Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
|
Post by Pawian on Feb 4, 2008 11:31:13 GMT -7
I disagree. Certain kind of people flock to the capital where the power amd money is. In Poland and elsewhere. The uprising has nothing to do with it. Yes. Gangsters always flock. But whether they are allowed to do theiur business depends on locals a lot, doesn`t it? And if locals are gangsters themselves? hahahahaha Konrad Mazowiecki was dumb because he brought the Teutonic Knights to Poland! hahahaha As Polish patriots, they would certainly do. Yet, there were also Ukrainian patriots who could tell you about the pacifications of Ukrainian villages by the Polish army and police in 1930s. In Heaven probably. hahahaha
|
|
Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
|
Post by Pawian on Feb 6, 2008 7:30:13 GMT -7
Pawian, What could the people of Poland, and more so, Warsaw have done? The people of France gave up, and kept there city, but lost so much more. What did they lose? You mean some honour or dignity? Of course, it doesn`t matter today. People forget such things very soon and those who remember and point them out suffer from inferiority complex. Yes, they didn`t give up. Yes, they can keep their self- respect. However, I think it is ridiculous to keep self-respect in the cemetery among ruins smelling of dead bodies. Today nobody remembers about Polish resistance and they even accuse Poles of cooperating with Nazis. It turns out that the whole Polish war effort was futile. Poles should have kept quiet like the Czechs to avoid unnecessary losses. One of the lost occasions to keep quiet was the Warsaw Rising.
|
|
Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
|
Post by Pawian on Feb 6, 2008 7:50:18 GMT -7
Cheap means not worth too much, typical and so common that it turns banal.
OK, so you agree that Controversy is a good choice for the thread. You sounded different when you wrote:
or may be my perception of English is faulty here???
Yes, because I know it so well. Isn`t it natural? I thought you are able to understand such simple truth. When you are married to the same man for 50 years, we will see how much interest you will have in him at the end of the period. hahahahaha
It is obvious you don`t know Poles. Poles are happy when they can die for their motherland. They don`t want to work for it, they don`t want to pay taxes, but when it comes to dying, they are the first. And they like it, especially when the world is looking at it.
I called it pathetic because the world wasn`t impressed when a bunch of Polish fools died for the sake of a lost cause.
Fortunately, Poles changed their attitude a lot.
You need to study more about Polish spirit. hahahahaha
|
|
|
Post by holaola on Feb 9, 2008 7:14:36 GMT -7
Yes Pawian, your perception of English was faulty with regard to my comment on the “controversial” thread, but never mind.
I’m very glad if Polish attitudes are more cautious now especially if there is less reliance on foreign allies’ loyalty or willingness/ability to help. I don’t, however, agree with calling those who took part in the Uprising “fools”.
It doesn’t really matter, now, if the Uprising was a strategic mistake. The Poles were not the only ones to commit such errors. Had the British and the French kept to their side of the pact and made a real move against Germany right at the beginning of the War, the war itself would have probably lasted only a few months with a colossal saving of human life. They didn’t and that was a mistake. They didn’t know then that all the German forces were pushing East.
That’s what happens in wars: people don’t know exactly what is happening. There are breakdowns in communications – constantly. There is espionage and counter-espionage. Battles don’t stop because people are deciding on the next best step to take. There is chaos – and where there is chaos mistakes are inevitable. That in no way detracts from the bravery of any individual – or makes him less of a hero.
It is one thing to analyse a situation years after the facts with all the results close to hand and from the warm, well-lit comfort of a study, on a full stomach – and a completely different matter when the analysis takes place by candle light, on a near starvation diet and surrounded by the enemy’s five-year long regime of shouting, shoving and shooting. Analysis in the first case is all too easy – in the second case calm analysis is nigh on impossible.
I feel that if anybody is bored or disinterested in such cases as that of the Uprising it is precisely because the knowledge of these events was imparted by the communist regime. It doesn’t seem illogical that to play down any effective Polish war effort all it takes is constant harping on about an event’s irrational romanticism, making it sufficiently repetitive, stupid and sufficiently dripping with pathos until the masses lose all self-esteem and start hating their heroes. Divide and rule: a system as old as the hills. In effect from the very outset the USSR always tried to downplay Polish ability to take care of themselves.
But consider the events from completely different angle: if the Jewish community had a story like this one to tell they’d be telling it over and over again, this way and that, until the whole world knew it off by heart. Especially as it is a very good, impressive story and the people in it proved themselves to be indomitable – just like the Jews.
Anyway, Hollywood is still raking money in from war films – why? Because they are never bored and these stories are never boring. Perhaps the real issue here is that whereas the USA has good story writers, Poland has not. Perhaps that is the real problem here.
By the way - when I speak of Polish soldiers I do mean all Polish soldiers on all fronts, and not just those involved in the Uprising.
|
|
|
Post by leslie on Feb 9, 2008 9:05:24 GMT -7
Dear Holaola
I agree with many of the statements you make on this forum and I feel you are of real benefit to it. In your last posting you said:
"""Had the British and the French kept to their side of the pact and made a real move against Germany right at the beginning of the War, the war itself would have probably lasted only a few months with a colossal saving of human life. They didn’t and that was a mistake."""
I agree, the war would have been over in months etc and I would probably be working for Charles and speaking perfect German, reporting to the town Gauleiter every day to show what I good boy I was. But in reality I think I would have been with a partisan band roaming the mountains of the Cumbrian Lake District and coming down only to shoot the hell out of our occupiers. I would also probably be dead by now!!
We also had Chamberlain as our Prime Minister - one of the biggest wets we've ever had as PM, but perhaps it was just as well or the scenario I have painted earlier may just have come true. Margaret Thatcher was our warlike PM (she didn't hesitate in sending our forces thousands of miles to the Falklands) but if she had been PM at the end of August 1939, I think my scenario would still hold good.
You are correct that we didn't know what was going to happen in the East, particularly with Russia who had signed an agreement with Hitler, so I think we had every reason to go carefully.
Just a comment on the Warszawa Rising - I think they were the bravest people imaginable, if only a little naive as to what they could do - but they did something. Have you read Norman Davies's book on the Rising? I think it gives the best, most balanced view of the whole affair.
Pozdrawiam
Leslie
|
|
Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
|
Post by Pawian on Feb 9, 2008 12:44:21 GMT -7
Yes Pawian, your perception of English was faulty with regard to my comment on the “controversial” thread, but never mind. Me do thought sow. Sumtaimz me not understanden peepyl whot sai Aengleesh. It matters to me a lot. I am very sensitive to the beauty in my environment. When I see how communist architecture replaced destroyed districts in Warsaw , I get nausea. OK, I was too harsh on those insurgents. Yes, I think it is a bit unfair to call them fools. They were patriots, a bit headless, but dutiful and full of sacrifice. In another thread I suggested calling them romantic desperados. Let`s use this name. You convinced me. However, as long as we can forgive the low rank echelons of fighters, their commanders are to blame for sending those people to death and dooming the entire city. We can talk about chaos, the lack of knowledge bla bla bla. Yet, in all armies it is the commander who is responsible for the outcome of the battle. Rising commanders should be stigmatised for ever. Today, their names are given to streets all over Poland. I think it is unfair. Yes, low rank soldiers didn`t know much. They got an order and carried it out to the end, although they saw on the first day how they mates were falling dead under strafing fire. The greater is the fault of the commanders and politicians who provoked the Rising. Yes, you might be right here. The Warsaw Rising is just another rebellion which Poles started happily without thinking of consequences. The former rebellions ended with failures and oppression which were still bearable. The Warsaw Rising ended with the traumatic slaughter. It deeply influenced Poles` perception and way of thinking after the war. So, it wasn`t only communists who persuaded people about the nonsense of such acts. It was pure survival instinct. Even the Church, in breaking moments, advised caution and prevented people from heroism, because the result could be only slaughter again. It happened in 1981, after the martial law was declared and many people were angry at the bishops because they practically ordered people to obey the regime. The wisdom of such action surfaced only a few years later. I come from the intelligentsia family. It was imbued in my mind that the primary aim of a nation is to save its life substance first, then to avoid the massacre of the most valuable people who lead the nation. Avoid throwing pearls to swine, even if it is connected with certain dishonour. There were still many great men who survived 5 years` occupation in Warsaw. In 1944 they were sent to fight tanks. Yes, during the Rising, poets and students were fighting against German criminals - thieves, poachers, murderers. After the Warsaw lesson Poles fought their battle against communism without heroic deeds. Yes, there were a few when people got killled by communist police or army but the individual victims only gave fuel to more resistance. Overall, there was a peaceful resistance, the civil disobedience like in India, for which I admire Poles so much. Yes. That is a correct argument. The problem is that Poles are poor at advertising themselves. Yes, it is a problem, Even Wajda`s Katyn, if we look at its artistic value, is a poor movie which I didn`t like except for a few sscenes and don`t want to see it again. So, if directors of Wajda`s caliber can`t make good films, then who. Polish directors don`t want to take up such topics because they know they will be reluctantly received by Polish audience. I said it before, Katyn was saved from financial failure by students who en masse are taken to cinemas.
|
|
|
Post by livia on Feb 9, 2008 15:31:56 GMT -7
Yes Pawian, your perception of English was faulty with regard to my comment on the “controversial” thread, but never mind. I’m very glad if Polish attitudes are more cautious now especially if there is less reliance on foreign allies’ loyalty or willingness/ability to help. I don’t, however, agree with calling those who took part in the Uprising “fools”. It doesn’t really matter, now, if the Uprising was a strategic mistake. The Poles were not the only ones to commit such errors. Had the British and the French kept to their side of the pact and made a real move against Germany right at the beginning of the War, the war itself would have probably lasted only a few months with a colossal saving of human life. They didn’t and that was a mistake. They didn’t know then that all the German forces were pushing East. That’s what happens in wars: people don’t know exactly what is happening. There are breakdowns in communications – constantly. There is espionage and counter-espionage. Battles don’t stop because people are deciding on the next best step to take. There is chaos – and where there is chaos mistakes are inevitable. That in no way detracts from the bravery of any individual – or makes him less of a hero. It is one thing to analyse a situation years after the facts with all the results close to hand and from the warm, well-lit comfort of a study, on a full stomach – and a completely different matter when the analysis takes place by candle light, on a near starvation diet and surrounded by the enemy’s five-year long regime of shouting, shoving and shooting. Analysis in the first case is all too easy – in the second case calm analysis is nigh on impossible. I feel that if anybody is bored or disinterested in such cases as that of the Uprising it is precisely because the knowledge of these events was imparted by the communist regime. It doesn’t seem illogical that to play down any effective Polish war effort all it takes is constant harping on about an event’s irrational romanticism, making it sufficiently repetitive, stupid and sufficiently dripping with pathos until the masses lose all self-esteem and start hating their heroes. Divide and rule: a system as old as the hills. In effect from the very outset the USSR always tried to downplay Polish ability to take care of themselves. But consider the events from completely different angle: if the Jewish community had a story like this one to tell they’d be telling it over and over again, this way and that, until the whole world knew it off by heart. Especially as it is a very good, impressive story and the people in it proved themselves to be indomitable – just like the Jews. Anyway, Hollywood is still raking money in from war films – why? Because they are never bored and these stories are never boring. Perhaps the real issue here is that whereas the USA has good story writers, Poland has not. Perhaps that is the real problem here. By the way - when I speak of Polish soldiers I do mean all Polish soldiers on all fronts, and not just those involved in the Uprising. Hola Ola, if I could i'd send you flowers ;D ;D ;D It is very good you post here, thank you!!
|
|
Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
|
Post by Pawian on Feb 9, 2008 16:30:11 GMT -7
Hola Ola, if I could i'd send you flowers ;D ;D ;D It is very good you post here, thank you!! Why not??? Here`s a nice one: Agrostemma githagoOr this: Atropa belladonna
|
|
|
Post by holaola on Feb 11, 2008 8:48:56 GMT -7
Hello Leslie! I really don’t think it is a case of Chamberlain’s “wetness”. The world leading up to the middle of the 20th Century was extraordinarily 19th Century in mentality. Britain still had an empire – it was fading but still there. Britain called itself “great” and still believed the word applicable, as did many European romantics. A certain veneration surrounded the concept of “English gentlemen” – and above all a certain trust. Europeans looked up to the British, and the British took this attitude as earned and rightfully theirs: a special destiny. Just take a look at British children’s literature – even post-war adventure books – where the hero often won the day simply by telling the dreaded enemy “You can’t do this to me – I’m British!” That was the attitude. A British Passport was still considered to be the gateway to the world not in the sense of a travel permit but in the sense of being a unique document whose holder (uniquely) would be accepted always and everywhere with respect, if not particular joy – unlike any other traveller. That was the general concept and it wasn’t just in the imagination of the British – it was accepted, though perhaps grudgingly, by the other four billion, or thereabouts, occupants of the planet. British school children were taught virtually only about British successes and the Empire on which the sun never set, while classes were adorned with maps where the only countries that really stood out were those coloured in pinkish red – that being the Empire colour. Foreign countries’ history and geography was lightly touched on but usually only where there was some influence on Britain. This wasn’t because the curriculum was vast but because those other countries didn’t really count. That is the sort of world to which Chamberlain belonged. When he took the road of appeasement regarding Czechoslovakia it was with just a formal for-the-record show of regret for Czechoslovakia was simply a small, new country of even smaller consequence whose safety and sovereignty was only of secondary importance in the grand scheme of things, primary importance being that of Great Britain (with France thrown in for good measure and history). It’s not that anyone can have too much quarrel with such a stance taken by a British Prime Minister – he was in fact doing what he was paid to do: taking care of Number One, that is to say Britain. The trouble starts with the concept that any representative of the British Empire could somehow be wiser, more worldly and automatically imbued with innate feelings of democracy and fairness just because he was British. This was clearly not the case, but could Chamberlain have known it wasn’t? Of course not. He was educated not to. In all his dealings with Herr Hitler, Chamberlain saw what he wanted to see: Hitler in the guises of a reasonable man and himself in the guises of an astute one. In fact he was so sure of himself, so sure of his particular status as one of the chief representatives of the greatest Empire the world had known – that he never even bothered to take an interpreter to Germany on his trips, to at least give himself more thinking time and perhaps understand a little more about what was going on! That’s not being wet – that’s being silly. Livia - thank you for wanting to send me flowers.
|
|
|
Post by leslie on Feb 11, 2008 9:12:03 GMT -7
Holaola I wish that your view of Britain immediately pre-war WWII was completely correct, but I fear you are looking through rose-tinted spectacles. You say: "" Europeans looked up to the British, and the British took this attitude as earned and rightfully theirs: a special destiny. "" Whether this is so or not, somebody was wrong! Germany and Italy certainly did not hold these opinions and even then the Empire was showing all the signs of imminent crumbling. I still feel Chamberlain did not really have Czechoslovakia in mind when he made the 'agreements' with Hitler - it is recorded in his biographies that he wanted peace at all costs - and in this case 'all cost' was Czechoslovakia. The chiefs of the Armed forces prior to 1939 had been urging - as a result of their intelligence regarding the movements of Germany - that if we were going to be the great Empire Head, we had to build up Armed Forces to uphold this position and be able to ward off Germany. The politicians (led by chamberlain of course) refused to accept these arguments and cited the agreements that had been reached with Germany. France was in little better position, imagining that they were 100% safe by sitting behind the Maginot Line. Hitler and his forces soon proved both wrong and it was by some unknown circumstance that Hitler, once he had reached the Channel, just didn't immediately carry on across it and add Britain to the German Empire. Perhaps his intelligence sources were as bad as ours. So if I have expressed myself sufficiently clearly, we are not a million miles apart. If Pawi can send you a flower - so can I!!!!! Good to talk to you Leslie
|
|
|
Post by freetobe on Feb 11, 2008 19:32:42 GMT -7
Les,
Have you read The Bronski House" by Philip Marsden. It is referred to as a non-fiction novel. Marsden lives in England and his book takes place in Cornwall and the eastern Poland border lands
|
|
|
Post by leslie on Feb 12, 2008 3:49:52 GMT -7
Freetobe Many thanks for the book reference to 'The Bronski House', it sounds my sort of book. Will check my local library or failing that Amazon. Leslie
|
|
|
Post by holaola on Feb 12, 2008 7:15:33 GMT -7
Leslie, Thank you for the lovely flowers. I believe it wasn’t really Pawian who wanted to send me flowers, actually – I think he was doing it on Livia’s behalf! Now to my rose tinted spectacles. My intention wasn’t to whitewash Chamberlain’s guilt of arrogance and high-handedness – in fact I agree with more or less all you say. There was an extraordinary indifference to the fate of Czechoslovakia as there would be to that of Poland a few years later, and come to think of it, to that of the entire eastern half of Europe. I was just trying to explain how such arbitrary decisions could come about and how at least a part of the blame can be laid at the doors of a certain upbringing which led to the non-consideration of distant peoples. A political version of “out-of- sight, out-of-mind”. My optimistic side would induce me to believe that such events could not recur in our more illuminated times, and that they only occurred because of a latent 19th Century mentality. My pessimistic side, instead, induces me to believe that such decisions are in fact possible to this very day and depend, as usual, not on morality and justice but just on an up-to-date arsenal and powerful friends. As for other nations not being impressed by Great Britain – I’m not sure whether that is quite true. Mussolini certainly wanted to emulate GB in at least some small way by acquiring colonies in Africa – and who imitates does admire. Hitler would much rather have had an ally in GB than an enemy. Poland certainly would not have turned to Britain had she held her in contempt, and the USA would not have schemed together with the USSR behind GB’s back to push the Empire closer to it’s demise if they hadn’t had some envy of it. Good to talk to you too, Ola
|
|
|
Post by livia on Feb 12, 2008 12:51:50 GMT -7
Leslie, Thank you for the lovely flowers. I believe it wasn’t really Pawian who wanted to send me flowers, actually – I think he was doing it on Livia’s behalf! Yes, sometimes even Pawian is very useful! ;D ;D ;D
|
|
Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
|
Post by Pawian on Feb 12, 2008 13:15:29 GMT -7
Leslie, Thank you for the lovely flowers. I believe it wasn’t really Pawian who wanted to send me flowers, actually – I think he was doing it on Livia’s behalf! Yes, sometimes even Pawian is very useful! ;D ;D ;D PIDS - Pawian Immediate Delivery Service reporting to work!
|
|