Mary
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 934
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Post by Mary on Mar 4, 2008 21:48:08 GMT -7
It is so very true that most of life falls into a grey area.
But, I think your statement following "Let God sort it out" Is quite profound.
Let's examine that.
Is it it a personal right to decide who lives or dies, or should that be left to our God?
What would God tell us to do?
In the cases of rape, incest, what would God say about that? Is this innocent child to pay the price of death for the criminal? OR>>> Is God calling us to show compassion for the victims, mother and child? Where is the support, compassion and counseling to come from? It is to come from the rest of us. There has to be support and counseling to get the mother through this. There has to be confirmation that she is doing the right thing, even though she was violated, for the innocent child, that is half her flesh and soul.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't believe we were placed here to just pursue our own selfish pleasures. We are to emulate our Lord and his compassion, to do unto others.........
Now>>> Heres another thing.....
This absolutely does not mean that bombing abortion clinics and murdering abortionists is right! It also does not mean we are to look down on those who had abortions.
I personally know several people, (including one man) who are tormented by the decision to abort their children. They need our support and our compassion. It's a terrible thing to live with when it sinks in that you killed your child. And many times it is years after the fact when it hits home.
Just one example; My daughter has a friend who had 2 abortions. She was young and unmarried, same father. She has since had 2 other lovely children, same father, and they are both going through terrible emotional troubles knowing they made the decision to abort their first two children. That's not the end of it.... Here's the Grandma, (a personal friend of mine) who at the time, thinking this was best, took her daughter for the 2 abortions. She says she can't help but hear the horrible vacuum, sucking sounds of the abortion clinic when she looks at her 2 living grandkids, and knows she supported, and even encouraged the abortion of her first 2 grandchildren. We cry together often.............
Abortion not only kills a child's life, it kills many other souls...
Mary
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Post by freetobe on Mar 4, 2008 23:02:59 GMT -7
Uncle,
Not yet do we leave the subject of accusations. 1 - sexism: If your remarks are not sexist and derogatory in regard to Mrs. Clinton, then what are they? I repeat what I wrote "if some one made the same remark about your sister, you would have bruised the other hand" There many insightful statements that could be made about her choice of campaign advertising, but "Jack in Drag"? I could care less about who Nicholson supports and the ad was plain dumb. But if any candidate for political office presented advertising that was factual, the American public would not belive it. 2- racism. I do not recall any one accusing you of this. That in it self is amazing, given what you have written about Obama, and also your insinuations that a post I made in answer to Pawian's question about Obama's origins was racist. You also had something to say about throwing out the bait to engender a response, Sounds like the PCF has another flamer. 3- bible thumper. You have made many references to your "christianity" Ethical behavior is not "christianity" Do you believe christians are the sole practioners of ethical behavior? I can name quite a few "christians"that are sadly lacking in that trait, starting with those men in the White House. 4- white male from the midwest. What is accusatory (or wrong) about about that? Are you diminished by that identification? Remember, that is your choice of identifaction.
Now that the air is cleared, perhaps we can move on to lighter issues and abortion is not one of them.
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Post by uncltim on Mar 4, 2008 23:18:31 GMT -7
Mary, You have hit the nail on the head. From the perspective of the faithful you have made the perfect argument. I usually try to approach it from a purely secular values side just because many will tune you out when you invoke biblical reference. Abortion is fairly easy to destroy from just the gender equity/civil rights aspect. Im glad you discussed the survivors remorse aspect. It is all to real and undiscussed. I am reminded of the phrase: Abortion- 1 dead, 1 wounded. I fear that we often come across as trying to punish the wounded survivor, Hate the sin, Love the sinner.
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Post by uncltim on Mar 5, 2008 0:07:18 GMT -7
freetobe, I perceive your opinion of me to be just as I have described. By your posts Its fairly obvious. If someone made a comment about my sister I would ignore it. Just because she would want me to. You can always decline an invitation to a fight. The American people aren't dumb, they are misled. Racism is a game and a political tool. I believe in equality, I will also defend my race if it is denigrated. My post with regard to Obama was meant to be thought provoking, to question why we label a person who is bi-racial as a single race. nothing more. I confess that I am a poor example of Christianity. Christianity is a lifelong journey, to change animalistic behaviors. we are not actually christ. So how do you define ethical? Do you subscribe to situational ethics? I just wonder what your guideposts are. I feel like Ive given you all the explanations that I need to, I hope you take note that I have been civil and declined to go on the offensive . I would hope you would share more of your feeling/opinions with me. I would be interested to see if you are who I perceive you to be. You appear to try to shut down discussion that you dont like by tossing out terms like "flamer"and thinly veiling accusations of various "isms". I wont be defending myself to you again, I do however challenge you to tell me about yourself.
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Post by freetobe on Mar 5, 2008 9:32:42 GMT -7
Not a chance, uncle. you are too spooky for me. Stay with those who share your beliefs as I am not one and have nothing to offer that you would be open enough to consider.
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Post by Jaga on Mar 5, 2008 10:50:01 GMT -7
+++Not a chance, uncle. you are too spooky for me.+++
freetobe, sometimes you are forgetting that we are all people with feelings. Please, keep your language in check.
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Post by Jaga on Mar 5, 2008 10:59:41 GMT -7
Jaga " They have a right to kill their baby." Lets me ask a real tough question. Most Pro Life people consider it murder. Consider this. There is a home invasion in your house. Your 14 year old daughter is brutally raped and impregnated. She pleads to her parents that she does not want to give birth to a child from the beast who raped her. Do you force her to give birth and put up the child up for adoption? . George, this is an extreme case, this is not what usually abortion is about. This is actually what I wrote in my e-mail - about women in Yugoslavia being raped. Even the pope was understanding with them. But these cases has NOTHING TO DO with the slogan :that women have rights to their bodies". Poland has a strict abortion law. Do woman have a problem getting a abortion?? yes, but in the case of rape, they can do it. Just like in the serious health cases. ++++ in spite of rigid abortion laws in Poland - there were less children to be born recently.
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Post by freetobe on Mar 5, 2008 16:01:31 GMT -7
+++Not a chance, uncle. you are too spooky for me.+++ freetobe, sometimes you are forgetting that we are all people with feelings. Please, keep your language in check. Jaga, what's offensive about my post? Don't I have feelings also? It is my sense that the member that you protecting is up to the same stuff that banned Mike was. You tossed Mike because he asked questions of me you deemed inappropriate. Now you say to me that my language is offensive. How? I tell this person I am not interested in sharing info with him about my personal life because he is spooky to me and you chastise ME not him for being offensive. I think it's about time you took a good hard look at what is happening to your forum. The members are again arguing, not having Meaningful discussions of subjects. You have a handful of members who post here and yet the member list is a yard long. Why do you think that is? IMO because the lurkers view the forum as a place where there are many heated exchanges between persons with "passionate views" and not much else. I believe we can agree to disagree and then move on. I also believe that I am free to be myself and rebuff anyone that gets too personal. Case closed.
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nathanael
Cosmopolitan
: “Die Wahrheit macht frei und ist das Fundament der Einheit (John Paul II)
Posts: 636
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Post by nathanael on Mar 6, 2008 5:24:52 GMT -7
Jaga, reading these posts for the first time, I see myself in disagreement with some of the things that have been said about who would be the best president. First of all, like you, I am also pro-choice ... of life. But I disagree on the children of rape. The Pope never said that "the children fathered by [Yugoslav] rapists could be aborted"! All he said, was that those rapes, being against will, "did not degrade women"! If my 14-year old daughter is raped and "pleads to kill the baby," I would still refer her to the Ten Commandments: not to a "male judge," but to a God Who is Merciful to all children, including the children of rape! The Ten Commandments prohibit women to kill babies (I say it advisedly, all Ten Commandments, not just the Fifth)! If America becomes "Pro-Life," no one will be forcing women to give birth ... only Nature will, that is, the natural law! No "right-to-the-body" can override the natural law and the Law of God! The unborn child also has a body! Both the Old and New Testaments say "love your body as your neighbor's" - as yourself (Lk 10, 27)! And who can dispute that the child in the womb is a woman's "closest neighbor" (Lk 10, 29-37)? Finally, I strongly disagree with Rdywenur, that "religion and politics should not mix." On the ethical-moral level they do and must! This idea, and the ideas that "we should not tell others how to live," or "who should live and who should die (abortion), was what made Nazi regime possible with its hundreds of millions of dead, men. women, homosexuals, and straights! Not to mention the similar ideas, which drove Bin Laden to smash the World Trade Center Towers! On the contrary, we all, politicians and religious, must be protectors of the moral order of the world! Violence invariably happens when we enact our own "moral orders," in lieu of the Moral Order of the Ten Commandments, given to us by our Moral God! This is why I believe that the best president will be one who is pro choice of life!
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Post by Jaga on Mar 6, 2008 12:35:40 GMT -7
++++The Pope never said that "the children fathered by [Yugoslav] rapists could be aborted"! All he said, was that those rapes, being against will, "did not degrade women"! If my 14-year old daughter is raped and "pleads to kill the baby," I would still refer her to the Ten Commandments: not to a "male judge," but to a God Who is Merciful to all children, including the children of rape! +++
Yes, you are right. The pope did not tell women to abort babies. I would never do it also. But he realized that rape puts extra load on these women psychic. If I would be a mother of a daughter who was raped I would do everything to discourage her to have an abortion and I will help her to deal with her difficult situation. It is one thing to tell the women to keep the pregnancy and another thing to help them emotiionally and financially. If we want them to give birth to the babies we need to protect them in this difficult times. Could you put yourself in their position? I know it is hard.
I noticed that people who never could even be in the position of these women (men) oppose abortion but do not thing about the ways how to help....
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Post by uncltim on Mar 6, 2008 18:00:56 GMT -7
Spooky ?
I only inquire about you to try to understand you. To understand your frame of reference.I am a novice with the forum stuff so If I crossed a line with that Im sorry.
If people are "lurking about" to see people debate important, passionate, and relevant issues, Thats awesome! The only sad thing is that they dont participate.
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george
Cosmopolitan
Posts: 568
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Post by george on Mar 7, 2008 5:57:26 GMT -7
Hi Jaga....This will be my last posting on this subject at least now. My original posting i don't think was answered by anybody. For instance you stated " If my 14-year old daughter is raped and "pleads to kill the baby," I would still refer her to the Ten Commandments: not to a "male judge," but to a God Who is Merciful to all children, including the children of rape! +++" My question would be, if she is adamant about aborting the baby, would she have legal recourse to do so? If it would not be legal, could she be prosecuted along with her doctor? And what would the sentence be? Also, if it is legal to have an abortion in the case of rape, is it legalized murder? If not, why not? Nobody has ever been able to explain this one to me. I certainly understand and respect your position on this but i think there are holes in it. I know the Pope sympathized with Yugoslavian rape victims and i'm sure it came from deep within his heart. However the fact remains he pleaded for them to give birth to the results of this violence. I'm really not sure if a man can relate this type of incident wheather he's a Pope or a Bishop or a bricklayer. I guess what i'm trying to get at is wheather abortion is truly murder in the sense of the word. In my opinion it is not. Call it what you may, but murder? Maybe immoral in a lot of cases but muder is something altogether different. If somebody tells me that if a rape victim is commiting murder by having a abortion i will respect their " Pro Life" opinion. However, i will also vote and lobby for a Pro Choice position whenever i can. I will however agree totally with you when you stated that some people who are against abortion will do nothing emotionally and financially to the victims. Unfortunetly, many Pro Life people come from socially conservative circles who on one hand will be totally against abortion but on the other hand will be against any government programs which will help especially poor woman. Too much government help which spells " Socialistic" in their book.
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Post by freetobe on Mar 8, 2008 18:32:52 GMT -7
Would some one please indicate how this thread of a woman for president has now become a forum for discussing abortion law in the U.S? Please don't say abortion law is a major issue in the current campaign. It is not. The issues are the economy "stupid", the illegal war in Iraq and how to get impeachment proceedings against Bush/Cheney. The last is probably a lost cause. On the bright side a small town in Vermont recently passed a law that would require the arrest of Bush or Cheney should they set foot in their town. BRAVO!
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Post by rdywenur on Mar 8, 2008 19:15:14 GMT -7
Probably cause we are so easily led astray, FTB.......so lead us not to temptation ;D
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Post by jimpres on Mar 8, 2008 20:01:18 GMT -7
Well then lets discuss the qualifications of the woman running for Pres. Foreign Policy, Domestic Policy years functioning as a leader in any capacity for either of these needed skills?
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