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Post by karl on Feb 9, 2009 7:27:38 GMT -7
well i've got a lot to say about this. there are many reason i don't post a lot. you guys can be very intimidating. i just don't have the kind of time necessary to comb the internet to provide interesting topics or daily news from every corner of the globe. but i really do appreciate all you do jaga and everyone else who does all the posting to bring us all the information and keep us up to date with what is going on around the world. i enjoy this forum very much. i happened upon this site when i was starting to plan my trip to poland. i was excited to find a place i could go to talk to people who were interested in poland, either lived there or used to or have gone to visit. i was a bit demoralized when instead of getting input from people who might be excited to tell me about everything poland to being criticized for not being clear about what i wanted from you all. (karl - i still love you dearly for that and you were right!). but i stuck with it. and am trying to grow a thicker skin. also it seems that i am a topic killer. everytime i post a reply that was the end of the topic it seems. i felt initially that my lack of higher education or worldly knowledge was obvious and made me uninteresting and undesirable for input to this forum. but thats rediculous i know. but i am realistic. i enjoy reading every post, and although i am not informed enough to contribute to a lot of it, i learn a lot from the forum. so most of the time i quietly read and learn from the sidelines. i contribute when i can if i feel i have something that will help move the topic forward. so i don't post often but i am always present here on the forum every day. it is a wonderful platform for communication and i love it. Dawn For as in short past, and as of now, the currant and present. You have very fine qualities that are only of your self as an individual. Let non ever say otherwise! For not to be ever impressed with the educational degrees of others, for this is only the training they have experienced for preporation for their work, nothing more or less, for each of these people and to the person. Must raise them selves on each and every day as you do, they must then eat and dress as you do. They are not better then you are, for they are the same. Dawn, as mentioned in short past, and I shall once again repeat. You are a very important person! For in your self, you carry a very much amount of life experience/skills that many of us as people do not have, add to this, you have also the ability, motivational skills, to place into print, your thoughts. All very well organized and accurate. Now, these are very real skills that a very many people do not have. You have also, a very unique mind set, and that you are American. It is of a different viewpoint that is refreshing to that of our mindset. For in your self, you bring out many aspects of the same subject, but, in a manner that many of us do not appreciated fully, until you have brought those points out into proper prospective. Thank you Dawn for your post prospective and your presence Karl
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Post by kaima on Feb 9, 2009 15:48:13 GMT -7
I imagine the International participants in this forum are quite happy to see the internal disputes on US politics come to an end - at least temporarily.
Kai
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Post by dbkaczor on Feb 9, 2009 15:55:24 GMT -7
Listen to this. Perhaps it can help improve this forum; you guys can be very intimidating. i was a bit demoralized when instead of getting input from people who might be excited to tell me about everything poland to being criticized for not being clear about what i wanted am trying to grow a thicker skin. i felt initially that my lack of higher education or worldly knowledge was obvious and made me uninteresting and undesirable for input to this forum. so most of the time i quietly read and learn from the sidelines. Is this how you want your members to feel? put in this way, it sounds very negative generation3! didn't mean to do that. but thanks for pointing it out. :)and thanks to everyone for the support especially karl and neville. its my problem alone if i can't take the heat. but i will take nevilles advice and post with confidence. i enjoy this forum and want to be a positive contributor. and i think this topic can help iron out what may be holding back progress on the forum. so good communication and feedback leads to understanding and mutual respect. long live the polish culture forum!
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Post by tuftabis on Feb 10, 2009 0:56:12 GMT -7
Hi guys, I realized that very few people post. Did we become too political or you are just tired and bored or you have other things to do with your time? I do feel overwhelmed with the quantity of anti-Israeli posts in the forum. I am just waiting for the end of this trend, so I read the forum more rarely and thus post more rarely. The same was with the massive pro-democrat posting around the American election time. On the other hand I understand this is an American forum and for Americans mainly, so I don't complain and just wait. My forum reading policy is to read only chosen threads and authors - to be frank there are less of such nowadays and even those authors who posted interesting posts pertaining to "Polish culture forum" now post either political or other.
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Post by Jaga on Feb 10, 2009 12:39:46 GMT -7
I do feel overwhelmed with the quantity of anti-Israeli posts in the forum. I am just waiting for the end of this trend, so I read the forum more rarely and thus post more rarely. The same was with the massive pro-democrat posting around the American election time. On the other hand I understand this is an American forum and for Americans mainly, so I don't complain and just wait. My forum reading policy is to read only chosen threads and authors - to be frank there are less of such nowadays and even those authors who posted interesting posts pertaining to "Polish culture forum" now post either political or other. Hi Tufta, I understand that my posting about Israel war in Gaza was controversial and it does not refer to Poland. you can skip these posts as much as you want. But, I want to teach you independent thinking and reliance of facts rather than on media bias. I do not understand why the world is completely blind into what is going on in Gaza. Israel killed 1300 people, majority icompletelu nnocent civilians and nobody reacts. Can you imagine any other country doing this? What do you mean by "anti-israeli"? Do you think that Gaza people are treated equal to Israeli? Or you think that this is an apartheid system? Why nobody cares? Why there is such a double-standard and demonization of Palestine, Hamas and Iran? Do you know that there was no any suicide bombing in Israel for more than a year? Can you list one instance when Iran invaded any other country? I just want to teach you guys critical thinking skills. I want you to have a heart
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Post by Jaga on Feb 10, 2009 12:40:55 GMT -7
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Post by tuftabis on Feb 10, 2009 14:55:22 GMT -7
Jaga, Poland has very good relations with both Israel and with Palestine. Why is that? Because we have sympathy for both sides involved in this endless conflict. Both sides are in fact kind of victims of global politics done over their head. This is very well mirrored in Polish media which have the guts to openly critisize the wrongs done by either side and to praise the peace-promoting actions. You mention that the world doesn;t react to civilian deaths in Gaza. You are wrong here - the world reacts, the politicial and military representatives of Israel's strongest allies are regularly scolding their Israeli friends for that, but this is not always permeating to te public or mass media. You have a large and loving heart, that is for sure. But this is war there, and people die in war. It is cruel fact. I am sure Israel can do more to save the innocent life, but Israel has a right to defend own citizens. We may critisize the mistakes of any administration in the world but we cannot deny any nation a right to defend own citizens. You mention media bias. Where's that media bias per saldo? Look at the 13 pages of the 'Israelis righteous kill Palestinians' thread which is a collection of media concentrating only on Israels mistakes. Without any constructive suggestions. I hate reading everyday in my newspapers about next set of Palestinians dead. I wish Israel could deal with it another way. But I have no idea how. The very instant I get so wise that sitting in my comfortable chair in safe Poland I discover a good method of dealing with this situation which doesn't involve reacting with arms to armed attack - I will be the first to restlessly and unconditionally critisize Israel for not using this method. Until that time I will not do it. You mention critical thinking skills. They are often not in accord with what our hearts say. They are acting against each other. Look wider, beyond the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Why there is so much criticism towards Israel for its actions in Gaza strip. Why there's a huge silence about Chechen nation, almost liquidated by Russia? Why the sensitive hearts of the world (rightly) cry over the fate of Palestinian innocent civilians, and they don't do it over Chechen ones? ... The skills of critical thinking once they are acquired never stop at what is presently presented for the eyes. It is sometimes better not to have them and live without them, even if it would have been a fools paradise. Which, apart from a really small group of people in the world, we actually all live in.
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Post by Jaga on Feb 10, 2009 16:04:19 GMT -7
You are right that the people who sometimes criticize American foreign policy do not see Soviet empire crimes
I still do not understand the argument which you mention as well as mass media and politicians that "Israel needs to defend its population". Do Gaza, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon have a right to defend itself? What this right means? Does it mean that you can kill everybody around?
Invasion of Gaza was one-sided. Otherwise how you can explain the fact that only 3 civilian Israeli were killed and almost no military (10 soldiers, some in friendly fire). This was the invasion of Gaza by Israel, not a fight of two equal sides.
Yes, people in Gaza are poor and primitive. They fight. Hamas and Fatah fight with each other. Why? Because they have no life. Israel does not treat them as normal people who have rights.
I was always appauled when somebody was telling me in Poland that "Jews have a power over Polish government and over the world". This is not true of course. Nevertheless, you cannot do any political carreer in the US if you do not support Israel 100%. The Israel lobby, AIPAC is considered one of the most 5 powerful lobbies in the US. Its conferences are visited by the most prominent politicians each year.
Otherwise why you could explain the fact that many UN resolutions that talk about Israel are overturn only by the US?
My question - there is a double-standard in politics and somehow people miss it. Some countries are treated with leniency and some other - without. Palestinians are treated as terrorists because.... they are not allow to have the official army.
You would have to come to live in the US to understand this situation from the other side of the media. in the US you have to be on one side....
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Post by freetobe on Feb 10, 2009 20:43:52 GMT -7
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Post by freetobe on Feb 10, 2009 21:26:39 GMT -7
Jaga, After you read the article I sent you which I thought would be appropriate since you love to quote others who write what you believe is true, then go back and do your history on Palestine and Zionism. What is your definition of "good terrorists"? That characterization doesn't exist except in your mind. We Americans,of which you are one, and our new administration are trying to right the the wrongs of the previous administration. I believe that the Palestinians and Israelis have to work out a solution themselves. So many attempts, agreements, and UN resolutions have come and gone and the war goes on. Other nations can't help help them now unless both sides cooperate, which they seem unwilling to do. The inhabitants of the middle east have been battling since the beginning of time. The US is no stranger to it's internal wars and bad judgement in choices of who or what they ally with. There is no nation that has not committed their share of mistakes. At this point in time, I would like to see a measured withdrawal of U.S. troops from all of the Middle East, a U.S. pull back from NATO and a concentrated effort of Israeli, British, German and U.S. operatives to bring down the Taliban and Al Queda, mostly Bin Laden. I would also like you to for once to acknowledge the opportunity for higher education and freedom that you have in the U.S.A.
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Post by pieter on Feb 11, 2009 9:07:40 GMT -7
Jaga,
I agree with many things, but one thing adult people don't like is when fellow members want to teach them something like a school teacher, even if such a person is a flamer.
You are from a personal, subjective, emtional and maybe political view correct in your perspective of the Middle east, Israel and the Palestinians, but other people have their opinion, emotions, political view and perspective too!
In Holland I am always allergic about people who want to teach me something from their perspective, because it get's in the way of my idenpendant, autonomous, and free thougth.
I respect your view and agree with many things, but also differ on a lot of things. On Iran and Hamas for instance.
I am not looking from a Pro-Palestinian European perspective only. We agree on the fact that Palestinians are discriminated structurally and constantly, but do not have the solution to the problem and the realistic fact that you have a geopolitical reality!
Pieter
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Post by Jaga on Feb 11, 2009 15:05:20 GMT -7
Pieter,
you are probably right. I do not try to tell people that they are wrong and I am right. I would like everybody to know the facts. But probably sometimes they may see me as a person who force my views to the other.
The problem is that Gaza and Palestinians are the underdogs in this conflict. They have no money, they own no mass media in the US, they do not have a propaganda machine.
Can you imagine if we will be supporting South Africa's apartheid policies over the rights of the black community? Yes, maybe black South Africans are more primitive, valiant and poor, but this can be explain by the way they live.
The same is with Palestine vs Israel. Israel has unconditional support from the US, is the recipient of the biggest foreign help and still has friendly mass-media even after killing 1300 people.
I am just shocked that the analysis of the situation is so one-sided.
Sorry if I sound sometimes as forcing my views on the others.
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Post by iloveapolishgirl on Feb 12, 2009 0:28:37 GMT -7
Hey, I can give two reasons for my underparticipation... one... time... just don't have much of it I'm headed to disney world on Sat with my daugther to meet up with my fiancee... oh, busy busy!!! Not to mention all the time spent on researching K-1 Visas and similar such stuff!! #2 ... Why do I not get emails telling me when someone has replied to a thread I am 'watching'?? all other forums I participate in... including other proboards site, at least in the past.. send me such emails! I'd probably stop by more often if I got those reminders!! But, otherwise, I tend to read and only comment if I feel I have something to add or have a question or something... otherwise, I just lurk It's not like I have a whole lot of information to provide!! I'm still only a novice as to knowing much about Polish stuff dvc
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Post by iloveapolishgirl on Feb 12, 2009 0:47:03 GMT -7
oh, perhaps I should add... after posting the above I read some of the latest comments... I'm glad I didn't see any of those posts about Isreal or USA or such stuff... I probably wouldn't have come back if I did. This is a forum about polish stuff. That's what I come here for. All that garbage about having to support Isreal in US or Isreal is bad or whatever.. I don't and wouldn't come here for that, nor would I comment on it. I certainly have my own views on these things... but this certainly is not the place I would consider sharing them. Jaga, you post wonderful articles I enjoy reading. Please keep posting. I will post here and there as appropriate. However, additional topics I WOULD be interested in would include info on visa processing, etc with regards to Poland. Particularly K-1 visas, of course Thank you! dvc
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Post by tuftabis on Feb 12, 2009 5:25:29 GMT -7
You are right that the people who sometimes criticize American foreign policy do not see Soviet empire crimes The crimes in Chechenia were done by Russian Federation not just Soviet Union. The problem remains - the old-European media fiercely promote the empathy for Arab people fighting againts Israel. And at the same time they are silent about even worse fate of Chechen people. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one problem, the US political system with different lobbies fighting for the steering wheel is another problem. By the Israels right to defence I meant the general political situation - Israel facing Arab organizations and even states, for instance Iran, which openly say they want to 'take Israel off the map'. These states, as well as Russia or previously SU, use the Palestinian people in their fight, just us the USA have been using Israel for their fight for domination in the region rich in oil. The US-Israeli dependance is bilateral, not one sided. Jaga, I don't want to get farther and further into this argument. I understand your point of view. I hope you understand mine. When you post a lot on such a hot topic, one possible side-effect is people post less, and this was your question and thus my reply to you.
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