sets well with some. Perhaps that's why I constantly find myself at the eye of the storm, even on threads where I agreed completely with those so engaged with said duologue. Kaima, I mentioned the “constitutional Republic” phrase as a clarifying point to the impetus of my post after you so astutely pointed out that it was a Constitutional issue, and not merely a passed law or national policy. Had it been either, I could have recommended lobbying representatives and senators and request a change in such, demonstrating the principles of democracy in trying to effect a change to my liking. With 51% of legislators and 51% of Senators, I could conceivably garner that change. Your 14th amendment post nullified that notion, and I merely pointed out why. My error was saying "which it isn't". Certainly we have a democratic form of government. As to the voting business, it is a characteristic that many forms of government provide, and is essential to any democratic "form" of government. As for the purity “of anything”, you are correct: we aren’t. Funny, we agreed that we didn’t have any issue with legals’, and both had difficulty reconciling illegals further burdening our society’s means to care for those so entitled. Once so advised, I conceded resignation to only being capable of wishing safeguards for illegal activity had been provided. I vote from here on end, we forget my clarifying remark earlier on, and simply exist as the democracy we all know and love.
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Post by kaima on Dec 17, 2005 18:32:40 GMT -7
I vote from here on end, we forget my clarifying remark earlier on, and simply exist as the democracy we all know and love. Agreed. I will make one or two more points, but not to argue. You do say "".. and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation ..." (Pledge of Allegiance)" and since it is so popular today to fall back on 'old fashioned values', I will quote "The American's Creed ... I believe in the United States of America ... a democracy in a republic..." that is from the Boy Scout handbook, 1948 I see no conflict in calling this nation a "democracy in a republic" and my argument is with those who insist only on the "republic" part of it. I also have no problem with a representative democracy, s we ahve in this republic, and think people are tossing out distractions when they talk about the impossibility of "100% pure democracy". That is the crap (earlier called bull****) that ignores the essence of our nation and rule by the people. Kai
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Post by jimpres on Dec 29, 2005 8:17:56 GMT -7
In California illegals can attend UCLA at costs for Calif. citizens. Legals from other states must pay out of state tuition. i.e. $6700 for illegals, $24,000 for out of staters. And many illegals come to San Diego have there child and go back to Mexico. Better care here at now cost.
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piwo
Citizen of the World
Co Słychać?
Posts: 1,189
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Post by piwo on Dec 29, 2005 8:35:30 GMT -7
In California illegals can attend UCLA at costs for Calif. citizens. Legals from other states must pay out of state tuition. i.e. $6700 for illegals, $24,000 for out of staters. And many illegals come to San Diego have there child and go back to Mexico. Better care here at now cost.
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Post by bescheid on Dec 29, 2005 14:35:21 GMT -7
Jim
Please do not misunderstand me, I was just curios about the mention of illegals in gaining education and childbirth care.
How does the state determine who is an illegal and who is not? Do they require first a pass port or documentation of citizen ship before allowing entrance into the educational system and health care system?
I don't know! That is why I am asking. If you do not know, that is good enough for me...It is still an interesting subject of information.
Actually I was comparing notes. I received my education and training free. Well, not completely free. I was bound by signed contract to work for the Federal Government for a term of 7 years for this privilege. But, for each University and training school I was enrolled in, I was made to produce personal identification, proof of source of payment. The agent in charge of educational coordination provided the Identification I needed and housing. I just provided the means to get my behind to and from the classes. Some times the housing was some spare barracks.
I was curios as to how these illegals were able to get off so easy..
Charles
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