tufta
Freshman Pole
Posts: 45
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Post by tufta on May 17, 2008 8:20:25 GMT -7
Source 'Rzeczpospolita'.17-05-2008 03:09 Museum of Warsaw Uprising has received card index of members of German SS special brigade commanded by Oskar Dirlewanger. On 4 August 1944 this unit was directed to suppress Warsaw Uprising. It took part in the Wola massacre (Rzeź Woli) and in crimes committed on Old Town (Starówka). - It was rather a group of pigs than soldiers - evaluated after the war another SS member – Ernst Rode. The index was received from Austrian Red Cross. - We collect testimonies about Warsaw Uprsing. We wanted to carry conversations with still alive soldiers who fought against insurgents – says Museum director Jan Ołdakowski. The search through archives was carried on in Germany and Austria. The card index recovered by Austrian Red Cross included not only surnames of the criminals, but their addresses as well. Our German volunteers knew what these people did during the Uprsing and they felt uneasy having to call them – says Hanna Nowak-Radziejowska from the Musem. However, they have executed several phones. It turned out that part of these persons live under old addresses. They have all declined conversation, throwing the receiver or throwing insults at our volunteers. Jan Ołdakowski assures, that card index of the brigade will be soon given to IPN. - We are very interested in obtaining these documents. There is no doubt that soldiers of this unit are criminals. We will consider initiating the inquiry. Especially that the German crimes commited during the uprising have not been judged – says IPN chairman Janusz Kurtyka. .............................................. Further reading Warsaw UprisingThe Warsaw Uprising (Powstanie Warszawskie) was a World War II struggle by the Polish Home Army (Armia Krajowa) to liberate Warsaw from German occupation. The Uprising began on August 1, 1944, as part of a nationwide rebellion, Operation Tempest. It was intended to last for only a few days until the Soviet Army would reach the city. The Soviet advance stopped short, however, while Polish resistance against the German forces continued for 63 days (until October 2). more at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_UprisingWola massacreThe Wola massacre (Polish: Rzeź Woli, "Wola slaughter") (August 5-August 8, 1944 in Wola, Warsaw) was the scene of the largest single massacre in the history of Poland. According to different sources, some 40,000[1] to 100,000[2] Polish civilians and POWs were killed by the German forces during their suppression of the Warsaw Uprising. The Nazis tried to suppress the uprising early with an attempt to terrorize the inhabitants of Warsaw, hoping to end without having to commit to heavy urban combat, before realizing it was only stiffening the opposition. More at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wola_massacreWarsaw Uprising Museumwww.1944.pl/index.php?lang=en&lang_time=1SS Schutzstaffel (German for "Protective Squadron"), abbreviated SS- was a major Nazi military organization under Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. The SS grew from a small paramilitary unit to an elite force that served as the Führer's "Praetorian Guard," the Nazi Party's "Shield Squadron" and a force with as much political influence as the regular German armed forces. Built upon the Nazi racist ideology, the SS, under Heinrich Himmler's command, was primarily responsible for the crimes against humanity perpetrated by the Nazis during the Second World War. More at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS
Oskar Dirlewanger (September 26, 1895 Würzburg - June 7, 1945 Altshausen) was a World War II officer with the Schutzstaffel (SS). He commanded the infamous SS-Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger unit made out of amnestied Germans convicted of major crimes. More at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_DirlewangerIPNInstitute of National Remembrance — Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation (Polish: Instytut Pamięci Narodowej — Komisja Ścigania Zbrodni przeciwko Narodowi Polskiemu; IPN) is a Polish government-affiliated research institute with lustration prerogatives and prosecution powers ounded by specific legislation. It specialises in the legal and historical sciences and in particular the recent history of Poland. IPN investigates both Nazi and Communist crimes committed in Poland, documents its findings and disseminates the results of its investigations to the public. |
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Post by Atlantis5 on May 17, 2008 11:14:29 GMT -7
Well, here we go once again, I should have known. If you are to piss on my country, then please do it correctly.
The most of the known world is very well informed of the war, and I may say, some what tired.
Most of the history of read, know what happend so many years past as what it is now, just history. It was war time.
Your country, like or not, was a simple staging and population elimination ground. For protection of our home people, it was necessary to use your nation for installation of population elimination camps.
With the SS, yes of course they were rude, but effecint. For ever belt buckle was the wording of {Unsere Ehre heist Treue} that is our language, for you, {Our Honour Is Loyalty}.
If not for your loused national military, non of this would have occured. So, please stand in your corner and be blessed you are still with us today..
But for to your honour, I will present to you the following my dear Polischen.
36.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS
Lineage Wilddiebkommando Oranienburg
Sonderkommando Dr. Dirlewanger
SS-Sonderbataillon Dirlewanger
SS-Regiment Dirlewanger
SS-Sonderregiment Dirlewanger
SS-Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger
36. Waffen-Grenadier-Division
History This divisional unit was formed on February 20th, 1945 while at the Oder front from the SS-Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger and from parts of a number of Heer units. It was a division in name only, and is now considered by far the worst unit in the Waffen-SS, being known for its brutal and savage fighting, nearly all of the soldiers of the unit being ex-concentration camp inmates and prisoners.
The origin of this infamous unit lies originally with its namesake, Dr. Oskar Dirlewanger, born on September 26, 1895. He was a very intelligent, extremely brave man, but he had some serious flaws that made him unfit for life in normal society. Dirlewanger's early life showed promise though, as he served as an officer in the German Army in the First World War, winning both classes of the Iron Cross. Afterwards, he continued to serve as a soldier in various Freikorps groups. Once relative peace came to Europe, Dirlewanger finshed his university education, eventually obtaining a PhD in Political Science. He joined the NSDAP in 1923, but was eventually expelled. He rejoined years later, receiving Party #1,098,716. His eventual SS # was 357,267.
Dirlewanger's troubled personality first came to public attention in 1934, when he was convicted of molesting a female minor. He lost his teaching position, and could never return to it. Dirlewanger served a two year prison sentence, and then, back in society, received a second conviction for molestation. Later, from within a concentration camp, he contacted his old Freikorps friend Gottlob Berger, now working closely with Heinrich Himmler in the SS. Berger decided to do what he could for Dirlewanger, despite the latter's two convictions and growing reputation as an alcoholic. Berger secured an appointment for Dirlewanger with the Condor Legion in Spain. He received three wounds while there, returning to Germany in 1939. Berger then arranged a reserve Allgemeine-SS officer's commission for Dirlewanger. Berger realized that Dirlewanger could only keep his behavior in check while on military duty. The two sought to use military service to rehabilitate convicts, beginning with poachers. It was felt that these men could be made into good soldiers, mainly because they were experienced at riflery and wood craft. They would eventually be trained as partisan hunters.
The eventual Dirlewanger Division began its life on June 15, 1940 as Poachers Commando Oranienburg. After weeding out the less qualified, the unit strength stood at 84 men on July 1st, 1940. Non-poachers soon began volunteering for the unit, in order to escape concentration camp life, raising the strength to 300 men on September 1st, 1940. It then became known as SS-Sonder Bataillon Dirlewanger, and answered for supply and training purposes to the Totenkopfverbande. The bataillon was assigned to anti-partisan duties in the Generalgovernment (the area of Poland not incorporated into the Reich), and was operationally answerable only to Heinrich Himmler. The bataillon sometimes acted under orders from Higher-SS and Police Leader for the Generalgovernment Friedrich-Wilhelm Krueger, but Dirlewanger and Krueger clashed over questions of authority and the bataillon was no longer welcome there. In February, 1942, it was reassigned to Belorussia, where it served under the Higher-SS and Police Leader for Central Russia. It later served under Chief of Anti-Partisan Operations Erich von dem Bach.
On January 29, 1942, the bataillon received authorization to recruit foriegn volunteers to supplement its strength. On August 20, 1942, Hitler authorized the expansion of the unit to two battalions. The added strength came from additional poachers, Russians and Ukrainians recruited in the field, and military delinquents. This last source had been approved on October 15, 1942. The term "military delinquents" here referred to men from all branches of the Wehrmacht, including the Waffen-SS, who had been convicted of felony offences while in service. These men were distinct from the "SB-soldaten" who served in the SS-Fallschirmjaeger Abteilung 500 (and its successor, Abteilung 600). The "SB-soldaten" had been convicted of failure to properly carry out duties, which meant they had fallen asleep on sentry duty, improperly fufilled specific orders, or similar military acts, etc. The "military deliquents" were considered guilty of actions that would be classified as criminal in civilian life. For both classes, it was hoped that service in these special units would rehabilitate them sufficiently for a return to their previous duties.
The Dirlewanger unit had not yet received its II.Bataillon in February 1943. At that date, the main body reported a strength of 700 men, 300 of whom were Soviet citizens. About this time, the unit was allowed to display rank insignia, and to wear a collar patch displaying crossed rifles above a handgrenade. This was the first step towards the unit becoming a Waffen-SS unit.
There was never a great number of poachers available in Germany, but non-poachers had been allowed to pass themselves off as such if they volunteered for the Dirlewanger unit. In the spring of 1943, the ability to volunteer was extended to all classes of German convicts in the Generalgovernment. In May, 1943, 500 such men who had been formed into the II.Bataillon joined the unit, now retitled SS-Sonder Regiment Dirlewanger.
The unit had been involved in numerous firefights with partisan bands, and Dirlewanger had suffered several wounds. He received the clasp to his Iron Cross II on May 24, 1942, and that to his Iron Cross I on September 16, 1942. Dirlewanger often directly led his men in battle, leaving much of the planning for his regiment's operations in the hands of his Ia, SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Kurt Weisse. The regiment fought in its heaviest combat yet during the destruction of the Lake Pelik Autonomous Republic, in August of 1943. It suffered 300 casualties between February and the end of August. Dirlewanger received the German Cross in Gold on December 5, 1943 in recognition of his regiment's successes during this time.
A III.Bataillon had been approved for SS-Sonder Regiment Dirlewanger in August 1943. Before it could be organized, the regiment was forced into frontline combat on an emergency basis with Army Groups Center and North, beginning on November 14, 1943. It was not really equipped or trained for this, and the unit suffered extremely heavy casualties. On December 30, 1943, the unit reported a strength of 259 men. Hundreds of military and concentration camp convicts were forwarded to rebuild the regiment, and by February 19, 1944, its strength had reached 1200 men, and on April 15th, it established its own replacement company to facilitate replacing casualties. Soviet citizens were no longer recruited, and future men for the regiment would be exclusively military convicts and volunteers from the concentration camps. These last were now not only convicts, but also political prisoners.
Anti-partisan operations in Belorussia reduced the regiment's strenght to 971 men by June 30, 1944. At this point it became caught up in the German retreat stemming from the Soviet Bagration offensive in June of 1944 against Army Group Center. Much of Army Group Center had been destroyed, and the remnants were withdrawing towards Poland in disarray. SS-Sonder Regiment Dirlewanger distinguished itself in a series of rearguard actions, and made it to Poland in relatively good order.
The regiment was next assigned to the forces under von dem Bach who were battling the Polish Home Army that had occupied much of Warsaw. It went into action on August 5, 1944, as part of the Police Brigade directed by SS-Gruppenfuehrer Heinz Reinfarth. It completed its role in the destruction of Polish opposition in early September, and spent the next month watching the Soviets across the Vistula. The regiment left Warsaw 648 men strong.
Dirlewanger had received his final promotion, to SS-Oberfuehrer der Reserve, on August 15th. Reinfarth was so impressed with his bravery that he recommended Dirlewanger for the Knight's Cross. The award was approved on September 30, 1944. Dirlewanger had already achieved the Wound Badge in Gold, and in Warsaw he received the 11th wound of his career.
The regiment was now expanded and rebuilt, and a large number of military convicts became available as units shattered in Western Europe retreated into the Reich and turned in their reprobates. These men and the survivors of Warsaw formed the SS-Sonder Brigade Dirlewanger, which in early October, 1944, was retitled 2.SS-Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger. The 4000 men of the brigade broke down as follows: 200 Poachers (5%), 600 Waffen-SS/Polizei convicts (15%), 2000 Heer/Luftwaffe convicts (50%), 1200 assorted convicts and political prisoners (30%). The brigade then fought against the Slovak uprising between October 16th and 30th, 1944.
From here on out, most of its replacements would be Communist and Socialist volunteers from concentration camps. Most of these men volunteered in the hope of deserting to the Soviets, who were much more well-disposed to those who actively made their way to the Red Army instead of waiting around for liberation. A newcomer to the brigade late in 1944 was SS-Brigadefuehrer and German Cross in Gold Holder Fritz Schmedes, the former commander of 4.SS-Polizei-Panzergrenadier-Division. Schmedes was a career Polizei officer who had risen through the division. Himmler removed him from command on December 12, 1944 because Schmedes had refused to carry out a senseless order. Himmler intended his treatment of Schmedes to be an example for other leaders, and to drive the lesson home, Schmedes was assigned to the Dirlewanger Brigade. Here he became the unofficial Tactical Officer, his role being to advise Dirlewanger and Weisse.
The brigade was organized into two regiments, each of two battalions (briefly three, until casualties and desertions reduced the available men), supported by two batteries of artillery. The unit now had the status of a unit administrated by the Waffen-SS, while not an actual part of it. This was similar to the treatment the Baltic Waffen-SS units received, though the Dirlewanger Brigade enjoyed none of the front-line prestige the Latvians and Estonians enjoyed. The two Dirlewanger regiments were titled Waffen-Grenadier Regiment 72 (commanded by SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Erich Buchmann) and Waffen-Grenadier Regiment 73 (commanded by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Ewald Ehlers). The brigade fought on the frontline in Hungary between December 14th and 29th, 1944. Two battalions composed primarily of former Heer officers fought well under Hauptman Otto Hafner, but another, formed mainly from Communists, predictably fell apart, many of its men deserting. All elements suffered heavy casualties. The brigade was later withdrawn to Slovakia to reorganize. The differing quality elements of the unit were broken up and spread around to improve the overall quality of the unit. This was the first time the unit had been in a developed area away from a combat zone, and civilians were soon complaining about Dirlewanger's men committing acts of looting and rape. Some of the volunteers were kept locked in buildings while away from the front because of their unreliablity!
At the beginning of February 1945, the brigade returned to front line combat because of the emergency situation along the Oder River in Silesia. The unit had been slated for expansion to a division, but entered combat near Guben before this happened. The orders enlarging it to the 36.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Dirlewanger arrived on February 14th. The next day, Oskar Dirlewanger was wounded for the 12th time, while personally leading a counterattack. He never returned to his new division. Schmedes assumed command, leading the division until the end of the war.
No new units were created to bring the brigade to divisional strength. Instead, several Heer detachments were assigned. These were the 1244.Grenadier-Regiment, 681.Panzerjaeger-Abteilung, Panzer Abteilung Stahnsdorf (with 28 Sturmgeschuetz), and 687.Pioneer-Brigade. Some Junkers from the former SS-Junkerschule at Braunschweig, who had been serving with 1.Fallschirm-Panzer-Division Hermann Goering on an ad-hoc basis, were assigned to the Dirlewanger Division as stiffening for the various elements. Additional volunteers from the concentration camps, including men from evacuated Auschwitz, were still being prepared for service with the Dirlewanger Division. Some of them reached it, others did not, in the chaos of the end of the war. Concentration camp inmates were accepted as volunteers as late as May of 1945.
The front in Silesia settled down in mid-March, 1945. The Soviet offensive to end the war began on April 16th, 1945, and the Dirlewanger Division began to retreat to the northwest at this time. Desertions became ever more common at this time, as the end was nearing. Schmedes and his headquarters attempted to reorganize the unit on April 25th, but found that it had almost completely disintegrated. Buchmann was the only man to turn up from 72.Regiment. Besides Ehlers, only 36 men from 73.Regiment were present. Ehlers had once commanded the concentration camp at Dachau, and this is probably why some of his men proceeded to lynch him that day!
The divisional staff made a last rallying stop on April 29th, but found the same sorry result as four days earlier. Schmedes then led what elements he could towards the Elbe River. Some men, along with other military and civilian elements, were caught and murdered by the Soviets. Schmedes and his staff entered American captivity on May 3, 1945.
Schmedes and Buchmann were never accused of any criminal activity. They lived openly after being released from post-war confinement. Weisse entered British captivity under an assumed name, posing as a Heer private. He escaped from a POW camp on March 5th, 1946, and was never heard from again. Many Communist volunteers from the concentration camps who had deserted to the Soviets, ended up in the government of East Germany. Oskar Dirlewanger was recovering from his last wound at a hospital in Althausen, Bavaria, at the end of the war. On June 1st, 1945, French occupation forces used Polish soldiers in their service to forcibly bring him to the Althausen jail. Dirlewanger was beaten and tortured over the next several days. He died under torture from the Polish guards during the night of June 4-5. This information was supressed at the time, and many bogus sightings of him were made around the world, until his remains were exhaumed and identified in 1960. Thus ended the life of a man who lived by, and excelled at, violence. He was successful at personally leading men in battle, but clearly out of place elsewhere in normal society. Some have questioned his receipt
one pissed off Kraut
Charles
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Post by jimpres on May 17, 2008 11:28:10 GMT -7
Charles,
You quoted "If not for your loused national military, non of this would have occured. So, please stand in your corner and be blessed you are still with us today.."
Are you saying the Polish Army was responsible for WWII? Not sure I understand the comment.
I thought that the German army invaded Westerplatte and then the war began. They wanted the cities
around the Baltic back.
Jim
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Post by Atlantis5 on May 17, 2008 12:39:33 GMT -7
Charles, You quoted "If not for your loused national military, non of this would have occurred. So, please stand in your corner and be blessed you are still with us today.." Are you saying the Polish Army was responsible for WWII? Not sure I understand the comment. I thought that the German army invaded Westerplatte and then the war began. They wanted the cities around the Baltic back. Jim No of course not Jim, that is not what of said by my self. You must understand the smoke screen here. This man is attempting to provoke me. He as some of Polish, hate us for our history, but love us for our tactics, and our money. The Polish army was not responsible for the war, for surely not so. But, they were not blind nor as the world around us. They knew as well as the sun rise in the morning, that an event of this magnitude was to occur, just not of the exact moment of course. Within this time, they {Polisch} had more then ample time to build up an effective defenses for the coming event. But, they did not. I will not mince with words, the military of my country of then, was simply of laughable, the equipment was of poor design and simply not suitable for any serious offensive. {With exception of tactics designed and proved with the Spanisch conflict}, it was of combined air/ground co-ordination that was the key. If the Polischen people were to play their cards correctly, they would have with ample time in advance, prepared with more correct weapons and best of all, resolve with knowledge. Defeated my country at first start. You will not read this in your history books, for your history was written by your selves. You should have listened to your French friends in the beginning, for they knew us from the beginning of time. For if left to them, after the erst war, they were to make our land a very large turnip field and our people,as simple vassals of sh---t for their pleasure and our woman to be their whores for their pleasure. Perhaps I may appear rather repulsive, but at the least, I am truthful. But look at the bright side. Here you have the opportunity to speak with a live German from the war time. If not for Jaga, I would not be here. In as much to the SS. Yes of course, I am very knowledgeable from experience as a very very close family relative, it is for this reason I was not to live in my country so close to end of war. Charles |
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Post by jimpres on May 17, 2008 13:08:01 GMT -7
Charles,
Thanks for the answer. I see the screen of smoke now. Yes, the poles could have been more prepared. But such is the wages of war.
Glad we have you to speak with on this subject. I have a friend from Kries Weibligen who said many of the German people did not believe some of the reports out of Poland at that time.
My cousin was in Stutthof and he told me of the SS and the German Army. Some were trying to save lives.
My cousin was third in line at the gas chamber but they needed workers to pull stumps from the road and he was spared.
I do enjoy your truthfulness.
Jim
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Post by uncltim on May 17, 2008 13:24:00 GMT -7
We are indeed fortunate to have representatives of all sides on the forum.
As I've stated before, everyone suffered.
Everyone knows what happened.
A better use of this opportunity would be to understand how things ever got to that point.
I get tired of this "war crimes" crap. When can American bomber pilots expect to be tried for fire-bombing German and Japanese civilians in their beds at night? Look, nations have militaries to kill people and break things. they get their orders from the polititians, put them on trial, not the soldiers.
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tufta
Freshman Pole
Posts: 45
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Post by tufta on May 17, 2008 13:44:37 GMT -7
Charles, please relax can you. I am not trying to provoke you. You are not the only person here. I provided NEW NEW NEW data on criminals of war who are still alive and unprosecuted. I am not interested in getting into details of your personal idiosyncrasy concerning Poland. Or maybe I misread it. You are right in one point however. Poland could have been better prepared for the war. But still there were Germans and Russians acting together needed. So now, instead of behaving like a mindless child, just relax and digest what was said without ascribing your own hatred, frustration, bitterness to the others. Or maybe just come back to your homeland and get some re-education. You seem too allienated. And try to remember - the war is only in your head. It's all over now. Germany and Poland are free, democratic, befriended nations. Try to say it 10 times each night you go to sleep. See you, my p.off Kraut!
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tufta
Freshman Pole
Posts: 45
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Post by tufta on May 17, 2008 13:52:42 GMT -7
We are indeed fortunate to have representatives of all sides on the forum. As I've stated before, everyone suffered. Everyone knows what happened. A better use of this opportunity would be to understand how things ever got to that point. I get tired of this "war crimes" crap. When can American bomber pilots expect to be tried for fire-bombing German and Japanese civilians in their beds at night? Look, nations have militaries to kill people and break things. they get their orders from the polititians, put them on trial, not the soldiers. You may be tired but that is the way it goes at least in Europe. There are act of wars. And there are crimes of war. The crimes of war don't go unppunished and they are not subject to presription. What you do in America with your military crimes is your business. And like it or not - the news I presented have hit the front pages in Poland today. And I thought this is a board for people interested in Poland. So is it, or is it not. You are wrong again when you equalize the sufferrings, if you do it in other than strictly individual meaning. |
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tufta
Freshman Pole
Posts: 45
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Post by tufta on May 17, 2008 14:52:54 GMT -7
I'll tell you when. When he gets off his plane and starts to cold-blooded murder the civilians, rape the women, steal from the houses and then burn everything to the ground. Then he's not a soldier anymore, he's a criminal.
Maybe you have robots to do the war. We still operate on human beings. And human beings even when military are not required to rape, burn and murder.
You know what? When I read all this discussion again it hit me it is not this Dzerman who has gotten on my nerves. I can understand a p.off, Poland hating Kraut with Charles' birthdate on exile in America. What got on my nerves most is yours dehumanized attitude, and your way of comparing everything to your closed American mentality (geeeez, When can American bomber pilots expect to be tried....)
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tufta
Freshman Pole
Posts: 45
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Post by tufta on May 17, 2008 14:56:11 GMT -7
My cousin was in Stutthof and he told me of the SS and the German Army. Some were trying to save lives. My cousin was third in line at the gas chamber but they needed workers to pull stumps from the road and he was spared. Jim Yes, there were Germans who tried to help at that time. Very few unfortunately. Does the story of your cousin take the crime off those who didn't try to to help. Those who murdered and raped? I don't think so. |
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Post by Atlantis5 on May 17, 2008 17:16:44 GMT -7
Charles, please relax can you. I am not trying to provoke you. You are not the only person here. I provided NEW NEW NEW data on criminals of war who are still alive and unprosecuted. I am not interested in getting into details of your personal idiosyncrasy concerning Poland. Or maybe I misread it. You are right in one point however. Poland could have been better prepared for the war. But still there were Germans and Russians acting together needed. So now, instead of behaving like a mindless child, just relax and digest what was said without ascribing your own hatred, frustration, bitterness to the others. Or maybe just come back to your homeland and get some re-education. You seem too allienated. And try to remember - the war is only in your head. It's all over now. Germany and Poland are free, democratic, befriended nations. Try to say it 10 times each night you go to sleep. See you, my p.off Kraut! Thank you tufta For now you are speaking your mind set in as much as I speak mine. IN this manner, for at least we are speaking. I understand your stance for it would be so a national stance of today in remembrance of yesterday. It would so seem that you must build at sunrise, a straw effigy to burn in the evening for fear of us to your west will return. I am not angry at you, for not, but perhaps disappointed. It would so seem you are intensely concentrated in thought of that long ago past war. Other then upon this forum have I encountered such war time talk. The people for the most part in America and Canada are not so concentrate of the war. Nor in France or Holland do I hear so much this war time remembrance. So for why here? With the Brits, it is more of conversation as to the Blitz/buzz bombs and the war on a conversational level. Not so accusatory for we both know these were events beyond us as people. It is just not thrown into my face as of now. You are a young man tufta, you were not even born in those days. All you know is what you have read and have been told. For my self. Yes I am in years, yes I still remember the war as a child. I lived in an occupied country with our military present and the conversations overheard from family members serving in the SS, it was not embarassment, but with pride to see them. I knew of the war to our east and for that matter, it was around the compass for we were surrounded by enimies, but our military would protect us. Yes I must work at my age, for due to your generation, a replacement will not be provided. I know and understand what is lacking from my two years working at our Bonn office in personnel. Yes tufta, we have now the opportunity for free exchange for mutual benefit. You would benefit with knowledge and experience from the other side of our wall on my side. I would have benefit of understanding of your self as representative of your side of the divide of mountain, of your feelings and reasoning. But, this door is very close to closing, it is to you to decide for the direction we shall proceed from this point forwarded. Charles |
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tufta
Freshman Pole
Posts: 45
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Post by tufta on May 18, 2008 5:55:49 GMT -7
But, this door is very close to closing, it is to you to decide for the direction we shall proceed from this point forwarded.
Charles[/quote]
Whatever you wish. I have done nothing wrong. I presented current material from the front pages of Polish press. You have reacted even if you didn't have anything substantial to say. Reacted with disguised insults, half-truths, rage and hatred. But this will not stop me from presenting whatever I find worth doing so if I decide to do so. If you don't like something I post just ignore it, just as others tired of this matters can do. You don't have to discuss the things that irritiate you. There're more than 300 members of this board. Please don't speak for them if they know everything or don't want to know anything about history or about the front page Polish news. And if you speak, try to be keep at least basic standards, because otherwise I will have to ignore your replies.
Besides, you overestimate the common knowledge about history. As one of Polish commentators - Piotr Semka wrote, Poles are fully aware that Germans during Warsaw uprising committed war crimes and that they have performed genocide on civil population. Unfortunately, this truth never reached world public opinion, because crimes committed in Warsaw never have been judged. In times of Polish People's Republic communist authorities did not care about exhibiting memory of Warsaw Uprising. And due to forbearance of German court, the perpetrator of the massacre of metropolitan district Wola - Heinz Reinefahrt, never been judged. Before he died in German Federal Republic he has managed to be a mayor of small village, and a representative in a local parliament of Schleswig-Holstein. The findings of Uprising Museum create a good chance to make this knowledge more widespread. Just as the process of Klaus Barbie made knowledge about Nazi crimes in France widespread.
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Post by kaima on May 18, 2008 8:45:07 GMT -7
Whatever you wish. I have done nothing wrong. In English we say that the Lady who proclaims her virtue before it is even questions brings that virtue into question. Speaking as a non-Pole and non-German, I would say it certainly appears you have a German problem. Not for the topics or the news you present, but in you constantly picking a fight with Charles no matter what he chooses to say. It seems you are playing agent provocateur. Now Charles has been around here a long, long time and I believe he is most welcome here because he provides a fresh perspective and an honest perspective on many world events. He knows both the European world and American worlds and ... who knows what else? He does seem to have a unique background, and for the years he has experienced, I would say he is a transition generation of Germans. It seems ineffectual for you to try to assign all past German ills and sins of the last 1000 years to Charles. It would seem most productive for you to continue to present your ideas and news, discuss comments as you value them from your perspective, and refrain from attacking the people who do respond. That certainly will promote a wider exchange of ideas, which is why many of us enjoy this forum. Kai |
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tufta
Freshman Pole
Posts: 45
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Post by tufta on May 18, 2008 12:33:40 GMT -7
Whatever you wish. I have done nothing wrong. In English we say that the Lady who proclaims her virtue before it is even questions brings that virtue into question. Speaking as a non-Pole and non-German, I would say it certainly appears you have a German problem. Not for the topics or the news you present, but in you constantly picking a fight with Charles no matter what he chooses to say. It seems you are playing agent provocateur. Now Charles has been around here a long, long time and I believe he is most welcome here because he provides a fresh perspective and an honest perspective on many world events. He knows both the European world and American worlds and ... who knows what else? He does seem to have a unique background, and for the years he has experienced, I would say he is a transition generation of Germans. It seems ineffectual for you to try to assign all past German ills and sins of the last 1000 years to Charles. It would seem most productive for you to continue to present your ideas and news, discuss comments as you value them from your perspective, and refrain from attacking the people who do respond. That certainly will promote a wider exchange of ideas, which is why many of us enjoy this forum. Kai Kai, I just can't believe my eyes. I will not get into details, but let me just ask you – would you give me ONE example of my attack on Charles. And ONE example of assigning all past German ills and sins of the last 1000 years to Charles. Please do it. Because from my perspective it looks as it was I who was attacked after posting news in this thread. The news that have nothing to do with Charlels. Yes, my sin is that after being attacked for the kind of news I presented, I provided kind of social mirror, responding in a way which could make visible the arrogance I encountered. The arrogance is not lesser if provided by an interesting person, who have been with you for a long time. Thank you anyway for your encouragment to remain here. P.S, Your English saying suggest the English are not that gentlemanly towards the women as we are  |
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on May 18, 2008 14:57:32 GMT -7
Charles, I have come back for a while to talk seriously to you.  I didn`t do it a dozen weeks ago when I was leaving this forum and that was a mistake, I suppose. Today, it seems obvious you are intent on provoking one more self-exile of another Polish member of the forum which names itself Polish too. Your attitude was the cause of self-exile of a few members some time ago, now you are repeating the same procedure. If you don`t remember, let me remind you there was certain discussion after which Livia left, and German Polish history was mentioned there. Here is your last post to her: jagahost.proboards79.com/index.cgi?board=generalpoland&action=display&thread=3786&page=5#37232Later you hollered at Hollister, without German Polish background, but fortunately she forgave you your silly behavior and didn`t resign. Are you going to heller at another member now? jagahost.proboards79.com/index.cgi?board=misc&action=display&thread=297&page=1#2486I think we need to talk about it once and for all, so that you could understand that you are in the POLISH forum and Poles who participate here are vividly interested in the history of WW2 and it is their natural inclination. If you try to change their ways, you will only suffer a defeat, the same defeat that Germans suffered during WW2. But before Germans were defeated, they burnt half Europe and murdered millions of people, and in the same way, before you sustain your defeat trying to silence Poles here, you will burn this forum and leave ruins. Don`t you realise this? Now, let`s get down to details: Well, here we go once again, I should have known. If you are to piss on my country, then please do it correctly. Nobody pisses on your country. That is a discussion about history. it appears here and also in other forums, where Poles are members. No, the world isn`t informed. German death camps are repeatedly called Polish camps and Polish diplomats have to intervene, already 70 times this year. polandsite.proboards104.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=33&page=3#2271It isn`t only history as long as German and other war criminals are still alive. Rude but efficient! Is it the only thing you can say about SS? As far as I know, SS was declared the criminal organization during Nurnberg trials. Do you suggest that victorious powers were unfair about SS??? No, it`s a wrong thinking. The correct one should go this way: if not for German lousy devotion to their leaders, nothing like that would have happened. Germans have wonderful traits but one which proves disastrous is German obedience and readiness to do everything what their Chancellor or Fuhrer orders them to do. Fuhrer Hitler ordered his fellow Germans to go and conquer Europe and subdue nations. And they followed happily because they believed in him and were obedient in German style.That is why WW2 broke out. Dont`t you understand it? Don`t you realise that because of this trait it was possible for Germans to start and wage for a long time two major wars in Europe? My dear Germanic friend, what is the sense of this lengthy presentation of Dirlewanger`s unit? It is worthless for basic reason - it says nothing about incredible crimes it committed in Warsaw, like participating in the execution of 50.000 civilians in Wola district within 2 days. Let`s see what your presentation says about it: The regiment was next assigned to the forces under von dem Bach who were battling the Polish Home Army that had occupied much of Warsaw. It went into action on August 5, 1944, as part of the Police Brigade directed by SS-Gruppenfuehrer Heinz
Reinfarth. It completed its role in the destruction of Polish opposition in early September, and spent the next month
watching the Soviets across the Vistula. The regiment left Warsaw 648 men strong.
Do you understand now why it is worthless? Nobody is trying to provoke you. That`s a simple history discussion. Do you want to hide historical facts? Hush, hush, Germans did nothing? Yes, old and middle-aged Poles who know history hate Germans for what they did in Poland during WW2. Isn`t it natural? It is natural and can be excused because they lost their relatives and their houses were burned. What would Germans think of Poles if the situation had reversed? At the same time those Poles admire German discipline, quality of work and organizational skills which allowed Germans to prosper after WW2. Isn`t it natural?? Charles, what infantile arguments! Now you are trying to put the blame on Polish army for the lost war. Let me remind you that Poles had two enemies at the time: Germany and USSR. DO you know a country which is able to prepare itself and successfully repel the invasion of two militaristic superpowers? And it happened in September 1939 that Germany allied with the USSR invaded and partitioned Poland. And nothing could be done- the situation was hopeless, so hopeless that France and Britain cleverly abstained from giving Poland active aid. hahahahahaha Even France with its powerful army, aided by several Western countries, was conquered by Germans in 1940, so why are you using such naive arguments that Poland was not prepared? Again you seem to be transferring the blame in self-excuse style. It looks as if you tried to excuse Germans - Hitler had to start WW2 in order to avoid the nasty fate that the French desired for Germans? Repulsive, yes. Every educated Poles considers your texts repulsive, even if we know they aim at provocation. But truthful?? I seriously doubt it. Most people do appreciate your presence here. Me too. It is only your strange views on "honourable" SS and your attempts to silence Polish members that bother me and a few Poles here. Why here? Did USA, Canada, Holland and other countries lose 6 million people like Poland did? Their combined total losses never exceeded sole Polish losses. Were the capitals of their countries razed to the ground like Warsaw was, where you can still see the traces of war on buildings? polandsite.proboards104.com/index.cgi?board=polishhistory&action=display&thread=179&page=1#1206polandsite.proboards104.com/index.cgi?board=polishhistory&action=display&thread=179&page=2#2016That`s what Germans did in Warsaw polandsite.proboards104.com/index.cgi?board=polishhistory&action=display&thread=179&page=2#1660The hell that Germans created for Jews and ethnic Poles during the occupation left deeps wounds in Polish psyche which will continue haunting this nation for a while. My mother forced her kids to learn German at the age of 6, it was in 1970s, she always repeated that only the knowledge of German would save us in case of another war, save us from merciless execution and it was true that people who were able to communicate with Germans and beg for mercy were spared on many occasions during the occupation. I believed my mother, was scared shiiitless, so I learnt it. But, you are really fortunate, Charles, because today only old and middle-aged people in Poland still want to remember the war. Younger generations don`t care - they feel modern Europeans and don` t want to reminisce the past, except for a few history fans. Again this admiration for SS? This is really sick! hahahahaha The direction is that when it comes to history, German Polish relations during the war shall be discussed for some years to come in this and other forums. Discussed with less intensity every year, though, because people are dying out and there are other interesting subjects too. The German Polish history is really vital to Poles. If I had to estimate the contents of the historical thread in the forum which is my main interest now, I can say roughly 30% is devoted to WW2, with such topic-focused threads as Forgotten Holocaust or Warsaw Rising. polandsite.proboards104.com/index.cgi?board=polishhistoryAre you going to swim against the mainstream? Or will you try to discourage Poles from speaking out about WW2? Tufta`s last wise reply to your posts proves you sustained a defeat..... He refuses to be hushed..... Charles, you come from the nation who provoked the war, invaded Poland, murdered its elite and all conscious and accidental opposition, turned the rest into slaves and planned to send them to Siberia to free the land for German settlers. . It is high time for you to realise that when there is a mention of German criminal behavior in Poland the best thing you can do is to keep your mouth shut because there is no chance you can convince ethnic Poles that black is white and you are only causing trouble. To sum up, look through this nice thread about Gdansk - Danzig, especially what German rule made of it in 1945 and then what Poles did to rebuild it with their own resources because Germany didn`t pay reparations then. polandsite.proboards104.com/index.cgi?board=photographsfrompoland&action=display&thread=156They are paying today, as EU funds, and that`s OK. Better late than never ;D |
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