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Post by tuftabis on May 23, 2008 9:12:51 GMT -7
For the most part it has been hashed over so many times that it is boring to most of us, so you may elicit little response, even when one (as on this new thread) is justified. In America you may have learned the guiding principle that a discussion may be most effectively conducted by addressing the issue and by specifically not attacking any person presenting a position. Kai Kai, if that's not a tit-for-tat argument you're conducting, then what is it. Let each reader of this forum decide privately if they are bored with hashing the brand new data on the criminals of war, or rather by the constant hashing the how is Bush a terrible president subject. Good you've agreed the news in this thread were justified. And do not include ascribing all the German evil deeds to Charles, etc, etc, etc. In Slovakia you may have learned the principles of discussion were founded in ancient Greece and Rome. Also, that false accusations are among the most detrimental to any disourse.
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 30, 2008 3:52:11 GMT -7
Follow-up. Executioners of Warsaw have been found. The surviving members of a 7,500-man German SS military unit have been found. 10 persons of the unit which was called Dirlewanger's battalion, and known for committing the worst atrocities and crimes of World War II, have been traced. This quick action was done by German criminal police prosecutors and the office in Ludwigsburg devoted to prosecution of the German crimes in 1933-1945 period. Half of the already traced men, members of the criminal and degenerated SS units were already interrogated. It was Polish historians who found the 72 names long list and postwar addresses of the SS unit commanded by Dirlewanger. Polish officials sent the file to the national war-crimes prosecutions office at Ludwigsburg asking for assistance in localizing the criminals and finding out if they can be prosecuted for their crimes in Warsaw in 1944 and Eastern Poland earlier during the course of war. These included mass murder and rape, putting people in barns and setting them on fire, slaughtering doctors, nurses and patients at hospitals or clearing mine fields by forcing civilians to walk on them. Actual punishing the SS-men for their actions seems unlikely , as it might be impossible to find the living witnesses of the massacres committed. In 1986 this same office in Ludwigsburg received a United Nations' list of German military criminals committing war crimes in Poland during WWII, including the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising 1943 and Warsaw Uprising 1944. The Ludwigsburg office sent the list to prosecutor's office in Hanover, northern Germany, with an ad notation pointing that the documentation of crimes committed by the persons on the list is in possession of UN commission. Due to reasons unknown the Hanover prosecutors office never asked for this documentation and refused to conduct the investigation. The present stance and conduct of Ludwigsburg national war crimes office may demonstrate a blessed changed in the attitude of German state and its civil service which underwent during the past 20 years. With the past and last generations of Germans infected in their early life with Nazi-Socialist doctrine gradually fading away from the service, the paths of German state finally become clear. This is especially appreciated in Central and Eastern Europe which was Nazi Germany's main target and defeat.
Prosecutor Riedel from Stuttgart office, southern Germany, which has interrogated two SS-criminals from Dirlewanger battalion, bearing the names Erwin H. and Ruppert Z., says: -I am not able to say why the investigation wasn't started in 1986 in Hanover. To put it delicately, it surely wasn't according to the rules of existing law or according to the professional rules. I am really sorry for that-
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Post by archivist on Dec 30, 2008 11:14:39 GMT -7
After 63 years, it is time to forgive and forget. The war, that is. But you can neither forgive nor forget atrocities committed on any side. Members of my family died during the war, but I have no desire to punish German personnel for simply fighting a war. But torturers, rapists and mass murderers should be punished - even now. If these people get away with it now, others will be encouraged to do it in the future. If, on the other hand, would be war criminals realise they will have to look over their shoulders for the rest of their lives, they may think twice about committing atrocities in the first place.
Neville
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Post by tuftabis on Dec 31, 2008 1:29:19 GMT -7
After 63 years, it is time to forgive and forget. The war, that is. But you can neither forgive nor forget atrocities committed on any side. Members of my family died during the war, but I have no desire to punish German personnel for simply fighting a war. But torturers, rapists and mass murderers should be punished - even now. If these people get away with it now, others will be encouraged to do it in the future. If, on the other hand, would be war criminals realise they will have to look over their shoulders for the rest of their lives, they may think twice about committing atrocities in the first place. Neville Neville, I agree with you totally, well said. The only point I would put differently is in the first sentence. I would say it is time to get over it. We are not, noone in fact is, entitled to 'forgive' in the name of the murdered or tortured. And there's almost noone alive who is to be given forgiveness, they are almost all dead now. And then there are material losses of the war. Some things, towns, are destroyed, but would you believe some artifacts are still in foreign hands. Should we forget about them too?
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Post by archivist on Dec 31, 2008 6:13:02 GMT -7
Tuftabis,
I accept your correction; you phrased it better than me, without changing my original meaning.
Neville
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