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Post by freetobe on Jan 25, 2008 21:05:49 GMT -7
Idea for publicizing post war Polish atrocities against Jews and counter point the extermination of millions of non Jewish Poles. A source for the counter point could be "The Labyrinth of Dangerous Hours", A Memoir of the Second World War by Lilka Trzcinska-Croydon. Excellent re-telling of her family's capture and imprisonment in Auschwitz. The Trzccinski family were Catholics. This book only accounts for about 75,000 deaths, so perhaps some one can come up the rest of the millions.
Have all interested members track down Roman Polanski (Mike can help with this) and suggest that this is a great subject for a movie. Am not sure Roman would be "fair and balanced" in his presentation but we could insist that Pieter or another prolific writer compose the screenplay. Pawian could serve as historical consultant and keep Roman honest. Mike is head of security and at the completion of the project will be allowed to capture Roman and return him to the U.S. to face the music. The film will premiere in Idaho Falls and be introduced by Jaga. It will be a gala event followed by a pot luck party at Jaga's featuring Polish food. The invited guests must bring their favorite Polish dish
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Post by holaola on Jan 26, 2008 3:10:39 GMT -7
What can we do to help bring this out to the public. All should know, and we need tell them, but how? Does any one have a idea? It's easy enough: films, TV serials and books - then some more books, more films, and more TV serials. In English and perhaps Spanish. By the way, in the "Band of Brothers" TV serial during the episode where the soldiers discover a concentration camp there is actual mention that the inmates were mostly Jews, Poles and Gypsies! Just once, but there you are. It can be done. There is also a book about German women's experiences during WWII where a German prisoner in a concentration camps says that the worst treatment was meted out to Jews and Poles. But we cannot rely on others nationalities to do our work - we must do this ourselves. And above all in English - and with some sort of artistic sense. Truth - our truth - must go hand in hand with aesthetics.
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Post by valpomike on Jan 26, 2008 8:12:59 GMT -7
holaola,
You did say things that can be done, but what can we, ourselfs, do to help with this? I can't make a movie, or even write a book on this, but we do need them. Let's all try and work on this, don't just wait for the next guy do it, it won't be done. I will do my share, when I find out what to do.
Michael Dabrowski
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Post by holaola on Jan 26, 2008 16:09:37 GMT -7
valpomike,
The first thing to do is gather information - not big, important dates, of course, because we know those. What we need is information from the ordinary people who lived through the events or who heard of them from their family etc.
The basis for information gathering is: Who, What, When, Why, Where - the same as that for journalists.
When interviewing old people it is best to use a Dictaphone to tape their voices. Old people tend to like this approach more than having to write their memories down on paper.
It is useful for the interviewer to have at least a little knowledge of the period to prod old people's memories when they suddenly "dry up", so the interviewer should make a list of subjects s/he would like to know more about.
I have a feeling that once there is a solid data base, things can start building from there.
Another thing that should be noted is "What did it (the place, the clothing, the item) look like" - this adds colour to every story.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Feb 1, 2008 14:04:08 GMT -7
In effect this is the first time everyone everywhere can have a say in these matters, thanks to technology. It is never too late to straighten out the facts and their details even if this is for one reason alone: half a truth is, ultimately, a lie. Very queer reasoning. So, when Gross doesn`t try to explain Polish murderers`s behaviour, just leaves it like that and relates cold facts only, does it mean he is lying? You have the right to be amazed. I have the right to be bored. Well, to be frank, I should have used the word "uninterested." So, whenever there is a new thread in the forum called " War memories of Stanisław Brzęczyszczykiewicz," I quit. I have had enough of it during my lifetime. If you were a careful reader, you could have found my explanation on it in previous posts. In short: I got stuffed with Polish martyrology during communist era and that`s enough. I am much more interested in recent Polish achievements. I like to discuss the way that Poles fought communism. I admire the sacrifice of those fallen during the fight. Have you ever been to "Interesting History?" jagahost.proboards79.com/index.cgi?board=history&action=display&thread=1183578636It is a typical cheap Polish sentimentalism which I have always tried to avoid. It is so bombastically pathetic that I refuse to comment on it. I have every right to have such an opinion. As a Pole, I remember all the Polish sacrifice and victims. But I don`t want to deal with it over and over again. Do you think that Poles have nothing else to do but bathe in their war martyrology every day? Yes, some try to do it but they are crazy. Yet, the title was attractive enough to draw your attention and provoke you to post here quite often. hahahahaha I have no idea what you mean now. [/quote]
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Feb 1, 2008 14:39:19 GMT -7
Poland’s history is quite unique and should be better known. What is truly shocking is that some people are bored with it. What can I say apart from: “I’m amazed!” So many young people gave their lives for a free Poland, so many young people died in horrific ways for a free Poland, so many young people never lived to fulfil their hopes and ambitions – all for a free Poland! And to hear that people who are supposedly intelligent say they are actually bored by discussions about this immense sacrifice, is stunning. Talk about “Little Polish controversies”!!!! What could be more controversial than that? It is very funny how another foreign Pole is amazed at my opinions. hahahahahaha It seems that Poles born abroad have problems with accepting certain attitudes which are more frequent in today`s Poland but probably still very rare among Polonia. They imagine themselves better patriots when they remember and honour the Polish victims, the contribution of blood, failed dreams, fallen hopes and incredible but futile sacrifice. Their panteon of Polish heroes goes like that: Kościuszko Warsaw Little Insurgent... and other insurgents and more freedom fighters who lost their fight. I am a patriot too, but my heroes are different. I am fed up with this constant Polish whining, with all those fallen heroes who first acted and then thought and the only pathetic contribution they made was their noble death. My pantheon consist of people of this sort: Maria Skłodowska Curie, a scientist, Noble Prize winner Ignacy Łukasiewicz, invented an oil lamp Wisława Szymborska, a poet, Nobel prize winner Leopold Zamenhof, a Polish Jew who created Esperanto. Solidarity and all people who peacefully fought communism and won! Apart from this, I patriotically pay my taxes. hahahahhahhahahhaha
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Post by Pawian on Feb 1, 2008 14:59:14 GMT -7
What happened at the beginning of the 20th Century accentuated the problems, however: the Jews were active in the rising socialist movements and the first Socialist Party in Russia was in fact the General Jewish Workers’ League of Lithuania, Poland and Russia (which led to the Mensheviks and the Bolsheviks.) Now the Poles were aware of this involvement Isn`t that obvious that Jews, after they met with hostility from their catholic or orthodox neighbours, longed for another system in which all people would be equal, irrespective of their sex, race or ethnic origin, religion or belief??? How about changing the roles: If only Poles weren`t so hostile to Jews before the war! Bench ghetto A form of discrimination against minority students in which they were forced to sit in designated benches of university lecture halls. Polish nationalist groups had demanded that university authorities adopt this policy, and that the parliament introduce the principle of numerus clausus (1923) or numerus nullus (1935). These policies were aimed above all against Jewish students, and, in Lwow, also against Ukrainians. In 1935, the Lwow Polytechnic was the first to introduce a "bench ghetto"; by 1937, most rectors at the other institutions of higher learning had done so as well, a move that had been approved by the Ministry of Religious Faiths and Public Education. Jewish students' indexes (student identification document where grades are also recorded) began to be marked with the word "Jewish". Jewish students protested these policies, along with a few Poles supporting them, by refusing to occupy the places on the benches, choosing to stand during lectures instead. A few professors also showed their support, including the philosopher T. Kotarbinski (1886-1981). How about changing the roles: If only Poles weren`t so indifferent or even brutal towards Jews during the war! www.geocities.com/shebreshin/extermination.html"Diary from the Years of Occupation 1939-1944" Excerpts October 22, 1942 The action against Jews continues. The only difference is that the SS has moved out and the job is now in the hands of our own local gendarmes and the "blue police". They received orders to kill all the Jews, and they are obeying them. In town some Jewish houses were sealed by the gendarmes, but others were left completly open, so robberies took place. It is a shame to say it but some Polish people took part in that crime. Some people even helped the gendarmes look for hidden Jews.
October 23, 1942 ................. While I was gone, the gestapo, local gendarmes, "blue police", and some street people in Szczebrzeszyn again started the hunt for Jews. Particulary active was Matysiak, a policeman from Sulow, and Skorzak, a city janitor. Skorzak had no gun, only an ax, and with the ax he killed several Jews. The whole day people hunted and killed Jews, while others brought corps to the cemetery for burial.
October 24, 1942 In Szczebrzeszyn the hunt for Jews is still on. Additional gestapo agents came from Bilgoraj. With the help of gendarmes, "blue police", and some citizens they looked everywhere for Jews. All cellars, attics, and barns were searched. Most Jews were killed on the spot, but some were taken to the Jewish cemetery for public execution. I witnessed a group of Jews being forced to march to the cemetery. On both sides of the prisoners marched gendarmes, "blue police", and so-called Polish guards dressed in black uniforms. To speed things up Jews were beaten on their heads and backs with wooden sticks. This was a terrible picture.
All the local scum turned out in the streets of town. Many horse-driven carts from the countryside arrived, and they all waited almost the whole day long for the moment when they could start plundering. News about some Poles behaving shamefully and looting abandoned Jewish flats was heard from different sources. Our locality will not lag behind in this respect
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Feb 1, 2008 15:12:50 GMT -7
Yes, that is well said. Poles felt betrayed by their Jewish neighbours. It will be better said to suggest that Jews first felt betrayed by their Polish neighbours. Now we arrived at a point: which was first - an egg or a hen? That is a myth. If you read more stuff on it, you would know that only highest headquarters had this Jewish overrepresentation. Lower ranks were occupied by Aryan Poles of low classes, mostly lumpenproletariat. Those who believe and repeat such "truths" distort the real truth.
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Post by Pawian on Feb 1, 2008 15:17:42 GMT -7
Gross' accusations are especially painful for a country that suffered a brutal five-year Nazi occupation that saw some six million Polish citizens - half of them Jews - killed. Some who attended the discussions complained that the suffering and death of some three million non-Jewish Poles, as well as the efforts of gentiles who tried to save Jews, receive only scant international attention. I hate these arguments. They are really stupifying. Gross is called a liar. Why? Because Germans killed not only Jews but also Poles? And there were a few thousand Poles who rescued a comparable number of Jews? Out of 3 million? And that`s enough to call his book "unjustified accusation"? This argumentation is very weird indeed.
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Feb 1, 2008 15:32:48 GMT -7
What can we do to help bring this out to the public. All should know, and we need tell them, but how? Does any one have a idea? It's easy enough: films, TV serials and books - then some more books, more films, and more TV serials. In English and perhaps Spanish. By the way, in the "Band of Brothers" TV serial during the episode where the soldiers discover a concentration camp there is actual mention that the inmates were mostly Jews, Poles and Gypsies! Just once, but there you are. It can be done. But we cannot rely on others nationalities to do our work - we must do this ourselves. And above all in English - and with some sort of artistic sense. Truth - our truth - must go hand in hand with aesthetics. Very naive thinking. Who is going to do it? The problem is that such artistic work was done years ago. The first Polish film about Auschwitz was made in 1947. The Last Stage (Pl. Ostatni etap) was a 1947 Polish feature film directed and co-written by Wanda Jakubowska, depicting her experiences in the Auschwitz concentration camp during World War II. The film is generally considered a reliable document for a number of reasons, not least because Jakubowska herself was imprisoned in the camp and because it was shot on location, before most of the camp was destroyed or converted into a memorial. Nevertheless, The Last Stage is an important film in that it paved the way for most other film and television depictions of the concentration camps and the Holocaust.
Here, another one from 1963 and there were many others. Today, Polish audience don`t wait for such films. They had enough for 50 years after the war. The only exception is made for films presenting once-taboo Polish martyrology in Soviet Russia - e.g., "Katyn."
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Post by livia on Feb 2, 2008 5:17:45 GMT -7
Their panteon of Polish heroes goes like that: Kościuszko , Warsaw Little Insurgent... and other insurgents and more freedom fighters who lost their fight. I am a patriot too, but my heroes are different. I am fed up with this constant and the only pathetic contribution they made was their noble death. My pantheon consist of people of this sort: Maria Skłodowska Curie, a scientist, Noble Prize winner Ignacy Łukasiewicz, invented an oil lamp Wisława Szymborska, a poet, Nobel prize winner Leopold Zamenhof, a Polish Jew who created Esperanto. Solidarity and all people who peacefully fought communism and won! Strange logic. If the Solidarity people failed they would NOT be in your private panthenon. Or maybe they would even be defamed as those who first acted and then thought. I don't know what do you call constant Polish whining with all those fallen heroes. I have seen nothing like that. You are concentrated on the fallen heroes but it doesn't mean Poland has no other heroes of military action who won. There's no need to put heroes of science and art here as there's no need to deliberate if one needs to wash left or right hand. One needs to wash both and one can wash both only. Or more clearly - if Poland had no military heroes , she would not have heroes of art and science. They or their parents, grandparent would be killed or turned German or Russian. There would be no Poland as a state and as a loyalty phenomenon. And if so ----> there would be no Poles and no Polish language. I can't explain my thoughts better, Pawian. And I beg you to re-evaluate your stance. I will open a thread about the unfallen Polish military heroes if you don't mind.
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Post by livia on Feb 2, 2008 5:21:22 GMT -7
Today, Polish audience don`t wait for such films. Yes I will turn sarcastic again. Lets give the audience only what they wait for. Dancing shows, big brother shows, comedy and soap-opera's .....
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Post by livia on Feb 2, 2008 5:28:24 GMT -7
Yes, that is well said. Poles felt betrayed by their Jewish neighbours. It will be better said to suggest that Jews first felt betrayed by their Polish neighbours. Now we arrived at a point: which was first - an egg or a hen? Yes very well said. The question should be posed even if there's no clear answer. That is exactly what I wrote. The Jews were 'overrepresented' in the highest ranks of communist secret service. The highest ranks usually give the orders to lower ranks, am I right? Plese read more attentively yourself before you recommend more reading. [
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Feb 2, 2008 6:09:06 GMT -7
Strange logic. If the Solidarity people failed they would NOT be in your private panthenon. Or maybe they would even be defamed as those who first acted and then thought. If an auntie had balls, she would be an uncle. hahahahahahaha Conclusion: don`t be so hypothetical. Oh, really? You live in Warsaw and you have seen nothing like that? hahahahaha Of course I am not. Quite the opposite. Why do you think so? hahahahaha Come on, discussing history isn`t like washing hands. In this way a German might say he needs to honour not only Stauffenberg but also Hitler himself. Both hands washed! hahahaha Of course we have the right to take sides as we feel like and we have done it many times here. Hmm, it is a misconcept again. Of course, Poland would have done much better without her lousy military heroes whose only dubious merit is that they started some fight. Unfortunately, they hadn`t planned it well enough so the fight ended with a massacre like in Warsaw Uprising. This is again Polish cheap sentimental patriotism which I tend to reject. The Czechs have been under foreign influence longer than Poland, since 16 century. Have they lost their language and culture? No, their language is OK, and their culture is more European than Polish. Prague is the most beautiful capital in Eastern Europe. No, I won`t. Can`t you see it makes the discussion more vivid??? hahahahahahahahahahaha But not the ones from 15th century. Try to concentrate on modern times! OK? hahahahahahahaha [/quote]
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Pawian
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Post by Pawian on Feb 2, 2008 6:13:55 GMT -7
That is exactly what I wrote. The Jews were 'overrepresented' in the highest ranks of communist secret service. The highest ranks usually give the orders to lower ranks, am I right? Plese read more attentively yourself before you recommend more reading. [ Yes, indeed, you wrote it. But it still means nothing. That`s not the highest ranks that really counted. How many Jews were there at top positions: 10, 20? What counts were those hundreds, thousands of low-class Poles who believed in communism or at least pretended to believe and they carried out all orders. Without those masses of stupified aryan Poles communism wouldn`t have been introduced so successfully as it was. And it`s high time to stop accusing Jews for communism in Poland. Most of it was Polish business after all.
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