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Post by pieter on Feb 6, 2022 4:11:28 GMT -7
Jaga, Poles, Russians, Afghans, Chechens and others are fierce as well. Fighting for independence does not mean that you have to be crual, commit war crimes and be inhumane. Slaughtering Poles and Jews have nothing to do with Independence. They had a policy of ethnic cleansing in their area's of Volhynia and Galicia. Other Ukrainians hid Poles and Jews for murdering, raping and looting gangs of UPA soldiers and officers. What did these innocent Polish women, children, elderly and men had to do with Ukrainian independence. Other Ukrainains fought in the Red army, were NKVD member, Soviet partisans and etc. The Second World War in Central- and Eastern-Europe was complicated due to all the factors, parties, groups, fractions (factions), militia's different armies and war criminals (German and Austrian nazi, Soviet Russian and Ukrainian, Ukrainian Nazi collaborators and etc.) www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/1941-nkvd-prison-massacres-western-ukraineThis link (URL) is a good explanation of your statement "Ukrainians are fierce and they were allied with Nazi, but this was also for the independence." It is true that many peoples in times of Independence struggle can be fierce, fanatic, cruel and inhumane towards people whom they consider alien to their territory, claimed lands and historical ancestral home. Cheers, Pieter
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Post by kaima on Feb 9, 2022 16:41:54 GMT -7
How the nation of Ukraine ranks: 1st in Europe in proven recoverable reserves of uranium ores; 2nd place in Europe and 10th place in the world in terms of titanium ore reserves; 2nd place in the world in terms of explored reserves of manganese ores (2.3 billion tons, or 12% of the world's reserves); 2nd largest iron ore reserves in the world (30 billion tons); 2nd place in Europe in terms of mercury ore reserves; 3rd place in Europe (13th place in the world) in shale gas reserves (22 trillion cubic meters) 4th in the world by the total value of natural resources; 7th place in the world in coal reserves (33.9 billion tons) Ukraine is an agricultural country: 1st in Europe in terms of arable land area; 3rd place in the world by the area of black soil (25% of world's volume); 1st place in the world in exports of sunflower and sunflower oil; 2nd place in the world in barley production and 4th place in barley exports; 3rd largest producer and 4th largest exporter of corn in the world; 4th largest producer of potatoes in the world; 5th largest rye producer in the world; 5th place in the world in bee production (75,000 tons); 8th place in the world in wheat exports; 9th place in the world in the production of chicken eggs; 16th place in the world in cheese exports. Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600 million people. Ukraine is an industrialized country: 1st in Europe in ammonia production; 2-е Europe's and 4th largest natural gas pipeline system in the world (142.5 bln cubic meters of gas throughput capacity in the EU); 3rd largest in Europe and 8th largest in the world in terms of installed capacity of nuclear power plants; 3rd place in Europe and 11th in the world in terms of rail network length (21,700 km); 3rd place in the world (after the U.S. and France) in production of locators and locating equipment; 3rd largest iron exporter in the world 4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants in the world; 4th world's largest manufacturer of rocket launchers; 4th place in the world in clay exports 4th place in the world in titanium exports 8th place in the world in exports of ores and concentrates; 9th place in the world in exports of defense industry products; 10th largest steel producer in the world (32.4 million tons).
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Ukraine
Feb 10, 2022 3:33:29 GMT -7
Post by Jaga on Feb 10, 2022 3:33:29 GMT -7
Kai, we know Ukraine mainly for its black fertile soils, steppe, coal mining and interesting history - like kossaks
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Ukraine
Feb 10, 2022 9:17:29 GMT -7
Post by pieter on Feb 10, 2022 9:17:29 GMT -7
Ron,Economy of UkraineThe economy of Ukraine is an emerging free-market economy. It grew rapidly from 2000 until 2008 when the Great Recession began worldwide and reached Ukraine as the 2008–2009 Ukrainian financial crisis. The economy recovered in 2010 and continued improving until 2013. From 2014 to 2015, the Ukrainian economy suffered a downturn, with GDP in 2015 being slightly above half of its value in 2013. In 2016, the economy again started to grow. By 2018, the Ukrainian economy was growing rapidly, and reached almost 80% of its size in 2008.
The depression during the 1990s included hyperinflation and a fall in economic output to less than half of the GDP of the preceding Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. GDP growth was recorded for the first time in 2000, and continued for eight years. This growth was halted by the global financial crisis of 2008, but the Ukrainian economy recovered and achieved positive GDP growth in the first quarter of 2010. In the early 2010s, Ukraine was noted for possessing many of the components of a major European economy: rich farmlands, a well-developed industrial base, highly trained labour, and a good education system. However, by October 2013, the Ukrainian economy lapsed once again into a recession. The previous summer, Ukrainian exports to Russia substantially declined due to stricter border and customs control by Russia. The early 2014 annexation of Crimea by Russia, and the War in Donbass that started in the spring of 2014 severely damaged Ukraine's economy and severely damaged two of the country's most industrial regions. In 2013, Ukraine saw zero GDP growth. Ukraine's economy shrank by 6.8% in 2014, and this continued with a 12% decline in GDP in 2015. In April 2017, the World Bank stated that Ukraine's economic growth rate was 2.3% in 2016, thus ending the recession. Despite these improvements, the IMF reported in 2018, that of all the countries in Europe, Ukraine had the lowest GDP per capita.
In April 2020, the World Bank reported that economic growth was solid at 3.2 percent in 2019, led by a good agricultural harvest and sectors dependent on domestic consumption. Household consumption grew by 11.9 percent in 2019, supported by sizable remittance inflows and a resumption of consumer lending, while domestic trade and agriculture grew by 3.4 and 1.3 percent, respectively. However, in 2020 GDP collapsed by 4.4 percent due to COVID-19 pandemic.Ukraine’s modern economy Ukraine’s modern economy was developed as an integral part of the larger economy of the Soviet Union. While receiving a smaller share (16 percent in the 1980s) of the Soviet Union’s investment funds and producing a greater proportion of goods with a lower set price, Ukraine was able to produce a larger share of total output in the industrial (17 percent) and especially the agricultural (21 percent) sectors of the Soviet economy. In effect, a centrally directed transfer of wealth from Ukraine, amounting to one-fifth of its national income, helped to finance economic development in other parts of the Soviet Union, notably Russia and Kazakhstan.By the late Soviet period, however, the Ukrainian economy was under severe strain, and it contracted sharply early in the independence era. A period of extreme currency inflation in the early 1990s brought great hardship to most of the population. Despite early hopes that Ukrainian economic independence—with the concomitant end to the transfer of funds and resources to other parts of the Soviet Union—would alleviate the declining economy and standard of living, Ukraine entered a period of severe economic decline. Daily life in Ukraine became a struggle, particularly for those living on fixed incomes, as prices rose sharply. Citizens compensated in a number of ways: more than half grew their own food, workers often held two or three jobs, and many acquired basic necessities through a flourishing barter economy. By 1996 Ukraine had achieved a measure of economic stability. Inflation dropped to manageable levels, and the economy’s decline slowed considerably.
At the turn of the 21st century the economy finally began to grow, at least partially as a result of increased ties with Russia. In the early 21st century many young Ukrainians, particularly residents of the country’s rural west, sought employment opportunities abroad. Although such migration sometimes led to localized labour shortages within Ukraine, remittances from the Ukrainian diaspora amounted to some 4 percent of the country’s gross domestic product (GDP).The economy contracted sharply in 2014 as a result of the political crisis that toppled the government of pro-Russian Pres. Viktor Yanukovych. Russia responded to Yanukovych’s ouster by illegally annexing Crimea and fomenting an insurgency in southeastern Ukraine. A cease-fire between the Ukrainian government and Russian-backed forces in February 2015 created a state of frozen conflict, and the ongoing violence shattered daily life in what had been Ukraine’s most productive industrial region.Resources and powerUkraine has extremely rich and complementary mineral resources in high concentrations and close proximity to each other. Rich iron ore reserves located in the vicinity of Kryvyy Rih, Kremenchuk, Bilozerka, Mariupol, and Kerch form the basis of Ukraine’s large iron-and-steel industry. One of the richest areas of manganese-bearing ores in the world is located near Nikopol. Bituminous and anthracite coal used for coke are mined in the Donets Basin. Energy for thermal power stations is obtained using the large reserves of brown coal found in the Dnieper River basin (north of Kryvyy Rih) and the bituminous coal deposits of the Lviv-Volyn basin. The coal mines of Ukraine are among the deepest in Europe. Many of them are considered dangerous because their depth contributes to increased levels of methane; methane-related explosions have killed numerous Ukrainian miners.
Ukraine also has important deposits of titanium ore, bauxite, nepheline (a source of soda), alunite (a source of potash), and mercury (cinnabar, or mercuric sulfide) ores. A large deposit of ozokerite (a natural paraffin wax) occurs near the city of Boryslav. Subcarpathia possesses potassium salt deposits, and both Subcarpathia and the Donets Basin have large deposits of rock salt. Some phosphorites as well as natural sulfur are found in Ukraine.
The three major areas producing natural gas and petroleum in Ukraine are the Subcarpathian region, exploited since the late 19th–early 20th century, and the Dnieper-Donets and Crimean regions, both developed since World War II. Following World War II, the extraction of natural gas in Ukraine soared until it accounted for one-third of the Soviet Union’s total output in the early 1960s. Natural gas production declined after 1975, however, and a similar pattern of growth and exhaustion occurred with Ukraine’s petroleum, ultimately making the republic a net importer of these fuels.Map of Ukraine showing major geological provinces and gas pipelines. Over 50% of Russian gas exports to Western Europe and a significant quantity of its oil pass through Ukraine. Map based on work by Alex Tora (November, 2009) and the National Gas Union of Ukraine.The exploitation of petroleum and natural gas in Ukraine necessitated the creation of an extensive pipeline transport system. One of the first natural gas pipelines in the region opened in the 1920s, linking Dashava to Lviv and then to Kyiv. As a result of the Soviet Union’s commitment to major gas exporting in the late 1960s and early ’70s, two trunk pipelines were laid across Ukraine to bring gas to eastern and western Europe from Siberia and Orenburg in Russia. Petroleum from the Dolyna oil field in western Ukraine is piped some 40 miles (65 km) to a refinery at Drohobych, and oil from fields in eastern Ukraine is piped to a refinery in Kremenchuk. Subsequently, larger petroleum trunk lines were added (some 700 miles [1,100 km]) to supply petroleum from western Siberia to refineries at Lysychansk, Kremenchuk, Kherson, and Odessa, as well as a 420-mile (675-km) segment of the Druzhba (“Friendship”) pipeline, which crosses western Ukraine to supply Siberian oil to other European countries. The pipelines connecting the Siberian oil and gas fields with Europe are a major economic asset for Ukraine, as their importance to Russia gives Ukraine leverage in negotiations over oil and gas imports. However, disputes between Ukraine and Russia have in the past led the latter to cut off its supply temporarily—negatively affecting Ukraine as well as the European Union, which depends on gas and oil from these pipelines.
Ukraine is heavily dependent on fossil fuels and nuclear power for its energy needs. Hydroelectricity accounts for less than 10 percent of the country’s electricity production, and the contribution of other renewable sources is negligible. Although coal production is substantial, Ukraine relies on imported oil and natural gas to satisfy its energy requirements. Thermal power stations are found in all parts of the country, though the largest are in the Donets Basin and along the Dnieper. A third electric energy-producing area is in the vicinity of the Lviv-Volyn coal basin, and in the Transcarpathian region there is a group of several power stations. Nuclear power stations are located near the cities of Khmelnytskyy, Rivne, and Zaporizhzhya, as well as along the Southern Buh River. The severe nuclear accident at one of the Chernobyl reactors in 1986 triggered a powerful environmental movement in Ukraine and spurred the drive toward political independence from the Soviet Union. The last working reactor at Chernobyl was closed in 2000. ManufacturingManufacturing is an extremely important sector of the Ukrainian economy, in terms of productivity and revenue earned. Products manufactured in the country include ferrous metals, transportation equipment and other types of heavy machinery, a variety of chemicals, food products, and other goods.
Ukraine has a major ferrous metals industry and ranks among the top steel producers in the world. Cast iron, rolled steel, and steel pipe are produced mainly in the Donets Basin, which is the industrial heartland of the country.
The country’s heavy industries produce trucks, other automobiles, railway locomotives and freight cars, seagoing vessels, hydroelectric and thermal steam and gas turbines, and electric generators. In addition, residential and industrial construction demands hoisting and transportation equipment and other machinery for the building trades. Dozens of factories, found chiefly in Kharkiv, Odessa, Lviv, and Kherson, produce a wide range of agricultural equipment as well. During the Soviet period, plants in Ukraine assembled rockets and constructed naval vessels, including aircraft carriers. Subsequently, Ukraine emerged as an arms producer in its own right, although efforts have been made since 1991 to convert defense facilities to nonmilitary production. For instance, the Yuzhmash manufacturing concern, which once operated the world’s largest missile plant, in Dnipropetrovsk, now produces civilian agricultural machinery and aerospace technology as well as strategic missile systems.
T he Ukrainian chemical-equipment industry, accounting for one-third of former Soviet production, is mainly concentrated in Kyiv, Sumy, Fastiv, and Korosten. The chemical industry includes coking and the manufacture of coke products, as well as the manufacture of mineral fertilizers, sulfuric acid, synthetic fibres, caustic soda, petrochemicals, photographic chemicals, and pesticides.
One of the most important products of the Ukrainian food-processing industry is sugar (from sugar beets). The production of vegetable oil, mainly from sunflower seeds, is significant as well. Other processed foods include meat, grain, fruit, and dairy products; local fish-processing industries are found in the coastal cities, such as Odessa. Wine comes from the Transcarpathian region and Crimea, where the vintners of the Massandra group are established near Yalta. Ukraine also produces vodka, beer, and other beverages.
Some of the principal products of light industry are textiles (both knitted and woven), ready-to-wear garments, and shoes. In addition, such consumer goods as television sets, refrigerators, and washing machines are produced. Machine-tool and instrument-manufacturing industries also have been developed.
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Ukraine
Feb 10, 2022 14:17:26 GMT -7
Post by pieter on Feb 10, 2022 14:17:26 GMT -7
Ron,
The Ukraine has excellent human resources, raw materials and the best arable land, with the most beautiful and fertile Loess (Löss) ground possible. If there wasn't the geopolitical tension between East and West in a sort of Cold War 0.2 Ukraine would have a great economy, Financial sector, energy position, trade (Import & Export), transport, Tourist and scientific position. But unfortunately layers of history, present day developments and near future occurrences makes the case and the situation of Ukraine complicated, vulnerable and explosive.
The best position was and would be for Ukraine to have good ties with both the West and East, the EU, the USA and the Russian Federation. From 2014 until today Ukraine is in a situation of "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong." Between Russian pressure and expansionism and Western doubt, hesitation, indecision, indecisiveness, shilly-shallying or irresolutive behavior Ukraine must have great courage and nerves to get through this situation. Ukraine must dance on a thin chord between resolute hands, political pressure, military pressure or diplomacy. Every now and then the Ukrainian President, Prime Minister, Minister of Foreign Affairs and Defense will have to compromise and make concessions or agreements under domestic and foreign pressure that they would rather not make themselves, but which, in practice, dictate the situation.
Ukraine seems to have it all with it's proven recoverable reserves of uranium ores, it's large titanium ore and iron ore reservesr, it's explored reserves of manganese ores, it's mercury ore reserves, shale gas reserves, an excellent total value of natural resources and it's huge coal reserves (33.9 billion tons).
Ukraine is an agricultural country and if it would modernize and expand it's agricultural production with modern environmental safe green production methods it could have the largest Food processing Industry in the world and could also develop new Ukrainian products in a Unilever and Royal FrieslandCampina N.V. kind of food industrial companies. It's possession of black soil (Chernozem), fertile Loess (Löss) ground in combination with good agricultural techniques, farming, agricultural management, soil management and modern irrigation techniques and food industry will make Ukraine further a world player in food products. Since Ukraine has good ties with agricultural countries like the United States, Israel, the Netherlands, Germany and France with their modern farm techniques and agricultural management, Ukraine might advance further after the present troubles are over.
Look just at the figures Ron provide about the exports of sunflower and sunflower oil, barley production and barley exports, the production and export of corn and wheat, the huge production of potatoes and rye. The Ukrainian bee production (75,000 ton), the production of chicken eggs, cheese exports. The fact that Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600 million people. That is not nothing. That is more than the total population of the EU (447,007,596 people).
Ukraine is an industrialized country due to the Soviet heritage, and Ukraine managed to modernize the outdated Soviet industries, but also to maintain and modernize some of it's key sectors. For instance the Ukrainian Defense industry. I don't know if it is a good or a bad thing that Ukraine is 1st in Europe in ammonia production. Ammonia even at dilute concentrations is highly toxic to aquatic animals, and for this reason it is classified as dangerous for the environment. Atmospheric ammonia plays a key role in the formation of fine particulate matter.
That Ukraine has the Europe's 2-е and the world's 4th largest natural gas pipeline system (142.5 bln cubic meters of gas throughput capacity in the EU) is excellent, but how (in-) dependent is that from the Russian natural gas pipeline system? Is ask this, because Russia gas goes via Ukraine to Ukrainian cities and to Eastern-, Central- and Western-European countries. A war or a very heavy cold War could lead to a gass crisis in Europe. Ukraine's installed capacity of nuclear power plants is good for Ukraine's energy independence situation.
The rail network length is very important in connection to the future Asian-European trade route from China to the EU. The railway network between Europe and China is a key component of President Xi Jinping’s Belt and Road Initiative, which seeks to link Asia, Europe and Africa with a network of ports, motorways and railways. Ukraine, Russia, Europe and China will benefit from this Eurasian rail connection, but the Cold War in Ukraine, Central-Europe, the Baltic states, Belarus, the Russian Federation and the Black Sea region and the tension between China and the USA in the Philippine Sea, South Chinese Sea, the Japanese sea and the Pacific Ocean might block this effort for Asian & European trade.
Ukraine being in the 3rd place in the world (after the U.S. and France) in production of locators and locating equipment is very excellent and good for the Ukraine. Being the 3rd largest iron exporter in the world is quite a figure. It is important for Steelmaking, Iron compounds, plate steel or "structural steel" and Sheet metal for cars, vans, busses, trains, motorbikes, scooters, trucks, planes and tractors. Ukraine if it manages to have a diplomatic, mediating, problem solving, de-escalating, compromise making role in this conflict, could come well out of it if it makes good trade deals with the EU, the USA, China, Turkey (with it's growing economy and good ties with Ukraine), Israel and the rest of the world. Also Western Asian nations like South Korea, Japan and Taiwan which are Asian tigers.
If you look then further on Ron's list; 4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants in the world; 4th world's largest manufacturer of rocket launchers; 4th place in the world in clay exports 4th place in the world in titanium exports; 8th place in the world in exports of ores and concentrates; 9th place in the world in exports of defense industry products; and 10th largest steel producer in the world (32.4 million tons).
Ukraine is not doing it badly today. It is supported by it's allies Georgia, Turkey (Turkey has sold Ukraine significantly more of the armed drones that drew a rebuke from Russia than previously disclosed, with further deals in the pipeline.), Bulgaria, the Czech Republic (with it's Prague Spring 1968 heritage), the USA, Brazil, the United Kingdom (Great Britain), Poland, Denmark, the Netherlands, the Baltic States, Canada, France, NATO, EU, and it's own diplomatic efforts and defense measures by president Volodymyr Oleksandrovych Zelenskyy, prime minister Denys Anatoliyovych Shmyhal, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine Dmytro Ivanovych Kuleba (born on April 19, 1981 in Sumy) and Ukrainian diplomat, and Ukraine's Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary to the United Kingdom Vadym Prystaiko and the minister of Defence of Ukraine Oleksii Yuriyovych Reznikov (born 18 June 1966) and last but not least First Vice Prime Minister of Ukraine and simultaneously Minister of Economic Development and Trade of Ukraine Yulia Anatoliivna Svyrydenko (born December 25, 1985) .
President Volodymyr Oleksandrovych Zelenskyy
Prime minister Denys Anatoliyovych Shmyhal
Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine Dmytro Ivanovych Kuleba
Ukrainian diplomat, and Ukraine's Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary to the United Kingdom Vadym Prystaiko
First Vice Prime Minister of Ukraine and simultaneously Minister of Economic Development and Trade of Ukraine Yulia Anatoliivna Svyrydenko
I hope for Ukraine that the country will obtain top class (the best) NATO arms to defend itself, next to it's own arms from the Ukrainian defence industry. Anti-tank weapons, Air defence missile systems like the Israeli air defense system Iron Dome (Hebrew: כִּפַּת בַּרְזֶל, romanized: Kippat Barzel), American tanks, artillery, fighter jets, war planes, American Boeing AH-64 Apache twin-turboshaft attack helicopters, "intelligent ammunition, artillery systems, combat vehicle turrets, naval gun and air defence gun systems.", the M777 howitzer, Challenger 2 main battle tanks and the CV90 infantry fighting vehicles, and allied help in modernising and advancing the Ukrainian defense industry. To get a more balanced situation Ukraine should expands it's defense budget, Ukrainian army and the National Guard. If you look today, according to Al Jazeera English the Russian military spending in 2020 amounted to $61.7bn in 2020; Ukraine’s was less than a 10th of that at $5.9bn, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. NATO should step up it's troop build up in the Baltic States, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, and the Pro-Western Georgia. The Western military alliance should test Turkey by sending NATO troops to Turkey to strenghen the Turkish NATO Border with the Russian allies Syria, Iran, Armenia (the Russian 102nd Military Base in Gyumri, Armenia, under the command of the Southern Military District of the Russian Armed Forces) and Egypt (Russia supports Syrian government in the Syrian civil war, and intervened militarily in its favor in 2015. Egypt also supports the Syrian government in the Civil War. In 2020, Egypt has reportedly dispatched 150 troops to help Syrian government. Egypt is openly backing House of Representatives in the ongoing Libyan Civil War, while the Russian mercenary organization Wagner Group is assisting the House of Representatives' forces.). Another danger is Russian infiltration, Agitprop, indoctrination and pressure on the Israeli administration, politicians and people. The largest number of Russian Jews now live in Israel. Israel is home to a core Russian-Jewish population of 900,000, and an enlarged population of 1,200,000 (including halakhically non-Jewish members of Jewish households, but excluding those who reside in Israel illegally). The Ukrainian community of Israel is also significant and this can lead to ethnic tensions and political conflicts in this Jewish state.
Back to the subject. I don't understand why NATO doesn't show strength and doesn't sents huge troop concentrations to the Baltic States, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Georgia and Turkey's borders with the Black sea, Syria, Iraq and Armenia. I want to say not in an act of aggression or anti-Armenian move, but because of the presence of the Russian 102nd Military Base in Gyumri, Armenia. You must have a firm, closed front as Western military alliance. And you must use three tools of strength;
1) - A robust diplomacy on bilateral (Ukrainian-Russian talks via telephone, in Minsk Belarus, Kyiv or Moscow), NATO-Russian, EU-Russian) and multilateral (Ukrainian-French-Russian round table talks, Uikrainian-Polish-German-US-Russian round table talks, Ukrainian-British-Russian round table talks in London) levels. 2) - Military might. A strengthened Ukrainian armed forces and defence system and a large presence of NATO in Central- and Eastern Europe, the Black sea region and the Caucasus. 3)- Heavy sanctions for Russia if the Russians attack Ukraine and occupy Ukrainian territory.
My preference goes to a combination of the First 2 options, to avoid the third option which would be very bad for Russia and European nations with strong trade ties with Russia (including Ukraine and Poland).
Cheers, Pieter
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Ukraine
Feb 13, 2022 18:18:12 GMT -7
Post by karl on Feb 13, 2022 18:18:12 GMT -7
Pieter
I do try to be nice in the subject of Ukraine, but then, for why? Although in short past I have had several good Ukrainian friends and they are for the most part, very nice people. It is just the Ukrainian Govenment that I am not a friend of for all that it seems to enjoy more then their share of koruption in most levels. With this, they are very clever, for they have managed to turn the Americans {NATO} and Russians against one another and with this, to receive a considerable amount of combat supplies and equipment from the Americans.
Karl
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Ukraine
Feb 14, 2022 0:03:08 GMT -7
via mobile
Post by pieter on Feb 14, 2022 0:03:08 GMT -7
Dear Karl,
I have a honest question here. You talk about corruption in the Ukraine, isn’t the same the case in the Russian Federation and Belarus?
Wikipedia writes; Corruption is perceived as a significant problem in Russia, impacting various aspects of life, including the economy, business, public administration, law enforcement, healthcare,and education. The phenomenon of corruption is strongly established in the historical model of public governance, and attributed to general weakness of rule of law in the country. Russia was the lowest rated European country in Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index for 2020; ranking 129th out of 180 countries.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Russia#:~:text=Russia%20was%20the%20lowest%20rated,129th%20out%20of%20180%20countries.
It is true that Ukraine 🇺🇦 is a corrupt country as well. Corruption is widespread in Ukrainian society. In 2012 Ernst & Young put Ukraine among the three most-corrupt nations of the world - alongside Colombia and Brazil. In 2015 The Guardian called Ukraine "the most corrupt nation in Europe".
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine#:~:text=According%20to%20a%20poll%20conducted,lowest%20in%20Europe%2C%20after%20Russia.
Corruption is present at all government levels in Belarus; customs, public procurement, and construction are particularly vulnerable sectors. Companies are likely to face discrimination and corruption in public procurement in favor of state-owned enterprises, and making informal payments or giving gifts to secure government contracts are common practices when doing business in the country.
www.ganintegrity.com/portal/country-profiles/belarus/
Thank you for your reply Karl.
Cheers, Pieter
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Ukraine
Feb 14, 2022 19:02:39 GMT -7
Post by karl on Feb 14, 2022 19:02:39 GMT -7
Pieter Of course you are most correct in the manner of corruption also in Russia, it appears my not so nice replies of Ukraine was not taken lightly, but that is ok, this is how we winnie out the wheat from the chaff. On a personal level, I have in past good friends with both Ukrainians and Russons alike, both I found easy to discuss of the last war and of various topics of the present. Many or perhaps more correctly, some Ukrainians had first immigrated to Chicago USA and then re-Immigrated to Mexico, my self never questioned their reasons as felt this was not of my business to ask. nationalpost.com/news/world/cost-of-corruption-in-russia-where-police-are-openly-taking-1000-bribes-and-grocery-bills-are-raisedKarl
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Ukraine
Feb 15, 2022 10:46:15 GMT -7
Post by pieter on Feb 15, 2022 10:46:15 GMT -7
Karl,
For Germans, Dutch people, Danes and other Scandinavians the corruption of Central- and Eastern-Europe is a strange phenomenon, which is less part of our culture, but unfortunately corruption, bribery, criminal fraud, clientelism, nepotism, embezzlement, money laundering, and the so called 'incentive payments', blackmail and theft of public property and public funds due to large scale corruption takes place everywhere. But it is unfortunately an integral part of the Ukrainian-, Russian- and Belarussian societies. Tot the regret, irritation, frustration and anger of honest and decent Ukrainians, Russians and Belarussions. Honest people don't like corruption and nepotism.
GermanyGermany’s ability to ensure integrity and to prevent corruption in state bodies is generally sufficient due to a strong institutional setup. The trust in the ethical standards of German politicians is relatively high amongst German citizens and voters. Irregular payments and bribes only rarely take place in relation to public services in Germany. However Transparency International’s Global Corruption Barometer 2013 reveals that political parties and businesses are the most corrupt institutions in Germany. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Germany )AustriaAustria has a well-developed institutional and legal system, and most corruption cases under investigation by a parliamentary committee end with judicial trials and effective judgments. However, there are several significant Austrian corruption cases which have taken place during the past decade involving land and regional officials, high-level public officials, the central government and, in one instance, the former Chancellor.
In most cases, corrupt practices were related to conflicts of interest, abuse of office, money laundering and influence peddling. The corruption scandals have put into doubt the ethical standards of the political elite. This doubt is reflected in the findings of Eurobarometer 2012, where two-thirds of respondents perceive national politicians to be corrupt and also the most corrupt institution in Austria.
Transparency International's 2017 Corruption Perception Index ranks the country 16th place out of 180. According to the Global Competitiveness Report 2013–2014, favouritism among government officials towards well-connected companies and individuals is a competitive disadvantage for the country. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Austria )SwitzerlandPetty corruption and low level bribes are uncommon and the courts are generally seen as fair and impartial. Very few Swiss citizens consider police or judicial corruption to be widespread. Switzerland is a signatory to the OECD Anti-Bribery Convention and other international anti-corruption laws. Companies generally do not consider corruption a problem for doing business in Switzerland. However, the Swiss banking industry is seen as extremely non-transparent with secrecy laws that can allow tax evasion, money laundering and hiding illegally obtained money. Additionally, political party financing is poorly regulated and open to abuse.The Netherlands Corruption is rare in the Netherlands in all major areas—judiciary, police, business, politics—as the country is considered one of the least corrupt within the European Union. In the 2017 edition of Transparency International’s Corruption Perceptions Index, the Netherlands ranked the 8th least corrupt country worldwide. The Netherlands has established strong pillars—an independent judiciary, effective anti-corruption mechanisms and a culture of trust—that all combine to create a society where corruption is not considered a serious problem. The government has dedicated large efforts towards keeping corruption within the country at low levels, yet limitations are perceived in some areas. The public sector is not perceived to be corrupt and transparency within the sector is safeguarded by codes of conducts for civil servants, with a special focus on integrity within their sectors, according to the National Integrity System Assessment 2012.
( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_the_Netherlands )DenmarkCorruption in Denmark is amongst the lowest in the world. According to the 2018 Corruption Perceptions Index from Transparency International, Denmark ranks first place out of 180 countries and it has consistently been in the top-4 since the publication of the first report in 1995.
Moreover, Transparency International's Global Corruption Barometer 2013 shows that the public does not consider corruption a major problem in Danish society, and bribes paid to access public benefits and services are virtually non-existent. USACorruption in the United States is a growing problem across many areas, particularly in the political sphere. In 2020, Transparency International ranked the United States as the 25th-least-corrupt country (of 180 countries ranked), falling from 18th since 2016. This ranking places the United States between Bhutan (24) and Chile (26) on corrupt practices in government and other institutions. In 2019, Transparency International stated that the United States is "experiencing threats to its system of checks and balances", along with an "erosion of ethical norms at the highest levels of power". ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_the_United_States )CanadaOverall, corruption in Canada is low compared to most other countries worldwide. Transparency International's 2019 Corruption Perception Index ranks Canada as the 12th least corrupt nation out of 180 countries, a drop from 9th in 2016. However, corruption has been an increasingly large problem in government, industry and non-governmental organizations over the past decade. For instance, in 2013, the World Bank blacklisted SNC-Lavalin and its subsidiaries from "bidding on its global projects under its fraud and corruption policy" due to the Padma Bridge scandal. Canada also ranks at the bottom of the bribery-fighting rankings with "little or no enforcement of anti-bribery measures". The 2014 Ernst & Young global fraud survey found that "twenty percent of Canadian executives believe bribery and corruption are widespread in this country".PolandCorruption in Poland is below the world average but not insignificant. Within Poland, surveys of Polish citizens reveal that it is perceived to be a major problem. Poland has fallen to its lowest ever position in the annual corruption index produced by Transparency International. Since reaching its highest position of 29th in 2015, Poland has now fallen to 45th, below Costa Rica and Botswana. A 2013 survey in Poland found that 83% of surveyed Polish citizens think that corruption is a major problem for their country, particularly prevalent among politicians (62 percent) and in the health-care sector (53 percent). A growing number of citizens (57%) is concerned that there is no political will to fight corruption.The Czech RepublicCorruption in the Czech Republic is considered to be widespread by a majority of the Czech public, according to Transparency International’s Global Corruption Barometer 2013. A series of political corruption cases has damaged the image of Nečas’ administration (see corruption cases below), which is reflected in Transparency International’s Global Corruption Barometer 2013, which reveals that 73% of the surveyed Czechs consider political parties to be “corrupt” or “extremely corrupt”.
In the World Economic Forum’s Global Competitiveness Report 2013-2014, surveyed business executives cite corruption as the most problematic factor for doing business in the country. According to Ernst & Young’s 2012 Global Fraud Survey, 80% of surveyed companies perceive bribery and corruption to be widespread in the business sector, and fewer than 10% state that between 2009 and 2011 their companies “very frequently/always” conducted due diligence on fraud and corruption-related risks before or after acquiring a new business.
Although the business environment is characterised by a clear set of rules and little interference, corruption remains an obstacle to doing business in public procurement, awarding of subsidies and direct interactions between public and private sectors.SlovakiaTransparency International’s Global Corruption Barometer 2013 indicates that corruption remains a serious problem in Slovakia. High-profile corruption cases have plagued the country, including the “Gorilla” case that surfaced at the end of 2011. In this case, secret wiretap recordings between 2005 and 2006 were leaked to the internet, bringing to light millions of Euros in bribes paid by a private equity firm to Slovakian government officials in exchange for privatisation and procurement deals.
According to Global Corruption Barometer 2013, political parties rank as the third most corrupt institution in Slovakia, after the judiciary and public servants, and 56% of surveyed households believe the level of corruption in the country has “increased a lot” in the past two years. In order to combat corruption in the country, Slovakia has initiated several corruption reforms in recent years, including the creation of a central contract registry and publishing online all government contracts.
Transparency International's 2017 Corruption Perception Index ranks the country 54th place out of 180 countries. In August 2019, the Council of Europe’s Group of States against Corruption (GRECO) urged Slovakia to make more progress on the effectiveness of its legal framework and policies to stop corruption among employees with top executive positions and the police force.
Corruption is ranked as the second most problematic factor for doing business in Slovakia, according to the World Economic Forum’s, after inefficient government bureaucracy. Surveyed business executives report that public funds are often diverted to companies, individuals or groups due to corruption, and the lack of ethical behaviour by companies in their interactions with public officials, politicians and other companies represents a serious business disadvantage for the country.
Companies consider the occurrence of irregular payments and bribes to be fairly common in connection with imports and exports, public utilities, annual tax payment, and awarding of public contracts and licences or obtaining favourable judicial decisions.HungaryCorruption in Hungary is one of the highest for a European Union member state.In 2019, Freedom House downgraded Hungary's status from Free to Partly Free "due to sustained attacks on the country’s democratic institutions by Prime Minister Viktor Orbán’s Fidesz party, which has used its parliamentary supermajority to impose restrictions on or assert control over the opposition, the media, religious groups, academia, NGOs, the courts, asylum seekers, and the private sector since 2010". This was the first time a member of the European Union was designated as Partly Free. In response the Hungarian government stated that "Freedom House is a member of the Soros-empire, is funded by Soros, and is now supporting Soros's electoral campaign. They are attacking Hungary with other Soros-organisations because the Hungarians have decided that they do not want their country to become a migrant haven."
In Transparency International's 2018 Corruption Perceptions Index, Hungary decreased by eight points over the last six years, becoming the country with the 64th least amount of perceived corruption.RomaniaCorruption in Romania is considered a major problem. According to Transparency International's annual Corruption Perceptions Index, as of 2020, Romania is the 69th least corrupt country out of 180 countries (at par with Senegal and Hungary), up from 70th place in 2018, and the third most corrupt in the European Union (after Bulgaria and Hungary, respectively). In the 2014 EU Anti-Corruption Report, 57% of the Romanians were most likely to say they are personally affected by corruption (at par with Cyprus). Corruption can be found both in the public sector and in private businesses, and poses concerns for foreign investors. Although there have been improvements since the late 1990s, corruption remains a problem in Romania as it is especially found on all levels of public office, in the police force as well as in the judiciary system.
Generally, despite efforts using laws and regulations to prevent corruption, enforcement has been weak. Since 2014 however, the investigation and prosecution of medium- and high-level political, judicial and administrative officials by the National Anticorruption Directorate has increased. The National Anticorruption Directorate was established in 2002 by the Romanian government to investigate and prosecute corruption related offenses causing damage to the Romanian state.
In terms of scandals, corruption was cited among many issues that provoked the 2012–15 social unrest, the 2015 protests following the Colectiv nightclub fire, and the 2017 protests. In 2019, the European Commission threatened to take "punitive measures" against Romania for its corruption problems.MoldovaThe government in Moldova has in recent years taken several steps to fight corruption, including law enforcement and institutional setups. The prosecution of officials who are involved in corruption has also increased in recent years. However, businesses consider corruption a serious problem for doing business, and the business environment continues to be one of the most challenging in the region.
Transparency International's 2017 Corruption Perception Index ranks the country 122nd place out of 180 countries. According to Transparency International, 37% of Moldovans report paying a bribe in 2010. One of the most perceived corrupt institutions is the police.
A large anti-corruption protest was held in Chișinău in September 2015 following a $1 billion (£655 million) bank fraud.
On 19 April 2021, the Council of Europe Action Plan for the Republic of Moldova 2021–2024 was signed in Strasbourg, France. It is an action plan which, among other things, aims to combat corruption in the country.LithuaniaCorruption remains an issue in Lithuania, but gives high score for the main related areas: strong and effective safeguards against official corruption (3 out of 4), government openness and transparency (3 out of 4), independent judiciary (3 out of 4).
European Research Centre for Anti-Corruption and State-Building (ERCAS) notes that while Lithuania has a comprehensive anti-corruption legal base established, the law enforcement institutions are weak. In the Public Integrity Index 2019, published by the centre, Lithuania ranks 30th out of 117 countries.
Corruption is a moderate impediment to business in Lithuania, but small and medium enterprises (SMEs) can be vulnerable to bribery and extortion, largely due to the pervasiveness of red tape and inefficient government bureaucracy. Public procurement and public services are the sectors most affected by corruption, and the country’s shadow economy undermines fair competition. Corruption in GeorgiaCorruption in Georgia had been an issue in the post-Soviet decades. Before the 2003 Rose Revolution, according to Foreign Policy, Georgia was among the most corrupt nations in all Eurasia. The level of corruption abated dramatically, however, after the revolution. In 2010, Transparency International (TI) said that Georgia was "the best corruption-buster in the world." Low-level corruption has been virtually eliminated in recent years. Transparency International's 2017 Corruption Perception Index ranks the country 46th place out of 180 countries.
In January 2012, the World Bank called Georgia a "unique success" of the world in fighting corruption. Philippe Le Houérou said that "Georgia's experience shows that the vicious cycle of endemic corruption can be broken and, with appropriate and decisive reforms, can be turned into a virtuous cycle." Georgia is "the only post-Soviet state in the past decade to have made a breakthrough" in addressing corruption, according to Foreign Policy.
Council of Europe's Group of States Against Corruption in its fourth evaluation round noted that Georgia has largely succeeded in eradicating petty corruption, however it is also argued that corruption has changed shape in Georgia in recent years. For example, a 'clientelistic system' has emerged where the country's leadership 'allocates resources in order to generate the loyalty and support it needs to stay in power.The danger of stereotypes and the difference between reality and fictionDue to the Cold War, West vs East, Capitalism & Democracy in the West and Communism and Totalitarism (the dictatorship of the proletariat) in Central- and Eastern-Europe, we in Western-Europe and the United Kingdom developped an idea about Central- Europe and Eastern-Europe which exists until today. The Central-Europe behind the Old Iron Curtain and Real Eastern Europe is combined in a sum, and called Eastern-Europe in Western-Europe and people from that area are called Eastern-Europeans. That said there is immidiately a 'negative connotation' towards these terms Eastern-Europe. How? Whell in the sense that Western-Europe is the better part of Europe beloning to the West and Eastern-Europe is the lesser part of Europe.
Eastern-Europe in that connotation is immidiately labeled or marked as an area with a Despotic, Serfdom, barbaric, brutal, primitive, totalitarian, authoritarian, dark past of Tartar invasions, Ivan the Terrible, boyars (bolyars), Black hordes, pillaging, murdering and raping cossacks, primitive peasants, Fundamentalist Christians, Alcoholic slavs, a terrible combination of fascism and communism in a new form of Ultra-Nationalism, Ultra-conservatism and xenophobia. And in that twisted so called Western-European mindset that Eastern-Europe is automatically connected to corruption, bribery, criminal fraud, clientelism, nepotism, embezzlement, money laundering, and the so called 'incentive payments', blackmail and theft of public property and public funds due to large scale corruption.
Over en over again I have experienced racism, discrimination and xenophobia towards Central- and Eastern-Europeans which is connected to the false idea that Eastern-Europeans are thieves, robbers, pick pockets, liars, rapists, no-good, corrupt, clientelist, fraudulent, bribing, racketeering, blackmailing and threatening primitive brutes. That said there are also many West-Europeans who are complementary about hard working and nice Poles, good Ukrainian cleaning ladies, Hungarian inellectuals, Russian musicians, Czech entrepreneurs (also Polish ones by the way), professional sport people of Slavic countries, new products from Slavic countries (Skoda cars from the Czech Republic -cheaper, but good Volkswagen rolling chassis with a Skoda Coachbuilders, Polish Modern Trolly Busses, Modern trams -FPS "Cegielski", Konstal, Newag, Pesa Bydgoszcz, Solaris and Modertrans-, Jelcz busses, trucks and trolley buses, and the former Fabryka Samochodów Ciężarowych "Star" (FSC Star) company, now part of the German MAN SE company.
Back to corruption. In Western-Europe when the name Georgia (in the Caucasus), Chechenia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Azerbajian, the Russian Federation, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania and Bulgaria falls people still connect that to corruption, a primitive economy, shabby towns and cities, terribly poorly maintained streets, roads, highways with potholes, dangerous traffic, traffic accidents, insecurity, truck drivers who are ambushed by criminal gangs, robbed of their cargo and sometimes of their lives. There are all kinds of strange ideas about Eastern Europe in Western Europe. And keep in mind that that Western Europe is West Germanic, North Germanic (Scandinavian or Latin Romance. And these Western Europeans look at the Slavic, Hungarian, Romanian, Baltic, Bulgarian, Asian and Eurasian Russians with Western eyes and a Western mindset. Behind this lies the contrast between "European" Western Europe and "Eurasian" Eastern Europe. The Asian Bolshevik godless danger emanating from the East used to be pointed out. There is another element of this in today's conflict between East and West The Slavic peoples, culture and identity is something unknown to many Western Europeans and unknown makes unloved.
The fact is that corruption, nepotism, clientelism, fraud and bribery and despotism is still a problem in 'certain' Slavic and Romanian countries.
The reality of Western-Europe is different than the East-Europeans think that Western-Europe is and Eastern-Europe isn't what the Western-European media, politicians, educators and people make of it.
Unfortunately, there is a mutual misunderstanding, lack of knowledge and lack of empathy with the other that keeps the antithesis between Western Europe and Eastern Europe and Central Europe is forever stuck between the West and East. And that is the drama and tragedy of Europe and the real 'Untergang des Abendlandes' of Oswald Arnold Gottfried Spengler (* 29. Mai 1880 in Blankenburg am Harz; † 8. Mai 1936 in Munich).
I conclude by saying Karl you are right 'It is just the Ukrainian Govenment that I am not a friend of for all that it seems to enjoy more then their share of koruption in most levels.'.
Cheers, Pieter
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Ukraine
Feb 15, 2022 11:28:38 GMT -7
Post by karl on Feb 15, 2022 11:28:38 GMT -7
Pieter
I must say, you have struck the nail directly upon the head with your research and professional approach to this subject of corruption in the Eastern States. Not for the reason you have agreed with me, but for bringing the truth, for truth speaks for its self.
Karl
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Ukraine
Feb 15, 2022 21:24:20 GMT -7
Post by Jaga on Feb 15, 2022 21:24:20 GMT -7
Karl,
I am curious what is the source of this post, although I agree that Ukraine is warning other countries of not elevating the thread, some information from this post seems like a "double agent" sword. It suggest that if Russia invades Ukraine OTHER countries are to blame, not Russia.
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Ukraine
Feb 16, 2022 10:38:38 GMT -7
Post by karl on Feb 16, 2022 10:38:38 GMT -7
Jaga
The information was posted here as a courtesy to forum members only. I hold no vested interest in either the American side, Polish side, Russian side or Ukrainian. The site was not American but one on occasion I access. Before the site closed, was my self some difficulty down loading for transfer to this site and for that reason of no url for access, I have removed it as it appears to be oversensitive. My only interest is in information.
For the reason of Western interest in this apparent sensitive situation, it needs for my self to refrain from this topic. At this time, the American administration is pushing very hard in their political battle against Russian interest making it difficult for some smaller publications to enter any information other then following the American line and so goes our known world.
Karl
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Ukraine
Feb 16, 2022 12:13:55 GMT -7
Post by kaima on Feb 16, 2022 12:13:55 GMT -7
On the Edge of a Polish Forest, Where Some of Putin’s Darkest Fears Lurk A U.S. missile facility in Poland is at the heart of an issue animating the Kremlin’s calculations over whether to go to war against Ukraine.Decommissioned Soviet-era warplanes outside a U.S. base in the village of Redzikowo, Poland. Decommissioned Soviet-era warplanes outside a U.S. base in the village of Redzikowo, Poland.Credit...Maciek Nabrdalik for The New York Times Andrew Higgins By Andrew Higgins Feb. 16, 2022 Updated 10:20 a.m. ET REDZIKOWO, Poland — Tomasz Czescik, a Polish archaeologist and television journalist, walks his dog each morning through a forest near his home here on NATO’s eastern flank, wandering along the edge of a green chain-link fence topped with razor wire. He enjoys the fresh air and morning quiet — until loudspeakers on the other side of the fence, strung with “Keep Out” signs in Polish, English, German and Russian, start blasting “The Star -Spangled Banner” at high volume. “I don’t know anyone who has ever been inside there,” Mr. Czescik said, pointing across the fence toward a cluster of haze-shrouded buildings in the distance. The fence is the outer perimeter, guarded by Polish soldiers, of a highly sensitive U.S. military installation, expected to be operational this year, which Washington insists will help defend Europe and the United States from ballistic missiles fired by rogue states like Iran. But for President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, the military base in Poland, and another in Romania, are evidence of what he sees as the threat posed by NATO’s eastward expansion — and part of his justification for his military encirclement of Ukraine. The Pentagon describes the two sites as defensive and unrelated to Russia, but the Kremlin believes they could be used to shoot down Russian rockets or to fire offensive cruise missiles at Moscow. As he threatens Ukraine, Mr. Putin has demanded that NATO reduce its military footprint in Eastern and Central Europe — which Washington and European leaders have flatly refused to do. Mr. Putin has been fuming about American missiles near Russia’s border since the Romanian site went into operation in 2016, but the Polish facility, located near the village of Redzikowo, is only about 100 miles from Russian territory and barely 800 miles from Moscow itself. The perimeter fence at the U.S. base in Redzikowo. The facility is expected to be operational this year. The perimeter fence at the U.S. base in Redzikowo. The facility is expected to be operational this year.Credit...Maciek Nabrdalik for The New York Times “Are we deploying missiles near the U.S. border? No, we are not. It is the United States that has come to our home with its missiles and is already standing at our doorstep,” Mr. Putin said in December at his annual news conference. The Polish base, the heart of which is a system known as Aegis Ashore, contains sophisticated radars capable of tracking hostile missiles and guiding interceptor rockets to knock them out of the sky. It is also equipped with missile launchers known as MK 41s, which the Russians worry can be easily repurposed to fire offensive missiles like the Tomahawk. For villagers in Redzikowo, the idea that they are living at the forefront of Mr. Putin’s oft-stated security concerns has already caused jitters for some local residents. Ryszard Kwiatkowski, a civil engineer who works in construction, said a customer who reserved an apartment in a new block his company is building recently called to cancel her planned purchase because of worries that Russia could strike the missile defense facility at Redzikowo and send property values through the floor. Nobody really thinks that is likely — it would put Russia into direct conflict with NATO, of which Poland has been a member since 1999. But assumptions of a unified and peaceful Europe that took hold with the end of the Cold War are crumbling as Russian troops mass on the border with Ukraine and the United States sends thousands of additional soldiers to Poland. Mr. Kwiatkowski, who took part in protests against the American facility at Redzikowo when it was announced in 2016, said Russia had stoked unease by exaggerating the threat posed by NATO. But, he added, both sides have created “a self-propelling machine of fear” fueled by nerve-jangling uncertainty over what the other is up to. Ryszard Kwiatkowski took part in protests against the U.S. facility when it was announced in 2016. Ryszard Kwiatkowski took part in protests against the U.S. facility when it was announced in 2016.Credit...Maciek Nabrdalik for The New York Times Thomas Graham, who served as senior director for Russia on President George W. Bush’s National Security Council, said Moscow had never believed Washington’s assurances that its missile defense system was aimed at Iran, not Russia. The issue, he added, had become a powerful symbol for the Kremlin of a post-Cold War order that it views as dangerously one-sided and which it is now trying to revise through military threats. “The current crisis is really much broader than Ukraine,” Mr. Graham said, “Ukraine is a leverage point but it is more about Poland, Romania and the Baltics. The Russians think it is time to revise the post-Cold War settlement in Europe in their favor.” In a meeting with Mr. Putin on Monday, Russia’s foreign minister, Sergey V. Lavrov emphasized that Russia wanted to see “radical changes in the sphere of European security,” far-reaching changes that go beyond just Ukraine to include a pullback of NATO troops now in Eastern Europe, limits on the deployment of offensive weaponry and restrictions on intermediate range missiles. But shutting down the Redzikowo site, as Moscow wants, he added, is a “red line” that the United States and Poland will not cross, though NATO, in response to a list of demands made by Moscow in December, recently offered discussion of an unspecified “transparency mechanism” in the hope of calming Russian concerns over the Polish and Romanian sites. But Moscow wants much more than that. Missile defense has long been viewed by Russia as a dangerous American attempt to degrade the main guarantor of its great power status — a vast nuclear arsenal. The possibility that the United States could shoot down Russian ballistic missiles undermines the deterrent doctrine of mutually assured destruction, which posits that neither of the two biggest nuclear powers would ever risk a nuclear war because it would mean both get annihilated. During the Cold War, Russia and the United States both worked on developing antimissile defenses, but agreed in 1972 to abandon their rocket shield programs so as to preserve mutual vulnerability and, they hoped, peace. Soviet military graves at a cemetery in Redzikowo. During the Cold War, Russia and the United States both worked on developing antimissile defenses, but agreed in 1972 to abandon their rocket shield programs. Soviet military graves at a cemetery in Redzikowo. During the Cold War, Russia and the United States both worked on developing antimissile defenses, but agreed in 1972 to abandon their rocket shield programs.Credit...Maciek Nabrdalik for The New York Times It worked for nearly 30 years. But, at the end of Mr. Putin’s first year as president in December 2001, President George W. Bush infuriated the new Russian leader by pulling out of the 1972 Antiballistic Missile Treaty and directing the Pentagon to build a system to ward off the possible threat of missiles from Iran. The U.S. withdrawal from what had been a cornerstone of superpower relations for decades has since been cited repeatedly by the Kremlin as the start of its disenchantment with the United States and Mr. Putin’s belief that Russian interests are being needlessly trampled. “We tried for a long time to persuade our partners not to do this,” Mr. Putin said this month in the Kremlin. “Nevertheless, the U.S. did what it did — withdrew from the treaty. Now antiballistic missile launchers are deployed in Romania and are being set up in Poland.” A spike in hostilities. Russia has been gradually building up forces near its border with Ukraine, and the Kremlin’s messaging toward its neighbor has hardened. Concern grew in late October, when Ukraine used an armed drone to attack a howitzer operated by Russian-backed separatists. Preventing an invasion. Russia called the strike a destabilizing act that violated the cease-fire agreement, raising fears of a new intervention in Ukraine. Since then, the United States, NATO and Russia have been engaged in a whirlwind of diplomacy aimed at averting that outcome. The Kremlin’s position. President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, who has increasingly portrayed NATO’s eastward expansion as an existential threat to his country, said that Moscow’s growing military presence on the Ukrainian border was a response to Ukraine’s deepening partnership with the alliance. Rising tension. Western countries have tried to maintain a dialogue with Moscow. But the Biden administration warned that the U.S. could throw its weight behind Ukraine in case of an invasion. France, Germany and Poland also warned Russia of consequences if it launched incursions into Ukraine. Should Ukraine draw closer to NATO, Mr. Putin thundered, “it will be filled with weapons. Modern offensive weapons will be deployed on its territory just like in Poland and Romania.” The Aegis Ashore site in Romania has been operating for five years without incident, but Russia views the Polish missile defense facility, previously stalled by construction and other problems, as a more serious menace. The weapons system was installed last summer in the facility, which is scheduled to start working sometime this year, Rear Admiral Tom Druggan, the program’s director, said in November. “It is specifically not focused on threats out of Russia, despite what they say,” he said. A house under construction near the base. For villagers in Redzikowo, the idea that they are living at the forefront of Mr. Putin’s oft-stated security concerns has already stirred jitters. A house under construction near the base. For villagers in Redzikowo, the idea that they are living at the forefront of Mr. Putin’s oft-stated security concerns has already stirred jitters.Credit...Maciek Nabrdalik for The New York Times American assurances that only Iran need worry, however, were undermined during the Trump administration when the president stated that U.S. missile defense systems would “detect and destroy any missile launched against the United States anywhere, anytime, anyplace.” Washington has also struggled to convince Mr. Putin that its two missile defense sites in Eastern Europe do not also have an offensive capability that could easily be turned against Russian targets. Responding to Russian complaints, NATO declared last month that interceptor missiles deployed at Aegis Ashore sites “cannot undermine Russian strategic deterrence capabilities” and “cannot be used for offensive purposes.” It added that the interceptors contained no explosives and could not hit ground targets, only airborne objects. “In addition, the site lacks the software, the hardware and infrastructure needed to launch offensive missiles,” NATO said. Some independent experts, however, believe that while requiring a rejiggering of software and other changes, the MK 41 launchers installed in Poland and Romania can fire not only defensive interceptors but also offensive missiles. Matt Korda, an analyst at the Federation of American Scientists, said that “without visual inspections, there is no way to determine whether or not this Tomahawk-specific hardware and software have been installed at the Aegis Ashore sites in Europe.” In the village of Redzikowo. Washington has struggled to convince Russia that its missile defense sites in Eastern Europe do not also have an offensive capability that could easily be turned against Russian targets. In the village of Redzikowo. Washington has struggled to convince Russia that its missile defense sites in Eastern Europe do not also have an offensive capability that could easily be turned against Russian targets.Credit...Maciek Nabrdalik for The New York Times So far only American military personnel have been allowed anywhere near the launchers or their control units. The U.S. Navy, which operates the Aegis Ashore site in Poland, did not respond to a request by The New York Times for a visit. Beata Jurys, the elected head of Redzikowo, said she had never been inside the facility, installed on the grounds of a former Polish air force base and a shuttered civilian airport, and does not follow technical arguments over what missiles can be fired from behind the fence near her house. But, no matter who is telling the truth, Ms. Jurys said, the finger-pointing by Moscow and Washington has made the village a potential target in the event of war. “If something happens, we will be the first to know, unfortunately,” she said. Anatol Magdziarz contributed reporting from Warsaw.
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Ukraine
Feb 17, 2022 22:15:55 GMT -7
Post by Jaga on Feb 17, 2022 22:15:55 GMT -7
Pieter, yes, indeed, Ukrainians were very fierce, but lets just talk about the present time, not about the past. All people and nationalities can go to the extreme. I guess, my idea is that right now Russia is a problem... by the way Russian army is in Belarus and they are not going to leave soon. So, Russia already owns Belarus to the large extend, Russian parliament is also voting officially to incorporate the occupied area of Ukraine to Russia. So lets talk about what is happening now. If we go to the past, we would find violence in every nationality in certain times Jaga, Poles, Russians, Afghans, Chechens and others are fierce as well. Fighting for independence does not mean that you have to be crual, commit war crimes and be inhumane. Slaughtering Poles and Jews have nothing to do with Independence. They had a policy of ethnic cleansing in their area's of Volhynia and Galicia. Other Ukrainians hid Poles and Jews for murdering, raping and looting gangs of UPA soldiers and officers. What did these innocent Polish women, children, elderly and men had to do with Ukrainian independence. Other Ukrainains fought in the Red army, were NKVD member, Soviet partisans and etc. The Second World War in Central- and Eastern-Europe was complicated due to all the factors, parties, groups, fractions (factions), militia's different armies and war criminals (German and Austrian nazi, Soviet Russian and Ukrainian, Ukrainian Nazi collaborators and etc.) www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/1941-nkvd-prison-massacres-western-ukraineThis link (URL) is a good explanation of your statement "Ukrainians are fierce and they were allied with Nazi, but this was also for the independence." It is true that many peoples in times of Independence struggle can be fierce, fanatic, cruel and inhumane towards people whom they consider alien to their territory, claimed lands and historical ancestral home. Cheers, Pieter
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Ukraine
Feb 17, 2022 22:21:50 GMT -7
Post by Jaga on Feb 17, 2022 22:21:50 GMT -7
Kai, referring to your article about after-soviet artifacts - and American troops. Soviet military was stationed in Western and Northern Poland, mainly in the area which were given to Poland after WW II. RIght now American forces go to Southeastern Poland, which is actually the poorest area - in a way this might improve the economy there, still seeing foreign forces in Poland, whatever these forces are is a bit disturbing
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