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Post by rdywenur on May 20, 2008 8:45:00 GMT -7
Gee boys. I thought WWII was over in 1945. Don't you think you guys should concentrate on what can make Poland a better place to live than to live in the past. I think it is time to move forward and you will never be able to do that unless you are in the "present". How is this thinking helping your country.
Tufta ...you never introduced yourself on this forum so I don't know anything about you. But just reading your posts I find it hard to believe you are just from Poland. Your posts are not written as that of a Pole or a foreigner. Some of the phrases you choose are not spoken by a native Pole or foreigner no matter how well he has a grasp of the English language. Leaves me suspect to your true identity. Just an observance and nothing really related to this thread.
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Post by kaima on May 20, 2008 9:40:18 GMT -7
Pawian, if it is really as you say, the reason is simple. It is conscious policy of the board authorities. I tasted it already from the hand of Kai. Kai, do you hear me? Tufta, Yes I hear you. What do you expect me to comment on? The thread is rather ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Carry on and continue with your Polish topics, they are good ones! Kai
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Post by Atlantis5 on May 20, 2008 10:45:57 GMT -7
Tufta, Thanks for letting us all know about the "Executioners of Warsaw alive". An important concept that none of us can afford to ever loose is that our respective countries have all done things we can look back in hind-sight and say should NEVER have been done, but they were, they have been, and more than likely, in the total insanity of war will occur again! And those that are alive that committed those acts of insanity need to be held accountable. This discussion trail also brings up the issue of how do we discuss openly things like the atrocities of Warsaw, Nanking, Dresden, etc, etc WITHOUT taking it personally? How can we as adults look at FACTS in history that are to us today morally offensive and not to even try to defend them? How do we realize and accept that our countries TODAY are not the same as 50, 75, 100 or 200 years ago? Does anyone think that the United States of 2008 is the same as the United States of 1908? That the Germany of today is the same as 1933? That the Poland of today is the same Poland of 1958? I cannot condone a lot of the things my country has done in the past, and cannot and will not accept personal responsibility for things that were done in the name of my country that I had no hand in. My God, my country does things now that I'm not proud of, but I will not accept the responsibility for that! For instance, is there any doubt in anyones mind that the American Revolutionaries of 1776 would be labeled terrorists today? I hope this raises the discussions to a much less personal and far more theoretical level. Wayne, I respect your attempt to hush emotions. You are an honourable man. However, there is one major flaw in your post. Why did you address it to Tufta, while it should have been wholly addressed to Charles??? Everything what you are writing about concerns not Tufta`s standard post pertaining to the history of WW2 but Charles` harsh response to it. BTW, I consider it really funny that Charles respended so emotionally to the post which discussed the unpunished war criminals. Why did Charles react in that way? ;D Any idea? Dear Mr. Pawian This is to inform and advise you of the currant and present situation in regards to our past and currant post exchanges. My concerns do not centre upon your self, nor of my self, but to the maintenance and continuance of the quality of the forum. It is to us for the responsibility of policing our selves in the spirit commensurate to the common good. It is my decision that all exchanges between us shall be terminated for the present and foreseeable future, for will be not any constructive conclusion to be gained. I hold no grievance to you nor of any actual issues, but to only disappointment. Within the reality of interpersonal relations and human frailty, some bumps in life must be expected, of this I am confident that you will agree. With friendly Greetings Charles
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tufta
Freshman Pole
Posts: 45
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Post by tufta on May 20, 2008 11:57:50 GMT -7
Rdywenur, You think prosecution of those committing war crimes against Polish citizens makes Poland 'move forward' impossible. I think we can do both, whatever 'moving forward' means. May I ask if that would apply to United States as well? Would you suggest US should resign from prosecuting crimes committed on American citizens? So America can 'move forward'?
***
You know much more about me than I know about you. I only know you are a (feisty) woman, you live in New York State and you like humor and riddles (so do I). You know I am a Polish guy, I live in central Poland, I have kids (I have wife too) I am in the late forties. And you even know I have been a visitor to your beautiful and vast country. With time little pieces of information grow in a natural manner.
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tufta
Freshman Pole
Posts: 45
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Post by tufta on May 20, 2008 12:04:12 GMT -7
Pawian, if it is really as you say, the reason is simple. It is conscious policy of the board authorities. I tasted it already from the hand of Kai. Kai, do you hear me? Tufta, Yes I hear you. What do you expect me to comment on? The thread is rather ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Carry on and continue with your Polish topics, they are good ones! Kai Kai, beneath your nick stands administrator sign. And you have brought forward certain accusations. So I expect your would somehow react to my request. Or say you will not. Stand for your words or, perhaps, perhaps, say – oops, I went too far. Do something. Act. I need your help, administrator, so we can 'move forward', which I sincerely wish to do To remind: In English we say that the Lady who proclaims her virtue before it is even questions brings that virtue into question. Speaking as a non-Pole and non-German, I would say it certainly appears you have a German problem. Not for the topics or the news you present, but in you constantly picking a fight with Charles no matter what he chooses to say. It seems you are playing agent provocateur. Now Charles has been around here a long, long time and I believe he is most welcome here because he provides a fresh perspective and an honest perspective on many world events. He knows both the European world and American worlds and ... who knows what else? He does seem to have a unique background, and for the years he has experienced, I would say he is a transition generation of Germans. It seems ineffectual for you to try to assign all past German ills and sins of the last 1000 years to Charles. It would seem most productive for you to continue to present your ideas and news, discuss comments as you value them from your perspective, and refrain from attacking the people who do respond. That certainly will promote a wider exchange of ideas, which is why many of us enjoy this forum. Kai Kai, I just can't believe my eyes. I will not get into details, but let me just ask you – would you give me ONE example of my attack on Charles. And ONE example of assigning all past German ills and sins of the last 1000 years to Charles. Please do it. Because from my perspective it looks as it was I who was attacked after posting news in this thread. The news that have nothing to do with Charlels. Yes, my sin is that after being attacked for the kind of news I presented, I provided kind of social mirror, responding in a way which could make visible the arrogance I encountered. The arrogance is not lesser if provided by an interesting person, who have been with you for a long time. Thank you anyway for your encouragment to remain here. P.S, Your English saying suggest the English are not that gentlemanly towards the women as we are
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tufta
Freshman Pole
Posts: 45
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Post by tufta on May 20, 2008 12:06:43 GMT -7
Wayne, I respect your attempt to hush emotions. You are an honourable man. However, there is one major flaw in your post. Why did you address it to Tufta, while it should have been wholly addressed to Charles??? Everything what you are writing about concerns not Tufta`s standard post pertaining to the history of WW2 but Charles` harsh response to it. BTW, I consider it really funny that Charles respended so emotionally to the post which discussed the unpunished war criminals. Why did Charles react in that way? ;D Any idea? Dear Mr. Pawian This is to inform and advise you of the currant and present situation in regards to our past and currant post exchanges. My concerns do not centre upon your self, nor of my self, but to the maintenance and continuance of the quality of the forum. It is to us for the responsibility of policing our selves in the spirit commensurate to the common good. It is my decision that all exchanges between us shall be terminated for the present and foreseeable future, for will be not any constructive conclusion to be gained. I hold no grievance to you nor of any actual issues, but to only disappointment. Within the reality of interpersonal relations and human frailty, some bumps in life must be expected, of this I am confident that you will agree. With friendly Greetings Charles Charles, you would need this letter be resend on official paper and signed personally in order to make it applicable
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on May 20, 2008 13:08:20 GMT -7
Pawian, if it is really as you say, the reason is simple. It is conscious policy of the board authorities. I tasted it already from the hand of Kai. Kai, do you hear me? Yes, I was wondering about it too, after Kaima and I had a series of clashes in January this year. It was then when I started packing my toys and looking to move somewhere else. ;D I received similar comments from him, almost the same as you did. It is very funny indeed to read them once again but addressed to another person. ;D ;D ;D ;D It is hard to decide whether it is conscious policy. If it is, it probably grew out of subliminal desire to have a suave, politically correct forum where people discuss safe subjects only, i.e. ones which are not likely to cause too hot disputes. Polish history with its German or Jewish component certainly evokes emotions which are considered harmful here. In result, people who actively participate in such discussions, are considered troublemakers. ;D ;D I think you are one already hahahahahahahahahaha One remark: on most occasions Charles is a nice agreeable guy, but sometimes has his bouts of hurt German pride and then hot disputes follow. If you manage to live through his Sturm and Drang period, things will come back to normal and conversations with him will become simple pleasure again. So, be patient and everything will be fine here again.
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on May 20, 2008 13:20:18 GMT -7
Gee boys. I thought WWII was over in 1945. Don't you think you guys should concentrate on what can make Poland a better place to live than to live in the past. I think it is time to move forward and you will never be able to do that unless you are in the "present". How is this thinking helping your country. Rdy, we are really concentrated on what can make Poland a better place. I work hard, 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, so does Tufta, I suppose. I AM actually making this country better, I fully realise it. However, after this enormous sacrifice put into the improvement of my beloved homeland, I would like to relax and do things which are of interest to me. One of these things is history. When I discuss history, I feel so pleased. ;D ;D ;D I suppose Tufta too. Is talking history after work detrimental to the good of my country? Rather not. Well, I am not sure. What I know, though, for sure, is that it is certainly very beneficial for me. hahahahahaha If the phrases he uses are spoken neither by a native Pole nor by a foreigner, who might he be? Hmm, is he an alien? A Body Snatcher? D ;D ;D ;D PS. Are you suggesting the invasion has just started???
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Pawian
European
Have you seen my frog?
Posts: 3,266
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Post by Pawian on May 20, 2008 13:30:25 GMT -7
My concerns do not centre upon your self, nor of my self, but to the maintenance and continuance of the quality of the forum. It is to us for the responsibility of policing our selves in the spirit commensurate to the common good. The common good you propose is to cut down on history posts, especially those about Polish German relations. Simply speaking, censorship. I don`t think any ethnic Pole or a democratically oriented American will agree to it. Being German you think it is so simple to impose certain rules and people will observe them and there will be peace und Ordnung. Charles, life is more complicated than that. I say it from an unruly Pole`s point of view. ;D ;D ;D Of course you are wrong. We have already reached a very nice platform for mutual communication. We are not abusing each other, see? It is a great progress. I hold no grievance to you, neither disappointment. I accept you as a person you are, although I think you could ease up on them rude but efficient SS guys for a while It is a pleasure to talk to you even if we are riding over rough bumps. Pa pa pa całusów sto dwadzieścia dwa!
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Post by rdywenur on May 20, 2008 14:46:18 GMT -7
Ha!!!! a few weeks ago I would have wondered what this meant but since that time I now do.
I am running late for a class so will be back later to respond to the rest of the posts. pa pa (but I don't kiss strangers) ;D
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Post by tuftabis on May 21, 2008 7:15:11 GMT -7
The common good you propose is to cut down on history posts, especially those about Polish German relations. ... which is impossible. It is impossible to talk about European problems and news under the Polish Culture banner without occasional reference to German past and presence. I think that at least Americans of Polish origin could realize that. And the past and present of Germany has not only bright sides, dark ones too. So, the question is if the unspoken rule of this place is we can talk about the good and bad sides of Poland, USA, Israel, Russia, you name it , but Germany may be depicted in bright colors only. And now, please, may I have your special attention. Because if such a rule exists, you're shooting your own foot. You treat Germany in a 'special' manner, in another way than the majority of states are treated. I assure you all that todays Germany does not require special treatment. I hope my point is clearly put. To Kai, I see you have a problem with answering my request. Well, I can understand that. Let's forget it and move forward. Pozdrav! ;D
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Post by tuftabis on May 21, 2008 7:24:11 GMT -7
pa pa (but I don't kiss strangers) ;D[/quote]
Rdywenur, we're not strangers anymore!!! So?
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Post by Atlantis5 on May 21, 2008 7:46:52 GMT -7
Tufta
I agree with you in as much to we should not have censorship upon the forum. For this is a freedom we must as people maintain. But also to the individual is the responsibility to be mindful of others.
For in respect, I have for the most part, remained very mindful to any sensitivities of our Polish friends and with this in mind, have not broached some subjects of possible offense. Perhaps I have been overly careful with under-estimating the capacity of understanding of the membership.
But, as you have proposed, freedom of presentation perhaps is a very good thing.
I have over time, have learnt of some very differences in mindset of your self, and of my own, and of the American mindset. {The Americans are a very progressive people to never be underestimated}.
That what you wish to say of the war, is fine with me, if fine with the membership. As in same token, will open the door way to my description of our former government operations in Poland and the occupied lands of the war years. For some of those operations were resumed by the then Soviet Government.
For communication is a two way process, I see much promise to be realized in future exchanges.
Charles
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Post by kaima on May 21, 2008 9:38:10 GMT -7
The common good you propose is to cut down on history posts, especially those about Polish German relations. ... which is impossible. It is impossible to talk about European problems and news under the Polish Culture banner without occasional reference to German past and presence. I think that at least Americans of Polish origin could realize that. And the past and present of Germany has not only bright sides, dark ones too. So, the question is if the unspoken rule of this place is we can talk about the good and bad sides of Poland, USA, Israel, Russia, you name it , but Germany may be depicted in bright colors only. And now, please, may I have your special attention. Because if such a rule exists, you're shooting your own foot. You treat Germany in a 'special' manner, in another way than the majority of states are treated. I assure you all that todays Germany does not require special treatment. I hope my point is clearly put. To Kai, I see you have a problem with answering my request. Well, I can understand that. Let's forget it and move forward. Pozdrav! ;D Good Tufta, let us move forward. I have no intention of getting into tit-for-tat arguments and that is where I saw this headed, so I was planning on ignoring it. You mentioned once I am an administrator; let me clarify that that is only because I am in an ideal time zone to squelch spam from China that comes in on occasion. Once I also removed some obscenities and cussing, but that is another bag of worms. The forum is Jaga's and she sets the rules and runs the show. The other moderators and I just go along and try to mind out own topics of responsibility. As far as I know there is only a very high regard for diverse opinions on this forum and no rule limiting commentary, or specifically as you mention above, no rule saying be nice to Germans and avoid nasty history. For the most part it has been hashed over so many times that it is boring to most of us, so you may elicit little response, even when one (as on this new thread) is justified. In America you may have learned the guiding principle that a discussion may be most effectively conducted by addressing the issue and by specifically not attacking any person presenting a position. So let us move on, and do not be surprised if I and others do not feel obligated to comment on or agree with everything said. Kai
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Post by tuftabis on May 23, 2008 8:55:11 GMT -7
Source 'Rzeczpospolita'. The executioners of Warsaw will be prosecuted. Members of Dirlewanger's brigade, the executioners of Warsaw district Wola, will be prosecuted and their military pensions taken away. Simon Wiesenthal Center supports IPN, Polish Institute of National Remembrance. The neonazis attempted to wheedle out the list of SS-men from Warsaw Uprising Museum. Last week 'Rzeczpospolita' daily disclosed the existence of a list of criminals, the members of a German SS brigade which took part in the slaughter of Wola district in Warsaw. The list is in possession of Warsaw Uprising Museum. -- Oskar Dirlewanger's unit was a band of ruthless, degenerated murderers. Making them face the administration of justice would be great achievement --underlines Efraim Zuroff, head of Jerusalem Wiesenthal Center. --We can not allow that these murderers quietly live on cost of German state. He assured Wiesenthal Center shall provide every help in the hunt for these criminals and taking back their pensions. The list consists of over 70 names. From other archives still arrive documents concerning other formations, which fought against Poles. Museum director Jan Ołdakowski has already passed on the list of Dirlewanger brigade members to IPN . Brigade members still alive will be questioned by German public prosecutors. - List of the criminals has evoked enormous interest in Germany. Probably all significant German media representatives were here since the publication in Rzeczpospolita – says director Ołdakowski. But it is not just the media. The day after publication a man called us, introduced himself by name and presented himself as a representative of one of publishing houses. He was trying to establish how much do we know about the living members of the brigade and applied for access to the brigade card index - says Hanna Nowak-Radziejowska from the museum. It was however found the man is a neonazi, and the publishing house he represents is actually 'Deutsche Stimme', organ of the NPD, the strongest neonazi party now operating in Germany. Further reading: Simon Wiesenthal Center - often abbreviated SWC), with headquarters in Los Angeles, California, was established in 1977. According to its mission statement, it is "an international Jewish human rights organization dedicated to repairing the world one step at a time. The Center’s multifaceted mission generates changes through the Snider Social Action Institute and education by confronting antisemitism, hate and terrorism, promoting human rights and dignity, standing with Israel, defending the safety of Jews worldwide, and teaching the lessons of the Holocaust for future generations." The Center is accredited as a non-governmental organization (NGO) at the United Nations, the UNESCO, and the Council of Europe en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Wiesenthal_CenterNPD - the National Democratic Party of Germany is a German nationalist political party. The party, founded on 28 November 1964, is a successor to the German Reich Party. An ARD-led poll states that the majority of the population in Germany considers the NPD to be undemocratic and damaging to the image of the country. The NPD is viewed by its opponents and the mainstream media as a de facto neo-Nazi organization. The party opposes the increasing number of non-whites, Jews, and Muslims living in Germany, and Voigt has held meetings with various white nationalist ideologues, such as the American David Duke, a former member of the Louisiana House of Representatives and former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. The German federal intelligence agency Verfassungsschutz classifies the NPD as a "threat to the constitutional order" because of its platform and philosophy. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Party_of_Germany
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