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Post by pieter on Jul 17, 2006 2:43:18 GMT -7
Jaga,
This is Western democracy, that we can speak and discuss this topics without being controlled, checked and taken responsable by the authorities for our opposing views. That's the reality in the Middle-East, and I never trust official Arab media, government spokesmen or the so called Syrian or Iranian concern for Lebanon or Palestine. The same with the Israeli and American side who have very refined and sophisticated Propaganda machines. As you may have found out the situation is a little bit more complicated than the simple "Good guys bad guys" story. I am simply not neutral or objective in this case, because my sympathy in this region lies symply and very subjectively with the Israeli's, Lebanese Forces (Maronite Christian movement and militia) and the Americans. Israel is both a Western and a Middle-eastern country, and in it's harsh policy towards the Palestinians and Lebanese Shia militia is as tough as Syria was against it's Moslem Brotherhood and Jordan against the Palestinians in the seventees. I think that Israel will lose it's Lebanese christian "allies" if it keeps attacking non-Hezbollah targets, and will alienate the world further from herself if it gives no free passage for foreign civilians and officials on Lebanese soil to Syria, Cyprus or elsewhere. If they really want to whipe out Hezbollah, than a conflict with Syria is not unlikely. I wonder how the other Arab countries will act if the conflict spreads to three countries? Egypt has a modern army with American tanks and Apache helicopters, Saoudi-Arabia idem dito. History has proven that Arab leaders can change from position as a leaf falling from a tree. You never know what they will decide on the long term if they are put under pressure by the Arab masses, who are under the strong influence of the Moslem Brotherhood and other Islamist organisations in the various countries. In my view America and Europe should put more pressure on Israel to act with restraint, and should put a higher pressure on Iran and Syria. If Tel Aviv will be hit the hell will brake loose in the region. What we have seen yet might only be the beginning, because Israel has'nt yet used their full power. The Israeli civilians are shocked by the incapability of their army to prevent the abduction of soldiers and the airspace of Israel. There is no a real doubt abou their own army with the Israeli's.
Pieter
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Post by pieter on Jul 17, 2006 3:33:49 GMT -7
Charles, thanks. I looked there. I am very surprised how one sided the mass media here are. They invite only Israeli officials to talk about it and they seem to magnify Israeli casualties but do not talk about the other site casualties. Why nobody talks to Lebanon officials? This is so ridoculous if Israel is saving its own people to conduct the war .... in Lebanon, because Lebanese are not of the same value as Israeli are, right? Besides - I cannot imagine Israel to carry its military through Israel to Syria and then - have a support from the US for it. FoxNews talks about how sophisticated are weapons of Hezbollah without mentioning Israeli patriots and nuclear weapons. Everything is so one-sided that just scary! Do we really live in democracy? In Europe the media report from two sides, because we continuously see reporters from Beirut and Jerusalem interviewing Lebanese citizens and Israeli's. What stikes me is that here the Lebanese side is more in the picture than Israel. I heard and saw many Lebanese citizens, a Syrian ambassador, Lebanese officials and spokesmen, and only a few Israeli's. I heard Barak and Shomon Peres on the Dutch television, and a shopkeeper in Northern Israel, and one Israeli girl getting money from a machine in the street, who said that she would be going to Jerusalem, because it is safer there. Now I get the impression that the American media are more on the Israeli side of the story and the Dutch/European more on the Lebanese side, but with our correspondents in Jerusalem and Northern Israel too. I get the impression that the news coverage here is more two sided. I hope and pray for the safety of our Dutch, American and other people who try to escape from Lebanon. Many families with little children are doing their upmost best to secure the lives of their families and themselves. The French send a ship to the Lebanese coast, to evacuate French and other Western tourists, employes and Lebanese citizens. Im just heard that the Dutch convoy of busses with huge Dutch flags reached the Syrian border, and the anchorwomen of the news said that they send a Dutch military plane to Damascus, and hope that the civilians we will be back in the Netherlands by night. I hope that the trapped 25.000 Americans will be able to reach the US or Europe in a simular way. I feel personally connected to both Lebanon and Israel, because I knew Lebanese and Israeli students in Amsterdam and Arnhem. One half Lebanese-half Dutch girl that lived in the student flat of my Amsterdam girlfriend in 1991-1992 often woke up in the middle of the night screaming hysterically (because of her nightmares). She had experianced the Lebanese civil war in the eightees and had a war trauma. She had experianced terrible things in Beirut than. I did not know what, but it was surely aprt of her personal heritage. Unfortunately there will be a new generation of kids in Lebanon, Israel and Gaza who will be just like here. Traumatized people with neurotic syndromes.
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Post by Jaga on Jul 17, 2006 7:15:41 GMT -7
My husband just told me that in American TV it was said that Israel "entered" Lebanon. Nice word does not sound so bad - just like during WW II Hitler "entered" Poland
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Post by bescheid on Jul 17, 2006 8:29:52 GMT -7
The following is a release statement from the US Bureau of Consular Affairs. Lebanon Situation Update United States Department of State Bureau of Consular Affairs Washington, DC 20520 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is current as of today, Mon Jul 17 08:21:21 2006. A message to American citizens in Lebanon: The US Department of State and the US Department of Defense continue working on a plan to help American citizens who wish to depart Lebanon to leave in a secure and orderly manner. To assist in the development of that operation, the U.S. Government is sending an assessment team to Beirut to facilitate the safe departure of Americans who wish to leave. The Embassy is open and will remain open at this time in support of American citizens in Lebanon. American citizens may register by contacting the Embassy in Beirut directly, or through the State Department's Bureau of Consular Affairs registration site at travelregistration.state.gov. Updated information on travel and security in Lebanon may be obtained from the Department of State by calling 1-888-407-4747 within the United States, or, from overseas, 1-202-501-4444. Additional information, as it becomes available will be released via the media, Embassy warden announcements and on the Department and Embassy websites. This site is managed by the Bureau of Consular Affairs, U.S. Department of State. External links to other Internet sites should not beconstrued as an endorsement of the views contained therein. Copyright Information Disclaimers www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/15/lebanon.europeans.ap/www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/07/14/lebanon.us.citizens/As was my luck, for the moment, was unable to locate in English language a German news print report of European evacuations out of Lebanon. So as evedent, the CNN must bear the reports of currant events as they are unfolding. Charles
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Post by bescheid on Jul 17, 2006 9:06:40 GMT -7
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Post by sciwriter on Jul 17, 2006 9:21:04 GMT -7
Charles, I can't connect to the Spiegel report. Carl
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Post by bescheid on Jul 17, 2006 9:28:08 GMT -7
Carl
I will work on it. For the present, use the paint over method of transfere to your top address space, then clicken onto the go.
Charles
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Post by bescheid on Jul 17, 2006 9:42:45 GMT -7
Carl
OK, the system will not take the url count. Paint over the address for transfer to your top address indicator, click on go. It will come up with error, ignore the notice as it is stupid, erase what nonsense is on it, and replace this with your url address and click go as you normally would.
Computers try always to please the user with such nonsense when it is in self confused.
Sorry
Charles
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Post by sciwriter on Jul 17, 2006 11:27:50 GMT -7
Charles, I connected as you instructed. Excellent article. Thanks. Carl
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Post by pieter on Jul 17, 2006 12:06:19 GMT -7
My husband just told me that in American TV it was said that Israel "entered" Lebanon. Nice word does not sound so bad - just like during WW II Hitler "entered" Poland Exept that the Nazi's entered Poland with massive groundforces too, and killed more civilians and Polish soldiers than the Israeli's did in one week. The Nazi's lead an extermination war in Poland, aiming at deliberately killing as many people as possible. The Israeli's want to hit Hezbollah headquarters, the Lebanese army's communication and radar stations and baraks, infrastructure and industries and powerplants, not deliberately civilian targets. There is a lot of collateral damage on both sides, and the war lords of both side won't stop. Hezbollah started it, but nobody stopped them in the Arab world. Nobody dared to unarm Hezbollah and limitize it's power. And I know that many Lebanese wanted and want an end to the Syrian influence in Lebanon. Hezbollah is the Syrian influence in Lebanon, Irans stronghold in the North of the Middle east, and the first organisation that started with suicide bombings on American and French marines in the eightees. I know that America is very reluctant to intervene in Lebanon, because of that. They have their hands full of Iraq and Afghanistan. That's the reason America backs Israel. The USA simply does not want to get involved. If America gets involved Syria is the next target. I am sure of that.
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Post by Jaga on Jul 17, 2006 12:22:00 GMT -7
Carl OK, the system will not take the url count. Paint over the address for transfer to your top address indicator, click on go. It will come up with error, ignore the notice as it is stupid, erase what nonsense is on it, and replace this with your url address and click go as you normally would. Sorry Charles Charles, I was able to see the article under: service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,427043,00.html
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Post by Jaga on Jul 17, 2006 12:27:07 GMT -7
Pieter, referring to collateral damage - theer are about 20 dead on Israeli site and about 170 in Lebanon. here is a fragment of the article recommended by Charles: Nevertheless, hatred for Israel grows with each day, as Israeli fighter jets launch ever more ferocious bombing attacks on targets in Beirut and southern Lebanon, destroying bridges and roads, and as television stations broadcast close-up images of bloody corpses disfigured by shrapnel. Many Lebanese already sympathize with the Shiite militia for having liberated southern Lebanon in its struggle against Israeli occupation. "The resistance must continue," says Joseph Samaha, editor-in-chief of Lebanese newspaper Al-Akhbar. He sees Hezbollah mainly "as an important military deterrent against Israel." The Lebanese people are split into two camps. "The one half wants Hezbollah to continue existing as a military force against Israel," says Beirut political scientist Nizar Hamza, "and the other half wants to see it disarmed and turned into a purely political entity."Hezbollah has also acquired a positive reputation as a social movement, operating its own schools and hospitals and paying pensions to the families of fallen fighters. Its strength is evident in the speed with which the portion of the population that supports the group is able to mobilize. Only a few weeks ago, angry supporters staged violent protests in the streets of Beirut after a television station had dared to poke fun at Sheikh Nasrallah with a cartoon it had aired. When the two Israeli soldiers were abducted last Wednesday, cheering Hezbollah supporters marched through the streets of the capital's southern suburbs, a sort of special zone populated mainly by devout Shiites and largely controlled by the Islamists. As it normally does on holidays, Hezbollah handed out sweets to the population. Hezbollah's power The abduction of the two Israeli soldiers has helped Hezbollah leader Nasrallah curry favor among many Shiites, who believe he is capable of securing the release of fellow Muslims in Israeli prisons, as he did two years ago. "My family and I are happy," says journalist Bassam Kuntar, 28, referring to the Hezbollah kidnappings. "Perhaps the day is now coming when I will finally be able to embrace my brother." service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,427043,00.html
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Post by hollister on Jul 17, 2006 12:49:12 GMT -7
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Post by bescheid on Jul 17, 2006 13:12:17 GMT -7
{Charles, I was able to see the article under: service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,427043,00.html[/quote} Jaga Ok, that is good, all is well. Incompetence is some thing I simply hate, and with a url that is so stubborn is incomprehensible. I only do trust the information was of some value to your self and with others. Charles
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Post by sciwriter on Jul 17, 2006 13:59:34 GMT -7
IMO the American Empire is overreaching itself here. Its failure in Iraq is emblematic of its hubris, bad planning and total misunderstanding of the Arab world. Not unlike Britain's experience in the early 20th century.
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