piwo
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Post by piwo on Jul 17, 2006 15:39:06 GMT -7
My husband just told me that in American TV it was said that Israel "entered" Lebanon. Nice word does not sound so bad - just like during WW II Hitler "entered" Poland Exept that the Nazi's entered Poland with massive groundforces too, and killed more civilians and Polish soldiers than the Israeli's did in one week. The Nazi's lead an extermination war in Poland, aiming at deliberately killing as many people as possible. The Israeli's want to hit Hezbollah headquarters, the Lebanese army's communication and radar stations and baraks, infrastructure and industries and powerplants, not deliberately civilian targets. There is a lot of collateral damage on both sides, and the war lords of both side won't stop. Hezbollah started it, but nobody stopped them in the Arab world. Nobody dared to unarm Hezbollah and limitize it's power. And I know that many Lebanese wanted and want an end to the Syrian influence in Lebanon. Hezbollah is the Syrian influence in Lebanon, Irans stronghold in the North of the Middle east, and the first organisation that started with suicide bombings on American and French marines in the eightees. I know that America is very reluctant to intervene in Lebanon, because of that. They have their hands full of Iraq and Afghanistan. That's the reason America backs Israel. The USA simply does not want to get involved. If America gets involved Syria is the next target. I am sure of that. Pieter, Save your breathe explaining to Jaga. When she see's a those evil Jews responding for ground forces attacking their soil, it's just Jewish over reaction. If Bill Clinton was PM of Israel, she'd volunteer for the worthy cause herself!
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piwo
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Post by piwo on Jul 17, 2006 15:45:43 GMT -7
IMO the American Empire is overreaching itself here. Its failure in Iraq is emblematic of its hubris, bad planning and total misunderstanding of the Arab world. Not unlike Britain's experience in the early 20th century. like death and taxes we can always count on your tunnel vision version of America's culpability for all the worlds ills. The planets align yet once again. Best Regards
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Post by sciwriter on Jul 17, 2006 17:56:17 GMT -7
Piwo, tunnel vision? I think America needs a change in strategy in the Mideast. It should consider supporting techno-intellectuals in Mideast who will help their societies develop versatile economies and end their own dependence on only one industry--oil production. Carl
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Post by sciwriter on Jul 17, 2006 19:15:01 GMT -7
MOSCOW NEWS www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2006/07/18/001.html Tuesday, July 18, 2006. Page 1. Print | Close Text size: Aa Aa Aa Moscow May Send Troops to Lebanon By Nabi Abdullaev Staff Writer President Vladimir Putin said Monday that Russia would consider contributing troops to an international peacekeeping force in the Middle East if the United Nations Security Council decided to deploy such a force. "No decision has been made on sending peacekeeping troops," Putin said during a final press conference at the Group of Eight summit in his native St. Petersburg. "When a decision is made, we will consider whether or not to take part." G8 leaders issued a joint statement Monday devoted to the ongoing conflict between Israel, Hezbollah guerillas located in Lebanon and the Hamas-led Palestinian government in Gaza. The statement called for an end to the shelling of Israeli territory and for the release of three captured Israeli servicemen. Hezbollah guerrillas captured two Israeli soldiers last week and killed eight civilians in raids from southern Lebanon. A third soldier was captured in a raid from Gaza on June 25. Israel was called upon to halt military operations in Lebanon and Gaza and to withdraw early from the Gaza Strip. U.S. President George W. Bush has made clear that he sides with Israel in the ongoing conflict, and he removed all doubt Monday when he let slip a frank assessment of Hezbollah and Syria, which supports the militant Islamist group. "See the irony is that what they need to do is get Syria and to get Hezbollah to stop doing this nuts and it's over," The Associated Press quoted Bush as saying during a photo opportunity with British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Bush was apparently unaware that his words were being picked up by a microphone. Bush told Blair that he favored asking UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who was present at the G8 summit, to call Syrian President Bashar Assad to "make something happen," the AP reported. Putin said Monday that "Russia regularly takes part in peacekeeping operations, and we are not refusing to participate in such operations in the future." He said the G8 would ask the UN Security Council to consider sending a peacekeeping force into Lebanon. Putin also emphasized Russia's potential influence in brokering a resolution to the Middle East crisis because of its willingness to engage with all parties in the region, including Iran and Hamas. "If we were to label some countries as terrorist states, we would sever all contact with them," Putin said. "Would that be in Israel's interest? I don't think so. So our policy is and will remain balanced." Putin added that the G8 plan for bringing an end to the fighting in the Middle East would have been less balanced without Russia's participation. The president also told an Israeli journalist that Russia was pursuing all options to secure the release of the soldiers captured by Hezbollah. "I have reason to believe that our efforts have not been in vain," he said. With its vast network of connections in the Arab world, a legacy of the Soviet era, and the renewed global influence it enjoys because of its vast energy reserves, Russia can only benefit from getting involved in international efforts to resolve problems such as the conflict in the Middle East, said Fyodor Lukyanov, a political analyst and editor of Russia in Global Affairs magazine. "By cooperating with the major world powers to solve global problems, Moscow will have an easier time obtaining concessions that will allow it to deal with what it views as 'domestic' issues, such as the standoff with Georgia," Lukyanov said. Meanwhile, the Foreign Ministry announced Monday that it had begun evacuating Russian citizens from the conflict zone, as civilian casualties mounted on all sides. More than 1,400 Russian citizens in Lebanon and another 75 in Gaza were waiting to be evacuated on Monday, the ministry said. RIA-Novosti reported that 36 Russians had crossed the border from Gaza to Israel and then proceeded to the Jordanian capital, Amman, where they expected to be flown to Russia on a plane provided by the Emergency Situations Ministry. The Foreign Ministry established an operational headquarters in Moscow on Monday to coordinate the evacuation effort. No Russian casualties had been reported in the region as of Monday afternoon. Foreign Ministry spokesman Andrei Krivtsov said Monday that the Russian Embassy in Beirut was gathering information about the whereabouts of Russian citizens in Lebanon and informing them about the evacuation. Most Russians in the area had already been contacted, he said. Evacuation from Beirut became more complicated after the Israeli air force destroyed a landing strip at Beirut airport last week. Many foreigners are likely to be evacuated by sea, Russian media speculated Monday. Some 40 Russian tourists in Lebanon had been evacuated by their tour companies Monday, said Irina Tyurina, a spokeswoman for the Russian Tourist Industry Union.
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piwo
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Post by piwo on Jul 17, 2006 20:13:26 GMT -7
Piwo, tunnel vision? I think America needs a change in strategy in the Mideast. It should consider supporting techno-intellectuals in Mideast who will help their societies develop versatile economies and end their own dependence on only one industry--oil production. Carl Carl, I agree America could have a better strategy in the Middle East: this holds true for many decades. Then in the end, Muslims are bent on destruction of everything not Muslim. Seems there is some religious belief that makes it OK. Not unlike the crusades perhaps. God said it’s OK, so we can kill everyone else, and enjoy all the free sex in the afterlife for our reward….. As for the rest of your comments: “techno-intellectuals” and societies helping break their dependencies.... sorry I'm not savvy to your avant-garde vernacular. Sounds like a lot of verbiage to me. Guess I'll have to enroll in a current history course to learn the latest jargon. Which of these Middle Eastern economies do you specifically laud for their forward thinking by the by? Seems that the only ones we hear about are the classic radical fundamentalist Muslims bent on killing everyone not Muslim, or the corrupt Sheikdoms who rely on nothing but oil for their wealth and further suppress their people. And for the record, I’m not being glib here or presenting a challenge. I’m just responding to what I read. Middle Eastern economies are not a strong suite for me, and I rely primarily on main stream media. How odd: I don't believe even 10% of what the mainstream media says because of their tenacious liberal bias, and Jaga apparently only gets FOX news on her TV because she can quote who said what on FOX 24X7.. Life is indeed funny. Well, not totally funny because the Middle East is really heating up. There are those who believe the Third World War actually started in the late 1970's by Muslim extremists. Maybe, maybe not. Only time, and maybe not that much time in the end. 100% of my very soul is convinced many of you really don't care, so long as you can blame it on someone not associated with you're political party of choice, or on the USA specifically. It is an old, worn out record that plays over and over................. Does anyone truly believe the Muslim insurrection around the world is just going to “go away” irregardless of what the USA does in the Middle East? If you do, you’ve been drinking the cool aid. When will be the time to confront this in the same manner that the Muslims do? Or will you merely surrender your culture, nation and future to be "progressive"?
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Post by pieter on Jul 18, 2006 5:12:44 GMT -7
Piwo,
I live in a differant reality than America, because Islam is more visible and lively present in my country and the rest of Europe. And they are very pluriform, from the very enlightened Alawi movement, and secular Turks, liberal-, conservative-, and progressive Turks, Maroccans and Algerians to extreme orthodox or radical Islamic groups, with views like the Sauoudi Wahabi or Algerian Salafist sects in the Sunni Islam. Next to that you have Surinamese Muslims, who came originally from India together with the Hindu contract workers that went to the English and Dutch colonies of South-America and the Caribean (Trinidad, British Guyana, and etc.) You have the Somali's, Bosnian Muslims, Kosovo Albanian muslims (Pro-American), Tunesians, Syrians, Lebanese, Pakistani, Indonesians (a large group in the Netherlands and Suriname), Iranians, Lybians, Afghans and even Chechens. Islam is part of our European political reality and the political process, and will play even a more important role in the near future in Europe, when the Muslim minorities will grow, and there will be European conversions. In the same time religious (Protestant, Catholic and Jewish) and secular (liberal and conservative) opposition is growing towards the increasing influence of the differant versions of islam on our European societies. The fear was always that the tentions of the Middle-East might blow over to the European continent where parts of the Muslim youth and adult Muslim population identify themselves with the Palestines, and a small part with the Wahabi- and Salafist extremists in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Saoudi-Arabia, Algeria, India's Kasmir and Chechenia. Our army was in Iraq and is present in Afghanistan right now, so we are involved. And we delivered soldiers to Unifil in Southern-Lebanon for decades. Thursday evening there will be a Pro-Israeli demonstration in Amsterdam, and later there will be an anti-Israeli demonstration in Amsterdam in the weekend too. I am glad that I can view and read the standpoints of Israël, America, Lebanon, Syria, Europe (EU), Russia, the United nations and the Jewish diaspora too. I even saw a Communist demonstration against the Israeli military actions in Gaza and Lebanon in Tel Aviv. It is tiresom that you see the standard reaction of the old oponents over and over again. The Syrians speak of the Zionist state terror, and ask the Arab and Muslim world to unite against the enemy. Nasrallah saying that now is the time "to finish the Zionist enemy once and for all". And the echo of that from the Israeli's, "we will demolish Hezbollah". I am afraid Israel alianates itself from it's Lebanese allies, the christians, because it attacks christian area's too. Only a large ground operation will be able to totally dismantle the Hezbollah terrorist infrastructure.
Pieter
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Post by pieter on Jul 18, 2006 5:49:42 GMT -7
The Germans have finally waken up and move away from their soft, multi-cultural standpoint which the corporatist Socia-democrats and Christian-democrats maintained for decades. The Germans (like the Dutch, French, Belgians and British) see that their integration policies have failed, that they have been to tolerant. So tolerant, that many Muslim minorities did not integrated in the German culture, society and language. You get ethnic enclaves in Germany (parts of cities) that became Turkish or Arab, like the Turkish Kreuzberg and Arab Neuköln in Berlin and simular situations in other large German cities. In Köln (Cologne) there was even a criminal ethnic civil war between Arab and Turkish gangsters (armed conflicts Gaza stile). French subburbs with Algerians and British subburbs with Pakistani are already out of control. And when politicians or thinkers said something about that, naming as it was they were called biased, discriminatory, Xenophobe or racist. Always when there was something wrong, such as gangviolence, dammage to public and private property, it were not the guys who did it were the Bad guys, no the French or British politicians, society and the "native" people were the guilty ones. That there was something wrong in the migrant communities, that fathers lost control and sons became gang members or radicalized Fundementalists, that these guys behaved themselves badly to the women of the country they are guests (they were given the opportunity to come there as guest workers) and other civilians was not witnessed by the political correct elite, who believed in Multi-culturalism, that the differant cultures could live peaceful toghether, next to eachother. The large masses of working class and middle class never accepted that, and wanted to keep their original European culture, traditions, customs, language, dialects, regional habbits and identity. The European populations got alienated from their political leadership and societies, because parts of their territory was taken by aliens in their eyes. They did not understand the newcommers and could not understand why these people suddenly became the majority in their neighbourhoods, and began to act dominant, controlling their territory and behaving hostile towards the original inhabitants. Okay the hostility started in the seventees and eightees by some far right, Xenophobe elements in the European, Caucasian communities, but in the late ninetees and early years of this decade, even moderate, progressive academical types in the Multi-cultural neigbourhoods started to change after the street terror of North-African and Carebean youth. People of all sorts of life understood that there was something wrong when political assasinations (Fortyun and Van Gogh) started and life threats against politicians (Salman Rushdie stile) became common. Our country changed and our Europe with it. The Centre-left and radical left dreamt on of their Multi-cultural Utopia, while Centre-right and right political movements knew and said waht was going on. Stop showing pitty for those immigrants, who were hugged for to lang, had got to much subsisdies to create their own structures, movements and territories. Both left and right had dreamt for decades and finaly saw what was going on. We had alien ethnic enclaves in our cities and so in our countries. Places we had no control over anymore. France, Brittian and Germany is worse than The Netherlands and Belgium, but we will move towards France if we don't watch out. A sign on the wall is that nobody dares to give fundamental critisizm on Islam, to joke about it or make it a subject of public debate. After Van Goghs murder all the comedians, public thinkers, columnists, journalists and the few important intellectuals went silent, afraid as they were for their lives. The only real critic, Ayaan Hirsi Ali left the country.
If nothing changes we will have Middle-Eastern circumstances here in the near future, because both sides are not willing to accept eachother easily. This week I read and heard that the mood in Germany is changing, and that the German government and opposition was taking a tougher stanpoint towards their migrant communities, like their population. It was about time that this happened. I like Germany when it stays Germany, not when it will change in Turkestan.
Pieter
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Post by Jaga on Jul 18, 2006 7:02:03 GMT -7
Pieter, Save your breathe explaining to Jaga. When she see's a those evil Jews responding for ground forces attacking their soil, it's just Jewish over reaction. If Bill Clinton was PM of Israel, she'd volunteer for the worthy cause herself! Piwo, I do not understand your comments. I do not think that the mIddle East situation can be explained in black (terrorists) and white (Israel) colors as FoxNews would like to. What enemy ground forces were deployed in Israel? You know that these Arabs have no chance to win any confrontation with Israel supplied by America. As for Clinton - I defend him because he was a good president. He was not a murderer like my father in law thinks.
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piwo
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Post by piwo on Jul 18, 2006 9:07:36 GMT -7
Pieter, Save your breathe explaining to Jaga. When she see's a those evil Jews responding for ground forces attacking their soil, it's just Jewish over reaction. If Bill Clinton was PM of Israel, she'd volunteer for the worthy cause herself! Piwo, I do not understand your comments. I do not think that the mIddle East situation can be explained in black (terrorists) and white (Israel) colors as FoxNews would like to. What enemy ground forces were deployed in Israel? You know that these Arabs have no chance to win any confrontation with Israel supplied by America. As for Clinton - I defend him because he was a good president. He was not a murderer like my father in law thinks. Hezbollah did inflitrate Israel with soldiers, and fled. They did fire rockets into Hailfa. If you can't find that on FOX news, you can probably find it even on your mainstream stations, if your TV can get them. I care not that the Arabs that invaded Israel have no chance to win, the fact that they attack are grounds enough to defend. I honestly don't understand your thought process. When Bill Clinton changed the Somali humanitary relief effort into a Military Operation by attempting to disarm the "technicals", I'm sure he felt they had no chance of winning either. Ever see "blackhawk down"? Of course, they didn't show the "technicals' dragging a mutlilated soldier around by a jeep for fun and amusement, but it's based on that story. Bill Clinton was to you a good president, and to me a bad president. He governed by watching the polls and not moving until he thought he would be doing something a majority might want. But that is not leadership, it's cowardice. He sold out America by handing over technology to China, who now has the ability to deliver nuclear weapons to mainland USA because it. He and AL GOre were on the China payroll, accepting money EVEN in the White house in violation of Federal Law. His first 4 years in office he passed two pieces of legislation that he pushed: the biggest tax increase in USA history, and the so called Omnibus crime bill. Even though he had a 200+ seat majority in the house and a 6 seat majority in the Senate, they barely passed the house, and both only passed in the senate by Al Gore's tie breaking vote. Even his own party rejected him: only the soccer moms trade unions and minorities voted for him. One cause they "thought he was soooo cute", one cause they were told to by their unions, and one cause one doesn't bite the hand of who's giving the handouts. Sad but true. But this gets us off topic... Why is it people make excuses for every act of islamic violence, and condemn as Over-reaction when somebody defends itself? Pieter's insight into the Muslim's in Germany is no different here, or to the illegal alieans that cross ouir border. They don't want to be Americans either: they want my tax dollars to pay for their social services, they want special treatment, they want jobs, and they want to maintain their active support of only their native homeland. But no, we should break our country's bank by providing for them all....... The insanity of this is impossible for me to reconcile.
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Post by sciwriter on Jul 18, 2006 9:27:07 GMT -7
Piwo, I'm referring to people in the Mideast who understand the latest computerized technologies used in business, health care, etc., as in India. I think they, not the Islamic fanatics, should be in the forefront in the Mideast. For example, Bashar Al Assad, President of Syria, is an ophthalmologist: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashar_al-AssadIt would be great if he would work with other opthalmologists in managing affordable eye care centers in Mideast. Carl
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Post by pieter on Jul 18, 2006 11:50:53 GMT -7
Sciwriter, Piwo and Jaga,
It is a hard time for me and people in the region, because I feal sympathy for both Israël and parts of Lebanon. Exept from Hezbollah, and the Palestinian branches of the Fatah Al Aqsa martyr brigades, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, DFLP Lebanon was a fairly Moderate Arab state, with many christians (39%), Druze, Armenians, Alawites, relatively moderate Suni muslims and moderate Shia muslims too. The Christian population is quite diverse, the biggest group are the Maronite Catholic christians, and next to that group you have Greek Orthodox, Melkite Catholics, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholics, Armenian Catholics, Syrian Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Chaldeans, Assyrians, Copts and Protestants. The problems in Lebanon started in the seventees, because of the presence of the PLO and other palestinian fractions in Lebanon and confrontations that started between the Palestinians and the Lebanese Christians. Both sides were cruel, and the massacres were terrible.
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Post by pieter on Jul 18, 2006 13:23:42 GMT -7
Statement by the Christian Lebanese Nationalist The Guardians of the Cedars.
Pieter
The Guardians of the Cedars issued the following communiqué:
The unfolding situation in Lebanon today is the natural outcome of mistaken policies adopted by successive Lebanese governments since 1990 to this date. Those governments relinquished their constitutional prerogatives to the benefit of an illegitimate militia to whom it surrendered the south of the country, provided all manner of political, logistical and moral support, and granted the key to the decision of war and peace, and consequently to decide the fate of the country according to that militia’s own private political agenda, the interests of the militia’s regional allies and against the highest interests of the Lebanese nation.
Therefore, there are three parties which bear responsibility, jointly and severally, for the destruction being visited on Lebanon today: The illegitimate militia itself, those successive governments, and the Syrian regime that has imposed this deadly political program on Lebanon that became, with time and up to the very recent past, one of the foundations of the ruling political regime in Lebanon.
For the government to say that it had no prior knowledge of Hezbollah’s latest operation does not exonerate the government of responsibility, first because this militia-party is a member of the government; second, because it is an integral party to the national dialogue; and third, because the government declined to publicly and unambiguously support UN resolution 1559, refraining from implementing it when that was possible to do so under a Lebanese banner, and diluting its momentum until it became intractable.
The Lebanese people are extremely worried about their future, and are asking many questions as they watch with their own eyes the earthquake that is destroying their country and its infrastructure, leaving behind hundreds of dead and injured: Until when is Lebanon going to be a free-for-all for settling the scores of others on its soil? Will the government use this moment to make a bold move towards exercising its authority over the south, the Palestinian camps and all the other outlaw wastelands, and recover the decision-making of peace and war? Who will compensate Lebanon for the economic losses, including the summer season? Will it be Syria or Iran? Or the Lebanese citizen whose livelihood is below the poverty line and is no longer able to provide sustenance for his or her children?
The Lebanese people are ready, in spite of everything, to sustain these sacrifices on one condition: The State must regain its standing and eliminate once and for all this anomaly of the duality of power and decision-making. It must hold all its citizens to the same measure under the rule of law. It must proceed to implementing all clauses of UN resolution 1559. Because to do otherwise is to squander all these sacrifices and, God forbid, return Lebanon to the cycle of violence and destruction.
Lebanon, at your service
Abu Arz July 15, 2006
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Post by Jaga on Jul 18, 2006 13:47:35 GMT -7
Sciwriter, Piwo and Jaga, It is a hard time for me and people in the region, because I feal sympathy for both Israël and parts of Lebanon. Exept from Hezbollah, and the Palestinian branches of the Fatah Al Aqsa martyr brigades, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, DFLP Lebanon was a fairly Moderate Arab state, with many christians (39%), Druze, Armenians, Alawites, relatively moderate Suni muslims and moderate Shia muslims too. The Christian population is quite diverse, the biggest group are the Maronite Catholic christians, and next to that group you have Greek Orthodox, Melkite Catholics, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholics, Armenian Catholics, Syrian Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Chaldeans, Assyrians, Copts and Protestants. The problems in Lebanon started in the seventees, because of the presence of the PLO and other palestinian fractions in Lebanon and confrontations that started between the Palestinians and the Lebanese Christians. Both sides were cruel, and the massacres were terrible. Pieter, Piwo I am not trying to defend extreme muslims. Frankly, if I would meet Israeli soldier in the field I would worry less than Hazbollah fighter But I worry that the problems there are more complex. I understand that Israel was worrying about Hezbollah on its boarder. I actually heard the views that they deliberately started this conflict to make sure that Hezbollah would fire majority of its rockets and then it would not have any. I think, without being grown in the Middle Easte we may have also a hard time to understand these people - on both sites. I still do not believe that Israel has rights to demolish the infrastructure of Lebanon - and I do not believe that Lebanese people like what it is done to them. Of course one cannot blame just Israel - Hezbollah built its power there - still - there are probably other ways to solve conflicts... maybe not - this is Middle East. Personally, I do not believe that there are countries that have more rights than the other - like the US, Russia or Israel.
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Post by pieter on Jul 18, 2006 16:06:39 GMT -7
Sciwriter, Piwo and Jaga, It is a hard time for me and people in the region, because I feal sympathy for both Israël and parts of Lebanon. Exept from Hezbollah, and the Palestinian branches of the Fatah Al Aqsa martyr brigades, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, DFLP Lebanon was a fairly Moderate Arab state, with many christians (39%), Druze, Armenians, Alawites, relatively moderate Suni muslims and moderate Shia muslims too. The Christian population is quite diverse, the biggest group are the Maronite Catholic christians, and next to that group you have Greek Orthodox, Melkite Catholics, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholics, Armenian Catholics, Syrian Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Chaldeans, Assyrians, Copts and Protestants. The problems in Lebanon started in the seventees, because of the presence of the PLO and other palestinian fractions in Lebanon and confrontations that started between the Palestinians and the Lebanese Christians. Both sides were cruel, and the massacres were terrible. Pieter, Piwo I am not trying to defend extreme muslims. Frankly, if I would meet Israeli soldier in the field I would worry less than Hazbollah fighter But I worry that the problems there are more complex. I understand that Israel was worrying about Hezbollah on its boarder. I actually heard the views that they deliberately started this conflict to make sure that Hezbollah would fire majority of its rockets and then it would not have any. I think, without being grown in the Middle Easte we may have also a hard time to understand these people - on both sites. I still do not believe that Israel has rights to demolish the infrastructure of Lebanon - and I do not believe that Lebanese people like what it is done to them. Of course one cannot blame just Israel - Hezbollah built its power there - still - there are probably other ways to solve conflicts... maybe not - this is Middle East. Personally, I do not believe that there are countries that have more rights than the other - like the US, Russia or Israel. Jaga, Thank you for your response and showing your point of view. From a Western democratic point of view we have sometimes differant opinions. But unlike many Middle eastern countries we respect eachothers views, instaid of being intolerant or smashing eachothers heads or shooting at eachother. After reading a lot about lebanons history and the involvement of it's neigbours, nobody has clean hands, and every ethnic group or party has fought and joyned forces with every other group. The Christians were not less evil than the Muslims in Lebanon, reading about their war crimes against Palestinians and Muslims in the seventees and eightees. But exsactly the same is the case with Palestinians who massacred Christians in Lebanese villages and towns, and opressed the Shia population in the South of Lebanon in the seventees and eightees, when they had a sort of PLO state in a state on Shia Southern-Lebanese soil. And that's why the first large Shia militia fought against the Palestinians, like Christians before them, backed by the Syrians, who never liked a strong presence of Sunni Muslim power (Palestinians are Sunni muslims) near their border. You can read that earlier the Syrians backed the Lebanese Christian Maronites against the Muslim militia's in the seventees, who were supported in the same time by Syria's arch rival Israel. Many of the Syrian and Palestinian christians are Pro-Syrian, because Syria has a Secular Baath party regime and opposes the Sunni Moslem Brotherhood, who is powerful in many Arab countries with a Sunni majority. 90% of the worlds Muslims are Sunni, and only 10% of all the Muslims are Shia. The Elite of the Syrian Military based Baath party regime is of the minority group of Alawites, while the vast majority of Syrians are Sunni Muslims (78%). Syria so is always trying to find a ballance in the regional power structures, and is worried about it's enemies within it's own territories and abroad. Syria's enemies are Israel, El Fatah (PLO), the Anti-Syrian front in Lebanon of Christians, Sunni's and Shia's, the Moslem Brotherhood, Egypt, Jordan, America, France, Great-Britain, Saoudi-Arabia, the civilian Iraq branch of the Baath party (Saddam Husseins party) and others. Syria's direct allies are Iran, Hezbollah, Pro-Syrian Lebanese Christian fractions, Pro-Syrian radical left Palestinians fractions and ofcourse Hamas, and indirect allies are Russia and maybe China and North-Korea (?). Pieter
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Post by Jaga on Jul 19, 2006 21:18:29 GMT -7
Bill Clinton was to you a good president, and to me a bad president. He governed by watching the polls and not moving until he thought he would be doing something a majority might want. Piwo, you know better than me that under Clinton - there was a surplus - not a big debt which is right now, the economy was very high, unemployment very low and there was no war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Telling that.... Clinton was watching the polls is a bit funny It is as like saying that everybody who is popular - is popular because he wants to be popular but a person who is seen by majority negatively is actually better than the popular one.... because it does not watch the polls I am sure you see a strange logic here As for Clinton doing everything for majority I cannot agree. He tried to force the free health care for everybody but the majority of Congress was not ready for it. He did it in spite of the fact that the support in the Congress was low (since Congressmen have much better healthplans than any of us anyways). I do not want to defend or oppose his health plan, I just wanted to tell you that Clinton was able to get against the crowd. he was smart and determined. As for China - globalism cannot be blamed on Clinton and any other president in that matter.
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